The official "Theta" thread - Page 163

That's the real improvement. If it's running at 24/192, I can work around anything else like Dirac being limited to 24/96. What would be really wonderful wpuld be some new dacs that can run at 24/192 with the new improvements.

It's 100% the same. The Creston programming will not need to be changed.

IP controls is the future. The feedback and features are the same with RS232. With RS232 however, you will most likely have to run cables. I would like to ultimately move away from having to run cables just for control and feedback.

Now this discussion is headed the correct direction .
A media render (=media player) made by Theta.

And isn’t that actually what the Compli Blu 3D is, except it’s missing the Direct IP Control ? Or a way of displaying what is playing on an iDevice ?

As for video over network I think it plays almost everything. So the discussion should be about audio as Stevekale suggest.

But I can’t see that all Stevekale’s suggestions should add any sonic upgrade. I would be happy to be explained what or why these listed items do or add to the Compli ?
An AES-EBU may be nice. Apart from that, both the HMDI and S/PDIF output either LPCM or Bitstream. Do we need more ? And why ?

I understand Stevekale’s suggestion is more like a media server / HTPC, and such a device can easily be built almost according to the suggested spec.
I can’t see the reason for Theta to compete with the computer equipment already available. Or do I miss a point here ?

I myself has built a nice HTPC with A-tech and added hiFace EVO with separate PS from mt2ec and the Evo Clock. Foobar used as software, and MonkyMote HD used as iPad control. Works great.

It is also important to distinguish if you prefer to have the media server next to your audio system, which I would try to avoid, or remotely by RJ45 interface. Or wireless as the Compli also offer.

Remotely you would only need the network output and the correct SW. The SW either in your NAS/server or integrated your media render.
For Compli in order to get all the nice media player options, like playlist, composer, genre, etc. the SW has to be in the server. And it works. You have it all at the Compli. (Foobar used).

If Linn, Bryston or any other are able to have a nice media player SW built in their products and controlled by an iDevice, I do not know.
But if they have, will it sound better than having the media player SW installed on your server ?
Is it not the HW in first place used in the render that matters when it comes to sonic performance ?

Can the Compli Blu 3D sonic’s performance be done better apart from my request to be controlled over an iDevice.
Can something be done that will make the HMDI or SPDIF sound better, or is it the inputs that is not good enough ?
Is the Bryston a better player as an example. If I understand Steve Bruzonsky correctly, he believe the Bryston may sound a bit better.
So maybe there are better media renders out there ?

Thanks Steve B. for sharing your sonic experience with us.
But did you actually compare apple to apple ? Would you be kind to tell if you used HMDI or SPDIF on the Compli, and what setting did you use LPCM or bitstream ? Did you connect both direct via SPDIF to Gen 8 and also both via SPDIF to the CB3HD ?
Did you use the same type of SPDIF cable ?
I myself has no idea if this things matters, it just to be sure.
Actually I thought or expected almost any high end digital renderer should be equal sonically, and the difference would be in the chain behind.

What I do not know, and have not tested myself yet, and would like to understand better is how about the sonic differ between a DNLA / UPnP vs an USB input. Should there in theory be any ?
If I understand Steve Bruzonsky tests, he may be hearing a difference in the USB input from Bryton vs the Copli. Not sure if that also goes for network.

There are also discussion out there that claim they can hear difference between what manufacturer of disk is used, or if it’s an SSD.
Also people hear difference between FLAC and WAW. I think we should stick to FLAC, since that what normally can be purchased.

And where should the file conversion be done ? In the server by the media player SW, or by the media render itself ?

I can as an example have my Compli Blu 3D state what type of file it get from the Foobar.
All my files are FLAC, but I can have them converted into PCM or WAW by foobar, and then the output of the Compli says if it’s a PCM, FLAC, or a WAW file it’s playing. Does it really matter. Probably not.

In the future my guess is that we will be able to stream hi-res direct from internet, and that can be either via the shops like HDTracs, Spotify, Winamp, or via your own Cloud, so I personally would like media via RJ45 interface, as long as there is no sonic degradation compared to USB.

Then probably to have the media player SW in the renderer itself is the preferred option. If that ever will happen to the Compli Blu 3D via an SW upgrade, or a possible new player from Theta, is up to Theta to tell us. I do not know the limitation of what can be done by SW upgrade of the Compli.
Or if a combination of SW and HW upgrade is a preferred option from Theta.

My sonic experiences so far is that I can't hear any difference between my HTPC and the Compli.
I plaid the same file via MonkyMote and my m2tec equipment and Theta Compli Blu 3D into my CBIII HD simultaneously using the A-D button to change between Compli HDMI, Compli SPDIF, and my HTPC.

I have not yet tried USB, or the CD. I will do a test later using my Wadia 581 GNS as transport via AES-EBU, and the Theta transport via S/PDIF playing the same CD copied twice and also the same CD ripped via the HDMI output from Compli.
My prediction is that I will still not hear any difference.
Edited by ANRE - 2/23/13 at 5:32pm

This is totally wrong. In the setup of the Compli you have the option to choose output between DSD and PCM.
Did U test with DSD ?

Update:
I may been too quick here. The CB III HD display 88.2 with either of them choosen. The SACD's tested is by the Compli said to be PCM.
Edited by ANRE - 2/23/13 at 6:48pm

I think HDMI is likely to become increasingly important for audio.
Edited by ehlarson - 2/23/13 at 6:15pm

U are so right. My CB III HD already need more HDMI inputs
Edited by ANRE - 2/23/13 at 6:49pm

Craig

What are actually the changes in this firmware update ?
We now get the correct status when using HMDI as output, and this applies to HDMI only, the CBIII HD display corect stream. And according to Steve B, he can play 172. Is that all ?

Why did Theta chose not display the same information via S/PDIF ?

Andreas

Neither my theta CB3 HD or Gen VIII DACs can decode DSD, so why would I set the Compli Blu 3D to DSD?

No doubt with a DSD DAC the Compli Blu 3D would sound awesome on SACD!

The HDMI output sounds excellent on blu ray and on redbook CD, as I already new from previously having the Compli Blu prior to getting the Compli Blu 3D in December.
But I tested the digital coaxial output on redbook, and the Bryston was better, but if you didn't AB them you'd still be very happy with the Compli Blu if you don't mind a disc spinner
and not being able to pay hi rez PCM up to 192-24, except for DVD-A and SACD converted to PCM over hdmi.

The Bryston has no moving parts and no spinning disc - doesn't that make sense that objectively, there is less vibration and even electrical noise that could theoretically "pollute" the audio signal - or is the proper term "jitter"?

Makes sense to me that the potentially best sounding media player will not have moving parts or plays CDs, discs, etc.

Theta is not going to put money and engineering into redesigning the USB section of the Compli Blu 3D from what Oppo did - Theta added a nicer case and much better power supply and I can hear the results on the audio clearly. If Theta did what you suggest the price would go up so much that who would buy it? AV companies must market products that are profitable, not necessarily enviable.

And I luv using my Ipad as the controller for the Bryston, where I can instantly see all the albums, artists, sort by genre, song, etc
If you have liner notes you can read them to. And there's an info link to the web for info on the artist. COOL! . Its so clean and easy! the Oppo - Compli Blu 3D interface is nothing like that at all, you fo through your folder list and see the contents of each folder line by line, no info beyond that.

Beyond that, I am done. Gotta lotta other stuff to do - like setting up the new PC for my new home office. HA!

Hello ,

In my CB3Hd , 1 Extrem , 2 premium, it is written this :

Bootloader version : 203
Application version : 414

Which firmware 420 or 430 do i have to get ?

Have a nice sunday !

I've just not seen any objective measurements that suggest jitter has been conquered yet when the connectivity is HDMI. Coaxial SPDIF once posed a problem (perhaps it still does) that was reasonably conquered. I do expect some form of USB (with full galvanic isolation if that's possible) will become the mode of choice for at least awhile. Perhaps proprietary iS2.

Theta are rather constrained to what Oppo has produced. Like I said, it was a gap filler product with low, if any, development cost. I think they'll just wait for Oppo to improve their interface/ iDevice control.
Not suggestions for the Compli. That's just piggy-backing on Oppo's development programme. Rather an audio server.

I think if they want to be in the source space Theta will have to produce an audio server. Not to be confused with an HTPC. With video they can leverage Oppo. They do need to think about an audio server. Bryston has done well here.

For me, in the rack underneath my CB III HD and managed wirelessly with my iPad. JRiver still produce the best client but to the best of my knowledge it doesn't run on Linux. Bryston have saved costs by using Linux and an open-source client.

I am a firm believer in the "no moving parts" mantra. I have no reason to spin CDs in an Oppo/Compli anymore. I will never buy another DVD (all mine are ripped to a drive plugged into my Oppo). I do still buy BDs.

Check out the Bryston BDP-1 and 2. But also check out the Auraliti and the Aurender S10.


Probably quite a lot. The DSD -> LPCM conversion is constrained for starters.


I very much doubt it.

The server should handle a broad range of file types including ALAC. I use a Mac and rip a disc using XLD to ALAC. A version is automatically added to my iTunes library and another in my music folder to be copied to an SSD drive for the audio server. This way I automatically have a copy on all my iDevices for portability.


I think you're confusing file containers/encoding with the final bit stream, LPCM.

Personally I'm not a fan of DNLA or streaming for audio. I can fit all of my audio collection and more on an SSD inside the server with a 0.5m coaxial cable to the CB III HD.

Taz,
I had a similar situation. 2 extemes but 414. I talked to John @ Theta and he said to go with 430. Works fine.

Jeff

Use 430, cause you have a Xtreme.
I had the same issue with my two Xtreme's and the 414 SW.

Here is the answer from I got from Theta:

"There are many CB III HD's with version 414 that can use v430 upgrade. If your Casablanca has Xtreme, Superior II or Premium DAC's it is eligible for v430 whethter it has v414 or v416 installed. Even if you updated to v420 you would still add 192 kHz playback and would do no harm. In a nutshell, you cannot go wrong with either version."

Ok for the 430 version !

Big thanks !

Otherwise ,I'm still very happy with my CB3 hd !

I didn't know that CB3 HD, couldn't decode DSD. Well, then the option on the Compli to output DSD is not correct I suppose, cause I get sound. And expect so will you

The manual for the Compli Blu 3D stats the following on page 61, and the first sentence confirm the Compli outputs DSD over HDMI.

"DSD - SACD DSD data is output over HDMI without any conversion. For the analog audio
outputs, DSD data is converted into analog signal directry by the internal DAC. If you use a
receiver that supports HDMI v1.2a with DSD over HDMI, or you prefer the sound quality of
straight DSD to analog, please select this option"

Edited by ANRE - 2/24/13 at 1:48pm

I tried to upgrade mine to 430 too, but now its locked up. Will power on but thats it. Tried recycling power switch a few times, unplugged etc. I have an extreme and premium dacs.

However noticed in the log file, noticed some errors. Fired off a letter to John @ Theta with the log file.

02/23/2013 23:03:11 Log File Created
02/23/2013 23:03:11 TDD VERSION: [2.3]
02/23/2013 23:03:27 FUNCTION: [TDDConnect]
02/23/2013 23:03:27 STATUS: [Connecting...]
02/23/2013 23:03:27 CONNECT STATUS: []
02/23/2013 23:03:27 UART: [COM4: 115200]
02/23/2013 23:03:28 FUNCTION: [IdentifyHW]
02/23/2013 23:03:30 FUNCTION: [QueryIDENTity]
02/23/2013 23:03:30 HWINFO: [boot: 0x0203 app: 0x00000000 flash 0xFFFC00]
02/23/2013 23:03:30 STATUS: [Connected to Bootloader\n]
02/23/2013 23:03:30 CONNECT STATUS: [Casablanca III HDMI\n]
02/23/2013 23:03:33 FUNCTION: [OnBootload]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 STATUS: [Recovering Front Panel...\n]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 FUNCTION: [RecoverFP]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 FUNCTION: [CBDownloadFP]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 FUNCTION: [GotoBOOTMode]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 STATUS: [Downloading Software...\nfile: fp.hex]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 FUNCTION: [QueryIDENTity]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 HWINFO: [boot: 0x0203 app: 0x00000000 flash 0xFFFC00]
02/23/2013 23:03:39 FUNCTION: [CBSetInvalid]
02/23/2013 23:03:40 FUNCTION: [DownloadPIC24Hex]
02/23/2013 23:04:11 FUNCTION: [CBSetInvalid]
02/23/2013 23:04:11 STATUS: [Repaired; Must Re-Connect at correct \nBaud Rate and Upgrade for full recovery.]
02/23/2013 23:04:11 STATUS: [Recovering Front Panel...\n]
02/23/2013 23:04:16 FUNCTION: [OnCancel]
02/23/2013 23:04:16 Log File Closed

That's funny. The Compli Blu HD doesn't have an internal DAC. It has no analogue section. Someone didn't edit the Oppo manual very well?

Well, the final bit stream should not be set to LPCM, if that is what you are saying. It should be Bitstream, if not the manual are wrong again

• LPCM - Digital audio output via HDMI will be multi-channel linear PCM format. When this
option is selected, compressed audio bit streams will be decoded by the player. This setting is
recommended when connecting the HDMI output directly to a TV or to a receiver without
advanced audio decoding capabilities.

• Bitstream - Digital audio output via HDMI will be in bitstream format. This option is
recommended when connecting the HDMI output to an AN receiver or processor that supports
advanced audio decoding, such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio,

I may confuse containers/encoding with what the render put out, but if I do not have the right settings like the picture from foobar settings illustrates below, I could end up with MP3 instead of FLAC sent to the render (Compli Blu 3D)


Edited by ANRE - 2/25/13 at 1:53am

More to add on this- I have 4.14 installed, bootloader 203. Xtreme card, Premium card, 12-ch single ended digi card. John B @ Theta told me the 4.30 software is optimized for the higher bitrates of the Xtreme / Premium cards and the balanced 12ch digi cards.

Version 4.20 is optimized for the lower bitrate DAC cards and single ended 12ch digi card. Since I am not using the single ended 12ch digi card, it was suggested I use the 4.30 software. If I were using the 12ch single ended digi card, John said I might need to run v4.20 - Hope this helps.

And more to add- Anyone who has an Xtreme and/or Premium DAC, AND a single ended 12ch digi card, read this to avoid some headache on upgrade to 4.30 or 4.20

You MUST use the "Front Panel Recovery" upgrade path exactly as outlined on Theta's website. If you simply use the TDD's "upgrade" option, it will load the firmware but you will NOT get any sound from any DSP modes. This has to do with the sequence of events during the software update, and the fact that the older 12ch single ended digi card is designed for v4.14/v4.20 and Xtreme / Premium cards are designed for v4.16/v4.30. If you use the "Front Panel Recovery" instructions, you will be fine / no issues installing 4.30 with the older single ended 12ch digi card present- but you *may* not be able to use the 12ch single ended digi card (have not tested it). I confirmed this scenario with John B, who is always great to deal with.

If you already messed up, no big deal. Run TDD, choose "upgrade" and re-install the v4.14 or v4.16 software. After complete, confirm you have all audio back with DSP modes (DD, Matrix, etc). Now re-run the 4.30 or 4.20 update using the Front Panel Recovery instructions (located on the same page @ Theta where you downloaded the 4.20 or 4.30 software).


I am REALLY liking the 4.30 update. A dramatic improvement in HDMI audio quality. I put on one of my fav reference CD's (Buddy Guy - 'Bring 'em In', Track 1) on the Oppo 95, set to Matrix mode (L,R plus subs), switched between analog input and HDMI input from the Oppo using A/D. Before, the HDMI output sounded comparable to analog output from the Oppo (which was fine by me). Now, the HDMI sounds SUPERIOR to the analog by a long shot (forgive the caps, I'm excited ). It is sort of like a bit of veiling was lifted and there is greater clarity, stage and detail. John said this may be expected since a lot of tweaks were done to improve digital audio fidelity particularly with the higher res DACs.

Anyway... WELL DONE THETA!
Edited by k_lewis - 2/27/13 at 7:04am

Wow, the HDMI sounds better than the Oppo 95 via analog?! That's a very big deal.
Edited by Bulldogger - 2/27/13 at 6:33am

Have you have any progress with this since letting Theta know?

Sean

The problem with DSD is that even after Theta is running newer DSP for post processing, you can't post process DSD. That means no room correction.
Edited by Bulldogger - 2/27/13 at 6:32am

Sounds interesting. And what are your thoughts now on coax S/PDIF digital versus HDMI?

Steve, how stable is the Bryston? I see a lot of reports about Window's based music servers crashing. Has Bryston conquered those types of issues?

Hi Steve- Don't know, have not tried SPDIF since the upgrade. I was always dissapointed with 2ch SPDIF performance from the Oppo95, and conversing with Oppo tech confirmed they don't care to do much with that section of the unit beyond basic implementation / improving it would drive the cost of the unit way up. After doing quite a bit of testing with the 95's SPDIF vs other more costly digital transports on a mega-reference-system (which I posted about some pages back), I still would not expect it to be as good as digital over HDMI or the analog output.

You know it may be because I was previously running v4.14 on the unit (suggested by Theta because I had a mix of newer Xtreme / Premium DACs with the older single-ended 12ch digi card). Given that v4.14 is not optimized for the higher res DACs, v4.30 may just have eliminated the non-optimization of running 4.14.

It is Linux based - not Windows.