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The official "Theta" thread - Page 221

post #6601 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

He's talking about group delay and getting the subs in phase with the main speakers. Yes, very important.

Basically, group delay causes the sub to sound "slow" (out of time, out of phase), so delay the MAIN speakers more than the sub so it can "catch up" so to speak.

This can be achieved by placement, patience, and perseverance. A fun day of audio hijinx!

Much more to it than that, but off to work I go...


Bigant:

Typically one must delay the subwoofer more than the main speakers because the filters in the subs crossovers add electrical delay.

Jeff
post #6602 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post


Now we have a dizzying variety of sound formats that can some down the pipe. Anyone else besides me like to hear Nat King Cole in 3-channel LPCM? I have some classical recording in 3-track also. Best of luck trying to get the Casablanca to play it natively without any further processing!


3 channel classical and Nat King Cole: Very nice, you are a man of great taste and I didn't realize some of us are doing this, is it Mercury? What's the source - digital or analog and is there actually some processor out there that does true 3 channels only?

The solution for the other formats for me is as you've already mentioned - simple enough and one button does it, so I do not see this as a big deal:
Input 1 is movie 7.1,
Input 2 is movie 5.1,
Input 3 is movie 2.0,
Input 4 is music SACD 5 channel,
Input 5 is music 2.0

Once I am used to this setup, it is truly a 1/2 second decision and push. In comparison, it takes a lot longer to set up the Bluray player to output the desirable audio format (than to select which input on Theta).
Edited by cannga - 2/19/14 at 8:33pm
post #6603 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by VGI View Post

ANT

CB2/3Cb3HD = Matrix = Two channel when you turn off the extra speakers. ( This should have been called 2 channel downmix but bottom line is matrix is pure 2 Channel clean L/R)

Cb4 = Stereo is there and is pure 2 channel stereo now and called that..

Yes!
post #6604 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

Bigant:

Typically one must delay the subwoofer more than the main speakers because the filters in the subs crossovers add electrical delay.

Jeff

Jeff I think it's often the other way around. Delay the mains to match the sub because of the added electrical delay on the sub.

REW can be a useful tool for sub delay/phase management.
post #6605 of 6790
Double "yes" to the new true "Stereo" mode! I honestly would call for someone at Theta to be fired tongue.gif if this had not been fixed with CB IV.
post #6606 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruzonsky View Post

Again, I need to read this stuff from the Sound Doctor. Sure got you folks goin' - figured it would!

Anyone who wants a copy of that email, AVS PM me with your email and I'll shoot you a copy.

Ah the crawl around on the floor technique! http://www.soundoctor.com/whitepapers/subs.htm Been there, done that.
post #6607 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Jeff I think it's often the other way around. Delay the mains to match the sub because of the added electrical delay on the sub.

REW can be a useful tool for sub delay/phase management.

In my home system, for example, the mains are 13.4 feet while the sub is reported at 30 feet. If the sub was actually 30 feet away it would be in a different room.

Jeff
post #6608 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

For you guys trying to work out how much delay is being imposed on your sub channels by the subs dsp or what not, rather than guessing why don't you break out REW and measure to find out for sure.

Just connect REW straight to your sub with a loopback cable connected on your USB pre amp and select loop back in REW and then you can measure exactly the delay required for your subs. And main channels as well. If you measure your mains thru your processor tho you will have propagation delay to factor in also.

My Aerial subs don't seem to have hardly any dsp delay but my velodynes have quite some delay. And one has 5ms more than the other for some weird reason. Once I had measured these distances using REW and adjusted the delays in my pro from the tape measured delays, things got much much tighter. A you can imagine.

My post from the previous page. REW and other programs alike remove a lot of the guess work and indeed hard slugging what with the new room simulator
Edited by djnickuk - 2/19/14 at 1:18pm
post #6609 of 6790
Yep, as I mentioned above, REW is a very useful tool...
post #6610 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Yep, as I mentioned above, REW is a very useful tool...

Yep, as i mentioned a few posts before yours. But the reason I shared I quoted it was because I wanted to add some more info, but forgot to. Now added.
post #6611 of 6790
I need to pull the proverbial out and start looking at/using REW!
post #6612 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBruzonsky View Post

~~By the way, the latest issue of Widescreen Review, just out today, has a long interview with Theta Digital - Dave Reich, President; Morris Kessler, ATI owner/owner of Theta; and Jeff Hipps, Sales Manager. They mention stuff that Craig/VGI has already leaked here on the forum: Dirac Live running at 96k; new DSP running at 96k but capable of upgrade later to run at 192k; new digital input card for coax, etc; and all the extra room this leaves for later upgradeability. They also discuss the CB3 HD's and coming CB4's DACs,noting software upgrades that have improved sonics of the Extreme DACs over time.
Just received my copy in the mail today. Great reading and I got some new insights. This is a classics piece from Widescreen Review. Great info.
post #6613 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

Anyone else besides me like to hear Nat King Cole in 3-channel LPCM? I have some classical recording in 3-track also. Best of luck trying to get the Casablanca to play it natively without any further processing!
There were six SACDs of remastered Nat King Cole albums in their original 3-channel format. I only picked up one of them: the 2-disc greatest hits album (The Nat King Cole Story - which is now available as a DSD download). I love it. Reminds me what a shame it was that "stereo" couldn't be delivered as it had originally been invented (3 channels, 3 speakers).

BTW, why wouldn't the Casablanca be able to play it back natively without further processing? If you select the 3-channel track (there is a 2-channel track included on all six SACDs as well), then sound should only come out of the 3 front speakers.
post #6614 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post


There were six SACDs of remastered Nat King Cole albums in their original 3-channel format. I only picked up one of them: the 2-disc greatest hits album (The Nat King Cole Story - which is now available as a DSD download). I love it. Reminds me what a shame it was that "stereo" couldn't be delivered as it had originally been invented (3 channels, 3 speakers).

BTW, why wouldn't the Casablanca be able to play it back natively without further processing? If you select the 3-channel track (there is a 2-channel track included on all six SACDs as well), then sound should only come out of the 3 front speakers.

 

Sdurani is right. You simply set a source input on the CB3 HD enabling the front left and right, and the front center, channels; using "Matrix" mode.

post #6615 of 6790
If it's 3 channel won't the CB pick up "Multichannel LPCM" and switch to that rather than Matrix? You just need to start with any multichannel setting.
post #6616 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

The solution for the other formats for me is as you've already mentioned - simple enough and one button does it, so I do not see this as a big deal:
Input 1 is movie 7.1,
Input 2 is movie 5.1,
Input 3 is movie 2.0,
Input 4 is music SACD 5 channel, set Oppo to output LPCM for SACD as per the setup help link in my signature
Input 5 is music 2.0

Thanks Sanjay, and I believe Steve K is correct. I don't have a 3 channel disc to test but I do know that if you set the Oppo to output LPCM for SACD source then CBIII HD does NOT do any processing.

This is how SACD through Oppo/Theta CBIII HD should be setup in the first place; meaning, if you follow my scheme above, you don't even have to turn off the surround speakers as per Sanjay's suggestion. It should just play 3 channel automatically. I don't have anything to test though so this is simply a guess.

I have the stunning Nat King Cole remastered lp "Love Is the Thing," and multiple Mercury Living Presence LP's from Harry Pearson's superdisc list, but don't follow digital release so was completely unaware of these 3 channel SACD's. How totally cool - the way that it should always have been.
This might be the first time that a digital source may sound better than my Mercury Living Presence LP. Hmmm hmmm hmmm - more toys (3 channel SACD's), wonderful!
post #6617 of 6790
Why is it that one can not add processing to the SACD LPCM streams? As this is so in my RS20i also. You can apply Dirac but not pl2 / neo etc.
post #6618 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Why is it that one can not add processing to the SACD LPCM streams? As this is so in my RS20i also. You can apply Dirac but not pl2 / neo etc.
I use PLIIx in the SSP-800 on top of 2-ch or 5.1-ch SACDs. The "funny" thing might be that the sample rate of 88.2 kHz (from the Oppo) is a little unusual vs. 48 or 96 kHz.
post #6619 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannga View Post

3 channel classical and Nat King Cole: Very nice, you are a man of great taste and I didn't realize some of us are doing this, is it Mercury? What's the source - digital or analog and is there actually some processor out there that does true 3 channels only?

The solution for the other formats for me is as you've already mentioned - simple enough and one button does it, so I do not see this as a big deal:
Input 1 is movie 7.1,
Input 2 is movie 5.1,
Input 3 is movie 2.0,
Input 4 is music SACD 5 channel,
Input 5 is music 2.0

Once I am used to this setup, it is truly a 1/2 second decision and push. In comparison, it takes a lot longer to set up the Bluray player to output the desirable audio format (than to select which input on Theta).

Yes, that's what I do, too, but it's getting more and more outrageous as more formats and standards come out. It adds an extra step after choosing the audio selection. True, it's not a huge deal, but it would be nice to see it corrected/updated.

It would be super nice to have a PURE setting so we could just have input 1 for Bluray, input 2 for PC, etc. and hear what's being sent without any post-processing (having to choose "matrix", make sure this is set, and that is set...)

Have you heard any of the wonderful audio-only blurays from 2L? They are absolutely mind blasting! SteveB should really try some (if he hasn't already) on his system. The perspective on the surround tracks can be middle of the ensemble, but there's also a stereo track that presents a more traditional soundstage.

Nat "King" Cole 3-channel SACDs are from Analogue Productions. Classical that I have 3-channel are from older Living Stereo releases such as Tchaikovsky / Rachmaninoff piano concertos. Check them out if you like that sort of stuff smile.gif

post #6620 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There were six SACDs of remastered Nat King Cole albums in their original 3-channel format. I only picked up one of them: the 2-disc greatest hits album (The Nat King Cole Story - which is now available as a DSD download). I love it. Reminds me what a shame it was that "stereo" couldn't be delivered as it had originally been invented (3 channels, 3 speakers).

BTW, why wouldn't the Casablanca be able to play it back natively without further processing? If you select the 3-channel track (there is a 2-channel track included on all six SACDs as well), then sound should only come out of the 3 front speakers.

Yes, but why is that only for channels more than 2? It leaves the 3-channel and 5-channel LPCM alone, but not 2-channel?!?!? For example, I was listening to a multichannel Bob Dylan SACD yesterday, no problem I got the MULTICHANNEL LPCM display overriding any post processing. When I switched to the 2-channel tracks (just to see how it compared) I then had to choose my 2-channel input on the CB3. Not a huge deal, but unnecessary in this day.

2 channel is technically multi-channel! tongue.gif

I hear you regarding the shame that we've had to settle for 2-channel all these years because of technical limitations dating back so many years. I believe the engineers at Bell Labs said a minimum of 3 channels would be needed to properly present a convincing soundstage for playback. When I heard Auro3D and other wonderful surround demonstrations I wonder what they would think if they could hear what we all have at home now!

post #6621 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

Yes, that's what I do, too, but it's getting more and more outrageous as more formats and standards come out. It adds an extra step after choosing the audio selection. True, it's not a huge deal, but it would be nice to see it corrected/updated.
Is it not safe to assume that all this baggage from yesteryear will be gone in the CBIV? It would then operate like more typical surround processors, where one setting gets the native signals from the disc to the speakers, regardless if it is 2 to 7.1 channels.
post #6622 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Is it not safe to assume that all this baggage from yesteryear will be gone in the CBIV? It would then operate like more typical surround processors, where one setting gets the native signals from the disc to the speakers, regardless if it is 2 to 7.1 channels.

That's what I'm hoping will happen, but I started this discussion to see what Craig/VGI, StereoJeff, or anyone else knew what Theta's stance on this was going forward.

Would be great to see all the strange setup procedures from yesteryear (like entering ms delay instead of distance...ugh) get updated and/or disappear.

I'm just not sure, by the reaction I'm getting, if this is something anyone else cares about.
post #6623 of 6790
Crystal clear answers have already been provided with respect to the CB III and the CB IV. I doubt anyone will comment with respect to 2016's CB V rolleyes.gif
post #6624 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

There were six SACDs of remastered Nat King Cole albums in their original 3-channel format. I only picked up one of them: the 2-disc greatest hits album (The Nat King Cole Story - which is now available as a DSD download). I love it. Reminds me what a shame it was that "stereo" couldn't be delivered as it had originally been invented (3 channels, 3 speakers).

Sanjay, I'm trying to find the DSD download of Nat King Cole. Although it's sold through AcousticSounds.com, only the 2-channel is available as a DSD download. It appears the 3-channel version is only on SACD. Please let me know if it's available as a 3-channel DSD download from anywhere else. You guys have me intrigued and I'd like to purchase this 3-channel version.

Since I put all my music on a server, I don't like buying SACD's since it's not possible to extract the files and put them on a server (at least not easily). This is the sole reason I'm anti-SACD. So I'd really like to buy the DSD download.

Sorry for posting off-topic - but this has me intrigued!
post #6625 of 6790
Hey Big Ant, don't worry, I care too. I value keeping original signals intact, too. If I had the choice, I'd prefer an "auto" mode rather than "direct" since direct often bypasses all delays, bass management, and equalization. That's perfectly fine in a perfect world of equal distances and full range towers with a properly treated room. An auto mode would at least auto detect what is coming in and distribute it to the appropriate native channels without further additional channel processing. As I've voiced earlier, my fear is a mono surround collapse in the surround back channels with some soundtracks.
post #6626 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Crystal clear answers have already been provided with respect to the CB III and the CB IV. I doubt anyone will comment with respect to 2016's CB V rolleyes.gif

Please point me to these "crystal clear answers" because I've yet to see them.
post #6627 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by HowardV View Post

Sanjay, I'm trying to find the DSD download of Nat King Cole. Although it's sold through AcousticSounds.com, only the 2-channel is available as a DSD download. It appears the 3-channel version is only on SACD. Please let me know if it's available as a 3-channel DSD download from anywhere else. You guys have me intrigued and I'd like to purchase this 3-channel version.
Since I own the SACD, I've never looked at the downloads. So if you don't see the 3-channel version, then they're only offering the 2-channel download.
post #6628 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereojeff View Post

In my home system, for example, the mains are 13.4 feet while the sub is reported at 30 feet. If the sub was actually 30 feet away it would be in a different room.

Jeff

How is this reported? Through DIRAC?
post #6629 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777BigAnt777 View Post

Please point me to these "crystal clear answers" because I've yet to see them.

Post 6576 for starters. It has been discussed numerous times in this forum, and during the time that you've been a participant, that in order to get the CB III to auto-select to "Multichannel LPCM" it's mode setting needs to have started with a multichannel mode. It has also been mentioned that in order to to get true "Stereo" mode with 2 channel sources one needs to use Matrix mode with other channels turned off. The reasons for this legacy quirk have also been explained (the CB's Stereo mode was designed for people playing multichannel discs on a stereo system). In post 6576 you learnt that this "quirk" has been rectified for the CB IV and we now have a Stereo mode that, well, is indeed stereo as we would think of it (so no need for Multichannel LPCM auto-selection or Matrix settings in this Stereo mode).

(BTW do you always feel the need to increase the default text size of your posts to add some sort of emphasis? Just curious.)
post #6630 of 6790
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevekale View Post

Post 6576 for starters. It has been discussed numerous times in this forum, and during the time that you've been a participant, that in order to get the CB III to auto-select to "Multichannel LPCM" it's mode setting needs to have started with a multichannel mode. It has also been mentioned that in order to to get true "Stereo" mode with 2 channel sources one needs to use Matrix mode with other channels turned off. The reasons for this legacy quirk have also been explained (the CB's Stereo mode was designed for people playing multichannel discs on a stereo system). In post 6576 you learnt that this "quirk" has been rectified for the CB IV and we now have a Stereo mode that, well, is indeed stereo as we would think of it (so no need for Multichannel LPCM auto-selection or Matrix settings in this Stereo mode).

(BTW do you always feel the need to increase the default text size of your posts to add some sort of emphasis? Just curious.)

I'm well aware of all the Casblanca's setup quirks; I'm not looking for any setup help.

Post #6619 and #6620 explained that clearly I thought.

I appreciate all the responses from everyone.

I was just wondering and asking if, in the future via a firmware upgrade or software update, this will change so I (and others) don't need to make additional special inputs for one source to listen to certain discs or files properly, i.e. natively.

So far no one from Theta has answered so I'm guessing the answer is leaning towards "NO." So I can expect more of the same going forward. Fair enough.

I'm done for now smile.gif

(answer: No, I just like it)
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