The official "Theta" thread - Page 19

This is exactly what Ash set up last night.

He was already connected via HDMI, now he's connected 2 channels analog out of the 95.

All he's got to do is listen to it both ways and if we're lucky, get his opinion!

How would you compare stereo analog SACD via the CB3 HD itself, vs the Six Shooter (if you've done that), vs the Gen VIII Series 2 as a preamp?

Kishore,
I followed Sam’s instructions and BigBrother’s advice to set up the Analog Direct on CB3HD playing SACD through Analog on Oppo 95.
When played, it sounds tremendous – way better than pulling Flac off my ReadyNAS through Oppo..
It is also much better than playing Flac off my Transporter…
But I am not sure that I listened to it correctly after reading LGJ’s e mail about turning off the side speakers..
And more confusing … stock 70’s advice to turn off HDMI on Oppo and turn on DSD to get true stereo from the Oppo…
And I am also confused that my Brothers in Arms SACD is encoded 5.1 so it is meant to be heard through HDMI multichannel???
And do I have a SACD which is stereo…
This is getting to be too much trouble for a guy who uses the theater 95% of the time for movies…
I think I will go back to playing flac from my Transporter using the slimserver application off my Crestron or even my Iphone.
But then again – If I ever need to play SACD using Analog Direct I am all set for it and I do not know what I listened to (PCM or DSD) but it sounded frackin good…
Ash

My CB3 is out for the upgrade. Only direct comparison I've done with the Oppo 95 is thru the Cb3 Extremes via analog and the Gen 8 v2 via analog outputs. In my system, the Gen 8 v2 came out on top.
Cb3 w/extremes wasn't as clean sounding as the Gen 8 maybe a bit warmer sound which isn't all that bad as the 95 is very airy & detailed at least in my system with the B&W 802'd. Imaging and sound stage was more pronounced in the Gen 8. Over all the CB3 with Extremes still did very well and I think most folks will be very happy with he analog section going through the CB3. I'm assuming it should be even better with the CB3 HD & Extremes.

I think what most would be interested in is a comparison between DSD direct in the Oppo into the analog direct input into the CBIII HD, compared with DSD converted PCM in the Oppo into HDMI on the CBIII HD. You would have to default the player to stereo. Not sure if a 5.1 mix is downmixed to stereo, or if there is a "native" alternative 2 channel track on the same disc. It does not appear you did this comparison.

Ash:

You only need to shut off side speakers when running Multi Channel Sacd through HDMI input of CB3HD....

For using the analog connection, that is proper but it is no more "true stereo" than any other way to get stereo from the Oppo.


Indeed.


Yes, this is a hybrid SACD which means it has a 5.1 SACD track, a stereo SACD track and a stereo CD (redbook) track. The Oppo will let you select which one you want.


Frankly, it should not matter.

Kal, using analog outs, I clearly prefer DSD direct over DSD converted to PCM, as does almost anyone else I have come across on this forum. To me, it is not the type of subtle difference that potentially goes away in a double blind test - it is immediately obvious and significant.

Even on theoretical grounds, it is extremely unlikely that a signal that is converted from its native format to something else (not sure if Oppo's 88/24 PCM can carry the same amount of information as DSD - this is probably simple math) should sound identical.

Kal,
Thanks for clarifying the 'Alpha bet Soup'...
I do want to mention that my Aerial 20T's have never sounded as good as when I played SACD using Oppo 95 on my CB3HD with Extreme Dacs...perfect sound.
Ash

Ash, you got me seriously confused here. Did you play the Oppo 95 2 channel SACD using analog outs through the analog bypass on the CBIII HD, or did you play digital out through HDMI over the Xtreme DACs, or did you do both and compare SQ?

DSD is not a true stereo it's just another option with in the Oppo player. I never really heard a difference between PCM and DSD anyway so it's not that big of a deal for me. My UX3pi Esoteric universal player converts DSD to PCM and I think it's head and shoulders over the Oppo 95 again just my opinion.

When passing SACD DSD over HDMI you just need to make sure any HDMI video device ie. your projector is not active (turned off) it's an annoyance......but pretty basic.

If your UX3pi Esoteric universal always converts to PCM, how would you know you don't hear a difference?


You can only pass DSD over HDMI if your SSP accepts DSD, which excludes all high end SSP's including the CBIII HD. It simply will not work.

[quote=edorr;20166550]If your UX3pi Esoteric universal always converts to PCM, how would you know you don't hear a difference?

I couldn't tell the difference between PCM & DSD with the Oppo however the Esoteric just sounded better to me over the Oppo.......how's that......

All true as long as you are willing to abjure all DSP in the processor but, to me, having precise channel/bass management and room EQ makes a much, much larger difference than the relatively smaller advantage of avoiding the PCM conversion.


This is true on theoretical grounds but may not be significant. OTOH, I have two other players that output 176.4/24 from SACD and find them marginally superior to the Oppo. Of course, this may be due to the sampling rate but I doubt it because the differential remains when I use the Meridian 621/861 and that will only accept 88.2!

That makes no sense at all. DSD is a signal format and stereo is signal content.


Why?

This is a different issue altogether. You say all else being equal the advantage of avoiding conversion DSD to PCM conversion is relative small or negligable (".... Frankly, it should not matter..."). I say in my experience it has always been substantial.

Whether the benefits of access to good room EQ and bass management in the SSP more than offsets the loss of resolution through DSD to PCM conversion I have no way of knowing because I have probably never been exposed to good room EQ.

Apparently this is a safety issue with HDMI bursts.......or something......it's been discussed in the Oppo 95 owners thread in the Bluray section. Maybe I'm not describing it correctly but all I know is the Oppo will not send DSD when my projector is active it reverts to PCM. My CB3 is out for upgrade so I'm using the Gen 8 v2 for audio via the XLR's from the Oppo 95 and using the Oppo 95 via HDMI for video sending it via HMDI to my projector. When I choose DSD for SACD it will not work if the HMDI is active it reverts to PCM. I hope I explained it correctly.

If you have the HDMI connected directly to the monitor, of course. However, if the HDMI goes to the processor (and it is not a simple HDMI pass-through), the monitor gets no audio and has no influence on the audio output of the player.

What is an HDMI burst?

When the CB3 got the HDMI upgrade, I figured that CB3HD owners would no longer have any reason to bypass Theta DACs when listening to high resolution sources. Apparently not.

Ash, do SACDs sound that much better with the Oppo 95 handling D/A conversion? Does removing Theta's unique bass management from the signal chain make for a noticeable improvement? Did the low frequencies sound better when you didn't use the subs that your calibrator had so carefully equalized?

This is from post #125 over at the Oppo 95 owners thread

"The limitation on DSD is a safety feature. Apparently Oppo is worried that a burst of DSD might be sent inappropriately in the course of subsequent HDMI handshakes."

Don't ask me what the heck that means..............but that's why it won't work when having an active HDMI video source and DSD audio. I'll try to find a deeper explaintion just to make sure this is clear for anyone using an Oppo 95 but will let it go after that. Thanks.

I think the analog connection was made from the Oppo just because he could.

I did the same thing.because I could.
I'd make even more connections but Theta cut my options down from 6 to 3 and I don't feel like setting up additional inputs to replicate more then 3 sources to the same inputs I already have now.

I also hooked my Esoteric back up, multiple digital connections, analog and all.
But actually, since I have my CB-IIIHD, I have turned my non-HDMI Esoteric SACD player on maybe twice for a couple of hours at a time to listen to the pure DSD over analog in an attempt to make some comparisons.

Personally, I don't think I actually need the Esoteric anymore, nor the analog cables.
The whole set-up really seems to be rather redundant.

I have no problem listening to SACD converted to PCM and played over HDMI but I do it kicking and screaming all the way.
My head keeps telling me, this just ain't right, but my ears don't really care.

Hardly anyone will continue down this analog path once we get used to the idea but as they say, old habits die hard.

And since it is so new to us, everybody has to make the same comparisons before we will all believe it's either just as good or good enough!

It's not a question of new ideas or old habits, just sound quality (or at least Ash's preference).

The bass management in his pre-pro is one of the most flexible I've ever seen. His multiple subwoofer placement is by Dennis Erskine's design and dialed in by a top calibrator. And I don't need to comment on the quality of Theta's DACs.

Why would bypassing all of that make 2-channel music sound so "frackin good"?

I might add that since the CBIII analog bypass is hardly the final word in preamps, nor is the Oppo 95 even close to the best 2 channel SACD playback, one can only imagine how "off the charts frackin brilliant" it would sound if he was using higher caliber 2 channel audio gear.

I played oppo using analog RCA through the analog bypass on the CB3. The oppos screen was showing pcm though and the CB3 was showing Direct Analog.
Ash

Sanjay,
AllI can say is that with settings on my above post the SACD sounded out of this world... with Analog Direct I think that only the Aerial 20T L/R are in play although the room plays a important role and my room is well built. One reason I can assume why it sounds 'frackin good' is because SACD has much higher resolution than for example FLAC played through Transporter.
I am no audiophile but more of a movie watcher layman so I may not be able to answer y'alls audiophile questions appropriately.
Ash

Thank you Ash- you are in the spotlight since you volunteered BB52 you are included too

I think what is being asked is does Oppo 95 2 Ch analog direct into CB3HD sound better than Oppo 95 digital in to CB3HD. Ash from your post above you are comparing 2 different sources if I am not mistaken (Oppo/SACD and FLAC thru transporter).

Cheers,
Kishore

Kishore,
I can categorically state that Oppo 95 2 Ch analog direct into CB3HD sounds better than Oppo 95 digital in/HDMI to CB3HD.
I was concerned of analog clipping and followed Big Brothers instructions and adjusted the Analog level.
Cant put it in words but ... it sounds warm and well balanced... nothing like I have ever heard in my room.
Ash

FLAC of what source? Just wondering, do you have FLAC and SACD versions of the same recordings? If not, it's not possible to conclude the 'frackin' is in the format.

Another thing, if we're considering resolution based on what humans can hear, 88.2 kHz 24-bit and SACD both exceed that handily. Resolution is not the issue. Plenty of other possibilities can affect the sound, though.

Roger,
I played SACD on the oppo 95...
I played Flac from my ReadyNAS on the Transporter sounded better than FLAC played on the Oppo.
I played Flac from My ReadyNAS on the Oppo sounded worst.
Different material on the SACD but same material on FLAC.
The SACD sounded WAY better...
My statement on the resolution was just a guess.. you have a very good point.
Ash

My position is the same now as it was when I first got on this forum. Surround processors, all of them, are not that great for best sound. Nothing they can do, bass management or room correction is the determining factor in sound quality. All anyone has to do is go to any high-end dealer and compare his best surround processor with all the "sacred cow" features against his best analog preamp with no bass management or room correction and stand alone CD player. All of my life, every fracking time, the difference is easy to hear. The analog preamp hands the surround processor it's ass. If the analog bypass of the CBIII is impressing you, get a Six Shooter, and you may pee your pants.

Whenever I say these things, the "eggheads" break out a bunch of theory. The truth here is going to get quickly covered up. The only point that anyone want to make it that the Oppo dacs may be better than the Xtremes. Any other "truths," are going to be covered up. Let the BS began. Right now I wish you had another one of these surround processors with the EQ or room correction, so we could shed some light on this right now. I suspect then you would get attacked viciously once you discovered that that stuff was not the determining factor in sound quality.

As for Oppo, I have not heard the newest models but have heard the others. The Oppe 83SE while it represents a bargain for both sound quality and video quality, my Marantz SA7 is a level of magnitude better. It sounds like it is time for you to get something like a Gen VIII dac or at least try one.