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The official "Theta" thread - Page 158

post #4711 of 6787
News of a new Theta processor does not curb my interest in the Casablanca, which is still on my list as being 'the one.' I will look into the new processor just to see what it's about, but I doubt that Theta will put all of it's Casablanca technology into the new model, or else it would just be a smaller and cheaper version of what's already available. I'm interested in the Casablanca for its pretty much no-compromise approach. How the other one stacks up is yet to be seen (heard).
post #4712 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by stieger View Post

folks, I backed off my order of the CB3, I'll leave it at that. Can you guys give me any info on the new supernova unit other than what's above? Does it have Dirac? How does it differ functionality/features from the CB3HD?

thanks all,

Stieger
Yes it will have Dirac Live.
post #4713 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Yes it will have Dirac Live.

nice, but where are the differences with CB3 ?
post #4714 of 6787
I was just trying to find the most recent estimate of availability of Dirac on a CB III.
post #4715 of 6787
I'm hearing not until after summer
post #4716 of 6787
Wow! They make it really hard to buy their products these days. I sold my CB years ago waiting for HDMI upgrade and now keep waiting for room correction which I won't do without. I'll check back this fall!

Thanks for the update!
post #4717 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Wow! They make it really hard to buy their products these days. I sold my CB years ago waiting for HDMI upgrade and now keep waiting for room correction which I won't do without. I'll check back this fall!

Thanks for the update!

This is unfortunate, because a CBIII HD / Dirac with new DAC card, digi out card and an outboard DAC would be the most elegant, integrated 2 channel / multi channel with DRC solution available. To get best in class DRC, audiophile 2 channel, and very good all digital (i.e. no A/D conversions) multi channel, I ended up with an insanely complex collection of boxes and wiring instead. Some of the leading edge DACs (EMM Labs, MSB) have RS232 and can be easily integrated with a CBIII / Digit out using iRule, so if you really want to push the 2 channel envelope you can even go beyond a GenVIII.
Edited by edorr - 1/23/13 at 7:38am
post #4718 of 6787
Gentlemen:

There is no news regarding the Dirac upgrade. We have not published any.

I can tell you that the second spin of PR-3 post-processing card is complete. The PR3 replaces three cards in the current Casablanca, allows post processing at rates up to 384k, includes two FPGA's for local programming, accepts the current DAE77 with space for add-on DA-830's (or other DSP's) in case more post processing is required in the future. Further, the PR3 adds a full-time jitter cleaner and leaves one empty input slot for additional connectivity. We are now heavily invested in firmware and software programming to integrate the PR-3 (and Dirac Live) into the Casablanca.

We cannot currently offer any estimate for the release date but will post here and elsewhere on the web when we have that date.

Jeff
post #4719 of 6787
Nice, hopefully with all this processing power we will get the full monty version of Dirac Live
post #4720 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

This is unfortunate, because a CBIII HD / Dirac with new DAC card, digi out card and an outboard DAC would be the most elegant, integrated 2 channel / multi channel with DRC solution available. To get best in class DRC, audiophile 2 channel, and very good all digital (i.e. no A/D conversions) multi channel, I ended up with an insanely complex collection of boxes and wiring instead. Some of the leading edge DACs (EMM Labs, MSB) have RS232 and can be easily integrated with a CBIII / Digit out using iRule, so if you really want to push the 2 channel envelope you can even go beyond a GenVIII.

I don't doubt that this product has the ability to be an outstanding solution – maybe the best available. However, they were very late in finally delivering an HDMI solution and are no better with room correction. I will wait until the product is final, into the hands of a number of users (and hopefully reviewers) and then make my decision.

Excluding their amps, DACs (and maybe DVD/Bluray players) they lack demonstrated credibility in their ability to deliver a fully fleshed out SSP (including room correction). And while I would certainly hope they are working diligently on getting the product complete, tested, manufactured, delivered and supported, I will go by an adage an old boss once told me: "NEVER confuse activity with accomplishment".

I do have a couple of questions that depending on the answers might allow me to purchase a CBIII prior to the availability of room correction (once I am positive they would actually deliver room correction). There are stand-alone room correction products that do an OUTSTANDING job (including with digital input and output) and are quite cost effective. I would use such for the bass only.

(1) Does the digital out capability for both music and movies (my interest for the short term is in the bass) provide full bandwidth digital or is it down-sampled? Or will it output full bandwidth but only into a Theta DAC?

(2) Does the Theta CB CURRENTLY determine distances automatically or is the user required to input the distances. The issue is that with, for example, the DSP in my subs, the time delay of the DSP processing is not taken into account if I have to provide the distance manually. What about trim levels?

(3) In the past, I have read about continued reliability issues with the CBIII. I don’t have a lot of interest in having to reboot on any kind of regular interval. My current SSP has NEVER required such and I would find that kind of reliability expected for an SSP as this price point.

I will check back as I am interested.
post #4721 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post


(1) Does the digital out capability for both music and movies (my interest for the short term is in the bass) provide full bandwidth digital or is it down-sampled? Or will it output full bandwidth but only into a Theta DAC?

All HDMI sources are downsampled to 48/16 on the digi out card, this includes signal to the Theta DAC. Non HDMI sources are output digitally at full bandwidth (probably up to 96/24). Since the Theta DSP runs at 48/24, it is not entirely clear what happens to a 2 channel 96/24 non HDMI source that runs through the DSP for delay/bass management.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

(2) Does the Theta CB CURRENTLY determine distances automatically or is the user required to input the distances. The issue is that with, for example, the DSP in my subs, the time delay of the DSP processing is not taken into account if I have to provide the distance manually. What about trim levels?

All manual
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

(3) In the past, I have read about continued reliability issues with the CBIII. I don’t have a lot of interest in having to reboot on any kind of regular interval. My current SSP has NEVER required such and I would find that kind of reliability expected for an SSP as this price point.

Can't comment. My CBIII was always pretty reliable, whith the occasional jitter induced drop out for satellite TV.
post #4722 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by edorr View Post

All HDMI sources are downsampled to 48/16 on the digi out card, this includes signal to the Theta DAC. Non HDMI sources are output digitally at full bandwidth (probably up to 96/24). Since the Theta DSP runs at 48/24, it is not entirely clear what happens to a 2 channel 96/24 non HDMI source that runs through the DSP for delay/bass management.

I would certainly want to know the answer to that. I don't have a huge library of hi rez music (24/96, 24/192) but I sure would hope that it is not going to be downsampled in the SSP
Quote:
All manual

That is a major bummer. There is no good way to determine the REAL delays other than electronically.
Quote:
Can't comment. My CBIII was always pretty reliable, whith the occasional jitter induced drop out for satellite TV.

Is that a past tense "was"? Do you still own or not own a CBIII?

It appears waiting is the prudent choice for me at the moment. And depending on if or how they address the internal processing issue and the determination of "real" distances, this may still not be an option for me.

It is really too bad that the Classe has such a limited room correction choice or I would really take a hard look at it. Most of the other true high end SSP options are out of my budget.
post #4723 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Is that a past tense "was"? Do you still own or not own a CBIII?

I sold my CBIII. Like you, wanted to play around with DRC and not willing to wait for Theta's to ship Dirac, so went another direction (Trinnov ST2-Pro).
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

It appears waiting is the prudent choice for me at the moment. And depending on if or how they address the internal processing issue and the determination of "real" distances, this may still not be an option for me.

Once Dirac ships, delays will be measurement based, and from what Stereojeff is telling, there will be processing power to spare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

It is really too bad that the Classe has such a limited room correction choice or I would really take a hard look at it. Most of the other true high end SSP options are out of my budget.

A Trinnov MC8 with modded Oppo digital in will put most high end processors to shame, but you are still looking at around $15K. For about half that, you can run 4 channels from a modded oppo digitally into a Trinnov ST2-Pro, run the remaining 2 channels through an outboard DAC and the "delay channel" on the trinnov. Only issues is synching up 6 channels of volume control which needs to be done through iRule macros.
post #4724 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Gentlemen:

There is no news regarding the Dirac upgrade. We have not published any.

I can tell you that the second spin of PR-3 post-processing card is complete. The PR3 replaces three cards in the current Casablanca, allows post processing at rates up to 384k, includes two FPGA's for local programming, accepts the current DAE77 with space for add-on DA-830's (or other DSP's) in case more post processing is required in the future. Further, the PR3 adds a full-time jitter cleaner and leaves one empty input slot for additional connectivity. We are now heavily invested in firmware and software programming to integrate the PR-3 (and Dirac Live) into the Casablanca.

We cannot currently offer any estimate for the release date but will post here and elsewhere on the web when we have that date.

Jeff

Sounds great Jeff. Do you expect your implementation of Dirac Live to remain constrained to 96kHz with the new PR3?

Also, do you have jitter measurements for the new Compli Blu 3D plus current CB III HD combo over HDMI versus coaxial S/PDIF?
post #4725 of 6787
Steve:

I take strong objection to your use of the word "constrained". Dirac Live is a system for acoustic correction. Running at 96 kHz, as it will in the 'Blanca, allows acoustic correction to 48 kHz. This is already well beyond the listening bandwidth of any AVS listeners (or any other humans).

No jitter measurements, yet.

audioguy: While the current Casablanca allows/requires the user to input delay data, our Dirac module measures the "acoustic" distance of any playback transducers--including any delay added by in-line filters.

Jeff
post #4726 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Steve:

I take strong objection to your use of the word "constrained". Dirac Live is a system for acoustic correction. Running at 96 kHz, as it will in the 'Blanca, allows acoustic correction to 48 kHz. This is already well beyond the listening bandwidth of any AVS listeners (or any other humans).

Jeff

May be. But if someone wanted to apply DRC and/or bass management on a native two channel 192/24 file, the CBIII HD / Dirac would still need to downsample to 96/24 and loose resolution. I believe the datasat can run natively at 192/24, and Trinnov MC will soon be able to through software upgrade. This is a non-issue for MCH sources, but for 2 channel 96/24 is a real contraint.
post #4727 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Steve:

I take strong objection to your use of the word "constrained". Dirac Live is a system for acoustic correction. Running at 96 kHz, as it will in the 'Blanca, allows acoustic correction to 48 kHz. This is already well beyond the listening bandwidth of any AVS listeners (or any other humans).

So I take it you're not a proponent of higher bit rate content? John Baloff recently told me he longs for the day 768kHz becomes the standard for PCM. I thought Theta was on its way to moving to new DACs that would at least handle 192kHz content (without down-resolving) and so by "constrained" I meant a Dirac Live enabled CB would be forced to down-res such content that the new DACs were designed to be handle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

No jitter measurements, yet.

Ok. Keen to see these as there is a perennial debate about HDMI jitter and I am wondering how well you think you've cracked that nut (just as the S/PDIF jitter nut was cracked awhile back)
post #4728 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Gentlemen:

There is no news regarding the Dirac upgrade. We have not published any.

I can tell you that the second spin of PR-3 post-processing card is complete. The PR3 replaces three cards in the current Casablanca, allows post processing at rates up to 384k, includes two FPGA's for local programming, accepts the current DAE77 with space for add-on DA-830's (or other DSP's) in case more post processing is required in the future. Further, the PR3 adds a full-time jitter cleaner and leaves one empty input slot for additional connectivity. We are now heavily invested in firmware and software programming to integrate the PR-3 (and Dirac Live) into the Casablanca.

We cannot currently offer any estimate for the release date but will post here and elsewhere on the web when we have that date.

Jeff
That's really great news especially the "full-time jitter cleaner." This much investment in hardware bodes well for a long future for the Casablanca platform.
post #4729 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by misterSAX View Post

nice, but where are the differences with CB3 ?
I don't have any info other than what I saw posted in the internet. I'm sure it will be a great performer and allow you to get great sound at a much lower price. The processor appears to be upgradeable. If you have the budget for the Casablanca, it still might be the way to go. While the new processor is upgradeable, the price point will limit the scope of the upgrades. The last extensive upgrade on the Casablanca was 5k. You can safely assume that the new processor would never recieve such an extensive and costly upgrade. Still, it could be a very long time before you would need any upgrades. Theta as well as Meridian has offered very good performance in the models below their flagship processors. If Theta can offer performance as good as the Classe SSP800 along with Dirac live, that will be a tremendous value.However with a 3rd quarter planned release, it could be next year before it's actually shipping.
post #4730 of 6787
Hi guys i am considering upgraing my CBIII to hdmi finally and am wondering if this PR3 card is to be included prior to full release of Diras in upgrades??? I really want to understand if i should now wait to upgrade?

Also the new digital board does it require volume control for external dac's ie like the proprietry volume data connection used in the past?

Thanks rick
post #4731 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Gentlemen:

There is no news regarding the Dirac upgrade. We have not published any.

I can tell you that the second spin of PR-3 post-processing card is complete. The PR3 replaces three cards in the current Casablanca, allows post processing at rates up to 384k, includes two FPGA's for local programming, accepts the current DAE77 with space for add-on DA-830's (or other DSP's) in case more post processing is required in the future. Further, the PR3 adds a full-time jitter cleaner and leaves one empty input slot for additional connectivity. We are now heavily invested in firmware and software programming to integrate the PR-3 (and Dirac Live) into the Casablanca.

We cannot currently offer any estimate for the release date but will post here and elsewhere on the web when we have that date.

Jeff

Jeff, that's great news!!

RickD - Jeff states that the new PR-3 post-processing card upgrade work is done but the release date is not set yet. Even my Theta Dealer Craig/VGI, or other Theta dealers like Norm/Tyree, can't get this upgrade for their customers yet. So if you do the CB3 HD upgrade it will be with the old processing card.
Still a fantastic SSP, I love mine, but you might wanna be patient and wait for the new processing card!
post #4732 of 6787
Thanks Steve if its something that is within the next few months happy to wait but if its a year away perhaps not i realise u don't know but given you vast experience what does your gut tell u feww months or more than 6-12?
post #4733 of 6787
At least 6 months. Reading between lines from conversations with theta folks
post #4734 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by adanny View Post

At least 6 months. Reading between lines from conversations with theta folks

I agree!@@
post #4735 of 6787
Anyone heard any progress re getting rid of the click that comes through the left channel as source material begins and ends?
post #4736 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

"Not familiar with the term "2.0 runtime." Could you expand?"

Okay, here's the scoop. The Theta people are using a different version of Dirac Live than what is in the Datasat products. Dirac Research calls what is in the Theta Casa their "version 2.0 or V2 runtime". The V2 runtime uses a different configuration GUI than what Datasat uses. The V2 GUI is infact this tool ...

http://www.dirac.se/en/consumer-products/dirac-rcs.aspx

OEMs such as Theta add custom software to bridge between the Dirac Live application and their hardware. Datasat has been looking at the possibilities of migrating to V2 but as of yet have not made a commitment.

Is Dirac Live V2 better than V1?? Nope, my testing says they produce the same results. The only advantage to V2 is one that is important to the OEM, in that it takes fewer MIPS to process a V2 filter.

Automagically computing delays is in both Dirac Live V1 and V2. Unfortunately it was never implemented in the Datasat AP20/ RS20i. Setting levels automatically is tricky because there are so many things outside of Dirac Live that can affect them. As result I expect you will always need to check them.
_______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

The above is from the Datasat thread here at the 20K+ forum!
post #4737 of 6787
Had the RS20i. Nice, lots of tweaking capability. I replaced it with the new Marantz SSP, and honestly cannot tell a difference (yeah, I must be getting old *42*). Prior to either of those pieces, I was going to pull the trigger on a Theta from Craig, but none of this current info was available.

Craig always has a unit ready to go, but does anybody have a clue the cost of upgrading a current CB3HD to the up-and-coming version with the New DSP board and kHz capabilities, and if these new boards will work with the current CB3HD DACs?

The thing that kills me is my room is a completely dedicated room, with Triad speakers and related equipment, and I'm not convinced the CB3HD, even with Dirac 2.0 and other upcoming updates, will sound "world's better" than the RS20i. Yeah, it was nice, but just didn't do it for me.... especially since the marantz in the room now gives me 95% of what the DataSat provided.... (not quite the noise floor, but who cares!!)

Stieger
post #4738 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

The above is from the Datasat thread here at the 20K+ forum!

Cost currently Euro487.

I've been thinking of trialling this in 2 channels in the 2 channel digital audio player I am building. It has enough processing power (much more than the Bryston) to run it.

At the moment I am learning with REW and my iSEMcon EMM-13D082/H-P48/RM mic http://www.acoustics.isemcon.com/shop.htm
post #4739 of 6787
[quote name="Rickd" url="/t/1313052/the-official-theta-thread/4710#post_22887112"

Also the new digital board does it require volume control for external dac's ie like the proprietry volume data connection used in the past?

Thanks rick[/quote] Yes, It operates in that regard in the same manner.
post #4740 of 6787
Quote:
Originally Posted by stieger View Post

Had the RS20i. Nice, lots of tweaking capability. I replaced it with the new Marantz SSP, and honestly cannot tell a difference (yeah, I must be getting old *42*). Prior to either of those pieces, I was going to pull the trigger on a Theta from Craig, but none of this current info was available.

Craig always has a unit ready to go, but does anybody have a clue the cost of upgrading a current CB3HD to the up-and-coming version with the New DSP board and kHz capabilities, and if these new boards will work with the current CB3HD DACs?

The thing that kills me is my room is a completely dedicated room, with Triad speakers and related equipment, and I'm not convinced the CB3HD, even with Dirac 2.0 and other upcoming updates, will sound "world's better" than the RS20i. Yeah, it was nice, but just didn't do it for me.... especially since the marantz in the room now gives me 95% of what the DataSat provided.... (not quite the noise floor, but who cares!!)

Stieger
Are you using it for movies only? There is not a tremendous amount of difference between processors with most movie sound tracks. I believe that is an area where the bland and I have always agreed. There are much more apparent differences with music especially as you use higher resolution source material.
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