The official "Theta" thread - Page 169

According to the HDMI licensing agreement, all legacy digital outs would be limited to 48/16. If the Bryston had HDMI, it would be thus limited.

I am certain that all legacy digtal outs on any processor are limited to 48/16 if inputted via HDMI. I believe this is also the case for the Datasat. You have to input via SPDIF to be abe to output a higher sampling rate. I'll have BB52 test when he gets around to installing the new Digi out card. BB52 can test because he has sample rate feedback for the Gen VIII via the stuff I did with Irule.

Well it has better specs than the DCS in every measure if that helps. You can never say with certainty what subjective preference will be. However, the Gen VIII is a very high-end dac and of course it competes with top of the line dacs. The middle of the line dacs are outclassed by Theta, IMO from the comparisons I have made. It's just been way to many years since I have had heard DCS to have any opinion on itt. One user here says the Gen VIII beats his 30k Burmester player if that also helps but again that a subjective personal preference. Too much depends on what you prefer in music as well as the type of sound you like. The Gen VIII brings a lot of dynamics and life to the presentation. It has more resolution and spatial cues than the middle of the road as you say, dacs. It also depends on the user whether this sort of presentation is of any value . But you are kind of asking a question like whether a Porsche is a sports car here. Of course the Gen VIII is a high-end dac. No it's not middle of the road. Can you beat it? I'm sure you can. You can beat almost anything if you have the budget and chose your components wisely. No one can answer the question but the end user in a direct comparison in their systems. However so far, every audio buddy that had my Gen VIII series 3 in their system has been EXTREMELY impressed. I also like dacs from EMM Labs and MSB tech. I'd buy that stuff too, I'd just mate those dacs with an outboard preamp to give me the additional qualities I like, extreme dynamics for example.

Is the dac going to be aided by an external analog preamp? IF not then I can easily recommend the Gen VIII. There are about 3 analog preamps, that I have heard that if brought into the equation, change things a lot. Analog out of a dac out of any other dac is not going to match the Gen VIII, IMO. All you have to do is look at the voltage specs to see that.

An example is Shelby Lynn. Her voice is like magic and I almost get a sense she's in the room with the Gen 8. That's also a superb recording which makes it a lot easier.
Edited by Bulldogger - 5/8/13 at 4:31pm

If the HDMI is "stripped" this may not necessarily be the case with all SSP

How does one strip the HDMI?

Ripping Blu Ray to disc involves stripping the HDCP encryption. Software is available to do this. Not sure what happens with encryption when you rip SACD to disc. I would imagine that a DSD file ripped with a PS3 and converted to PCM by JRiver has no encryption.

It is my understanding an unencrypted datastream coming in over HDMI will be played at native resolution, but I could be wrong about this.

Ok. There is hope at least for high rez audio. No one is doing it right now but I think that will change.
Edited by Bulldogger - 5/9/13 at 3:00pm

It will be the same for the Bryston (were it to offer this) as with any PC. In my Bryston/CAPs/audio server build, I selected a board which has HDMI out. I can route multichannel audio via the HDMI output and 2-channel via the Juli@ card (which eventually will be powered separately from the motherboard) to the Casablanca. What I need to figure out first, though, is how to manage the change in output path via JRemote. As to the HDMI limitation, we'll see....

Feels that way even just with my CB III and Xtreme DACs. Thanks for recommending the "Just a Little Lovin'" SACD!

Apparently, in JRiver 18 you can set up different zones with different output paths. You should ping Nyal Mellor on the Whatsbestforum, because he is (trying to??) doing the same thing (i.e. manage different signal path for MCH and 2 channel from the same server).
Edited by edorr - 5/10/13 at 5:47am

I'm here also

Well, I still haven't installed the new Digi-out card into the CBIII-HD BUT

For now, I'm outputting 2 channel HI-rez audio ripped from SACD via HDMI from my computers outboard drives and inputting the HDMI to my DVDO processor.
I then output the video processor with Digial Coax to my Gen VIII Series 3 and I'm getting real Hi-Rez audio, NO downsampling.

Verified of course with the help of Bulldogger's feedback for iRule.

If anyone is interested....

I have some additional iRule codes for the CB- III not included with what Bulldogger supplies to the world.

1. I can increase and decrease Center Channel level

2. Increase and decrease Subwoofer levels

3. Toggle through all of the EQ settings or with 2 buttons have EQ levels increase and decrease.


There is no Feedback available for these features, you'd still need to look at the front panel, but the Balance and A/D iRule buttons for the CB-III will take you there, just like the Theta supplied remote to know exactly where you've placed the settings.

I have my Casablanca set to return everything to zero by simply hitting the input your already set to, if you can't see your Casablanca and want to get the settings back to where originally set.

I shouldn't say "There is no Feedback available for these features", I'm sure Theta made just about anything you can do to a Casablanca available, what I mean say is that nobody has spent the time to write code iRule can use.
Edited by bigbrother52 - 5/10/13 at 12:52pm

Hey Nyal - PM sent

Thanks bulldogger, I cannot be testing every aspect of a new system design, since I gut most previous equipment configuration in every new moon of saturn iteration it pays to rely on your opinion and edors etc... for the audio q

Since I will be using d'agostino amps with Kharma grand exquisite extremes on all front channels height and widths I want to have the dacs up front, this combo should work.

Master Delay

The CB III manual mentions a "master delay" on page 2 of SETUP/INP (0-100ms). However, I can not find this setting. Ideas? I don't think my lip-sync is right, for example with DTS-HD audio on Blu Ray over HDMI.

Press - Setup Button - > Press Button 1 Input - > Press A/D Button To Get To Page 2 - > Button 5 MDLY

Volume Up Button From 0 To 100
Volume Down Button 100 To 0

You can get feedback on the first two items two different ways: enable status level 4 and the center channel level is byte #102; the sub1 level is byte #106, sub2 - sub4 are bytes #192 - 194. You could also query the input variables that correspond to these variables.

I'm not sure which Eq settings you are referring to but I'm pretty sure they are accessible.

Thanks for the info.

The EQ I refer to is the Shelf EQ located in

Balance - > Press A/D Button To Page 2 - > Button 3 = EQ

Positions are Off,1,2,3,4,Off

I'd have to look in the manual as I don't recall the Freqs. effected by the CB-III's EQ

These 3 adjustments are the first 3 buttons of the second page within the Balance settings and can be set to remain adjusted or be returned to flat after an input change or on/off cycle.

On the pages below for iRule, (Landscape & Portrait views) you have all of the Balance functions,
Left/Right, Front/Rear, Center Up/Down, Subs Up/Down, Volume Up/Down, Toggle Eq, Toggle A/D.
You can also see Feedback for Volume, Input Number with connected component identified, Type of Connection, Sample Rate, and Default Surround Mode

I think thats a lot of info and ability for a single iPhone page.
Much of the other pages could not have been done without Bulldoggers help as this was my first attempt at using RS-232 control.

iRule CB-III Balance - Landscape ScreenShot.PNG 1033k .PNG file iRule CBIII-HD Balance - Portrait ScreenShot.PNG 974k .PNG file
Edited by bigbrother52 - 5/11/13 at 6:07pm

OK, I call that the shelf eq. and I'm pretty sure that that's byte #158 from the level 4 status. I haven't used the level 3 or 4 status feedback but using the tokenized feedback should make it very easy.

Good Luck

Thanks Again

I edited my previous post so you can see the CB-III Balance Page Layout and Feedbacks already in use.

Edit: Re-edited photos in previous post with much clearer Screenshots
Edited by bigbrother52 - 5/11/13 at 6:12pm

Ooooooo, I see! You have reason to be concerned if the Gen 8 might be outclassed by the rest of the gear. No, not at all. If is going to be mostly for movies, then I don't think any other combinations can really compare for both sound and simplicity of integration. HOWEVER, If we were talking stereo with speakers and amps around that price point, then I'd go for MSB tech's best dac and either Audio Research Ref line or the VTL 7.5 tube preamps. I prefer Audio Research because those preamps do a lot of types of music well, including classic rock and not just classical music. If the owner does not want the hassles of separate preamp, there's really nothing else but the Casablanca and Gen VIII. If I ever do buy an outboard preamp again, I'd still keep the Gen 8 because I am addicted to the dynamics. Of all the gear that I have heard, no other dacs have those kind of dynamics. I buy a lot of my equipment used. After owning the Gen 8 for some time, I would actually buy it new. That's a big statement from a bargain hunter like myself.

Thanks. This manual, even the new one that came with the HDMI upgrade, is so out of date....

For this caliber system, ideally you want to use a battery of outboard DACs. A CBIII HD with digi out card and a bunch of GenVIII will probably be the best hardware you can throw at the problem. If you have another $60K in the kitty and getting the very best in 2 channel performance, you could consider getting the top of the line MSB DAC and a dedicated preamp with HT bypass as BD suggested. The big constraint with the CBIII + GenVIII MCH configuration is of course lack of room correction. In my view, it was a mistake for the ADA Reference not to have digital outputs - precisely for this type of application. An ADA reference with digi outs would have given you the complete package and allow you to use any lineup of DACs behind the processor you want. You can also look into the Datasat rs20i which does have digital outputs allowing you to use outboard dacs.

Another option is to use an HDMI to AES/EBU converter into a Trinnov MC 8/12/16 (depending on # channels you need) - this has digi out, so you can use outboard DACs. There appears to finally be a robust HDMI to AES converter device that will allow you to do this. http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/arvus_group_announces_release_of_worlds_first_7.1_hdmi_to_aes_ebu_audio_con

When I inquired about this box, they mentioned it will still downsample to 48/16 but you have the same issue with the CBIII HD - digi out based solution.

I forgot to mention one of the other connections involved here, and this is pretty important to anyone with a CBIII-HD & a Gen. VIII but still has an old Digi-out card installed, or perhaps does not have a Digi-Out card.
But, would still like to use the CBIII-HD's crossovers, so you can use your subwoofers while feeding the Gen. VIII Series 3 directly for Hi-Rez 2 channel music.

I know a few of you guys already have video processors to do what I suggested above, and it works even with the older ones as long as it has an HDMI input and output, even though it might not be able to pass the higher resolution DTS & Dolby formats over HDMI.

I originally started looking for a solution because I did not want to use a USB to Coax converter to feed the Gen.VIII Hi-Rez directly and even if I did, I still wouldn't have use of the Casablanca's subwoofers without having to down-rez all the music through the old Digi-out card, so the video processor became the obvious solution.

While some computers have a Digital Coax output, the Mac Mini does not and there are quite a few people who would like to use a Mac- Mini as a Music Server but it has it's connectivity limitations when it comes to Hi-Rez Music.
Aside from outputting via USB, the only alternatives are the mini jack converter to Tos-Link, which only allows output to 96K and HDMI, which actually does allow full Hi-Rez.
But without the new Digi-out card installed, HDMI to the Casablanca is a poor idea.

Anyway, longer story short....
Output HDMI from the Mac-Mini to the HDMI input of a video processor.
Output the Digital Coax Of the video processor directly to a Gen. VIII
At the same time, output the HDMI of the video processor directly to an HDMI input of the Casablanca.

You now have maximum Hi-rez music to your 2 front speakers via the Gen. VIII without going through the Digi-out card at all, and subwoofers output from the Casablanca with maximum resolution to the subwoofers that the Casablanca currently can afford without being down-rezed below the 96k output limit of an Extreme DAC.
With no Digi-out card, the Aux Digi card can be used for the communication link to the Gen. VIII for volume control.

If you happen to have a video processor hanging around, two channel Hi-Rez Music output from a Gen. VIII, with subwoofer connectivity via your Casablanca, is actually very simple without the two main channels going through a Digi-Out card at all.

Currently, I have the CB-IIIHD set to "Mono" but I suppose you can set it to anything you want for some sort of simulated surround or whatever your preferred mode of stereo is.

I hate to burst our bubbles BIG BRO,

but I did what you are doing two years ago, using HDMI from my then Theta Compli Blu into
my Lumagen Radiance XE, coaxial out of Radiance into Gen VIII, with HDMI out of Radiance into CB3 HD.

However, after awhile, my Gen VII volume pots needed to be replaced. I sort of wondered whether this could be caused by this funky setup that you are now doing???? I stopped doing this cause I didn't want anymore "pot" problems.For what you are doing, and what I did, one sets the Gen VIII menu to "None" so that the Gen VIII is independent of the CB3 HD, for the front left and right speakers. Meanwhile, the CB3 HD, receiving the full HDMI signal, outputs out the digi out card the digital audio signal to the Gen VIII - but the Gen VIII is set to not do anything with that signal its receiving, as the external channels/speakers in the Gen VIII menu are set to none.

Also, more than a year ago, I advised how I was playing 2 channel SACDs out HDMI into the Radiance, and then out coaxial from the Radiance to the Gen VIII or CB3 HD. What else is new?

With the "new" digi out card, using JRiver from a PC HDMI into my CB3 HD sounds fabulous, as I've reported. Although it sounds great for strictly two channel, I don't know that two channel is quite as good as going direct from Bryston BDP-1 to Gen VIII. But multi-channel sounds spectacular!!! I marveled yesterday as I listened to "Britten's Orchestra" SACD ISO rip from my PC. WOW!

That's OK Steve,
My bubble so far is completely intact, as are my volume pots in the Gen. VIII.

I am well aware of the fact that you tried something similar with your set-up, and I kept the problem you experienced with the "pots", which I know required the return of the Gen VIII to the factory for repair, in the forefront of my mind when I decided to move forward with the set-up anyway.

Of course the correct way to set this all up is the way you are doing it, with the use of the new Digi-Out card, which BTW I happen to already posses and have possessed it for many, many months.
But, lacking the ambition it takes for me to install the card, and the ease of which it was to use the video processor, well, the video processor route won out and has been working extremely well this way here for about as long as the new Digi-out card has been sitting here.
I do of course use the old Digi-out card but I'm not entirely pleased.
It is acceptable enough for blu-ray movies since the Gen. VIII is just that good, even at 48k, but for Hi-rez music, as you well know, it just couldn't cut it.
Then I tried the Tos Link out of the Mini to the Gen. Viii but was restricted to 96k and I was not pleased at all with that for several reasons.

Although the new Digi-out card is already sitting here, I was hoping to only take the CBIII-HD out of the system and open it up one time to install everything new at the same time.
But, as fate would have it and as we all know, the new processing board and everything that will go along with it are not quite ready yet/still.

But once I heard the Mini sound so good playing Hi-Rez music through the video processor, output to the Gen. VIII via coax, I knew it wouldn't be too hard to wait a little bit longer to open the CBIII-HD, if need be.
In the meantime, even though the sound of Aerial 9's along with the Gen. VIII alone was just absolutely fantastic, I felt like I should at least try to add the subwoofers back in. I did, and now it's simply stunning.

Now, if I recall, you did not have the Radiance connected to the Gen. VIII for long before something went very, very wrong.
I have been set-up this way for quite sometime with no apparent problems.

Of course the right way is still always the best way. Should I get up ambition enough to do it that way I most certainly will.
At the moment though, I am not totally convinced that whatever went wrong with the pots on your Gen.VIII was caused as a direct result of the set-up, unless set significantly different then mine.

You say "Meanwhile, the CB3 HD, receiving the full HDMI signal, outputs out the digi out card the digital audio signal to the Gen VIII - "

That's true but that is a completely different Gen. VIII input then what the computer is connected to for music with subs out of the CB-III There is nothing output the Digi-output card to the Gen VIII when the computer outputs to the Gen. Viii & CB-III as there is no cable connection between the two...no digi-out cable to Gen. VIII = no connection.
No connection hopefully means no potential pot problem.

If I wanted to play a movie from the computer for instance, iRule changes the CB-III's input from the computer as well as changes the input on the Gen.VIII to the same input as you'd use for DirecTV or Compli-Blu or anything else and music is downrezed with that input to the Gen. VIII
These two inputs on the Gen. VIII are separate and distinct from one another.

The only connection between them is the control cable which can be done from the Aux Dig-input card just as well.
And that's what you want to keep the volume of the two pieces of gear in sync when the subs come out of one piece of gear and the mains from another.