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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450
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SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 7

post #181 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcoop View Post
Well you are welcome very little!...not sure why the sarcasm, but the ears can be very SUBJECTIVE.

mrcoop....aka---->mr wizard
Oh I was just poke'n fun at the part where you mentioned you didn't get very much out of the review, I'm sorry I called you Mr Wizard, just kidd'n
post #182 of 1241
Just happen to see this and i have to say is great job guy's!.
I loved the videos. I think avsforums needs to pick these guy's up for review jobs! best read i ever saw!. Must of had fun playing and testing them.
post #183 of 1241
Wow. Nice job guys! That was really fun and informative, and extremely generous of you guys to take the time to do this.

Thanks!
post #184 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I wouldn't pay over retail and I hope others wouldn't either (no offence meant towards the testers). They're used not aged like Scotch! BTW, in a very brief attempt to try and get some insight into what ED's policy is on things like returns and warranties, I didn't come across anything on their website. Was I not patient enough in finding it or is it just in some obscure place?


http://www.edesignaudio.com/rma_faq.php
post #185 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by lwj81 View Post

It's in the Help section.

thank you sir.

I have to say, if I'm reading the information correctly a sub would fall under the "speaker" part of their warranty. The amp only has a one year warranty?

Given the comments about the problems with their amps that seems a little light.
post #186 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarny View Post

QUOTE - Madaeel

Oh and even though we love the VTF-15H's feet, maybe consider offering an optional set of feet that transfer less to the floor for people who don't? Ok, we're done grasping at straws now.

What we like/were impressed with:
The driver is so powerful you can actually see the enclosure vibrate when its maxed out. (You're not gonna place anything on top of a sub this gorgeous anyways so that's not a bad thing).



Kwarny - It may be due to the fact that the feet transferred more energy to the floor than the others. Not an expert but the HSU's cabinet not being as inert compared to the others at max output may account for this presence.

The VTF-3 MK3 has different feet, same result.
post #187 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

Ricci,

I agree with you. But that maybe just a couple of db. It is difficult to get everything in exactly same. We just have to keep in mind that subs with greater extension will be under heavier stress. The power that is used to put out that extra extension can be used in more audible band. .

True... I just wanted to put that out there. You know how just a couple of extra decibals can be huge among this crowd.

BTW...Your subs have been doing quite well in the couple of tests done lately. Kudos for hanging it out there.
post #188 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmik View Post

I believe Ethan and Adam set it to 14/low. They basically looked at the FR curves on our FV15 product page and get a lot of information on how to set it for the test. I was a bit nervous that they may use the wrong setting. But their reply was the instruction was very clear. As you can see that curve has also quite a bit of correlation to what Ethan/Adam got. The same thing goes to AH shootout. I did send email to Gene beforehand to set it to 14hz/low as that will give us the flattest extension. That AH curve is almost a replicate of what we had measured. There are more than one ways to get the FR curves and they should all correlate very well.

That's curious, I wonder if any of the other Sub manufactures were able to have thier subs setup for the flattest extention? ( in regards to Gene's "shootout"
post #189 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

That's curious, I wonder if any of the other Sub manufactures were able to have thier subs setup for the flattest extention? ( in regards to Gene's "shootout"


+1... and it seems that HSU guys did not pay attention to this and are paying the price for not even been mentioned at AH the Pro: "Delivers true 20Hz performance"

This missing classification is something that definitely do not match with what these guys here experimented and described.

Sorry about HSU. It seeems Rythmik have a little more "street fight" experience!
post #190 of 1241
I have read and re-read every review and still am impressed at the herculean effort you guys put forth. Can you guys start an audio review website? Seriously.

On another note, the only comment I have is this: the A7s-450's performance becomes MUCH improved with the up-until-recently included for free eQ.2. I got mine for free with my A7s-450 and used it, in conjunction with my buddy's pro-audio hand held full spectrum RTA to flatten my in-room FR.

My living room is an open area about 24'x24' with a vaulted ceiling (11.5' at the center hi-point), with a poured concrete foundation (single story residence). Using the eQ.2, I'm now ruler-flat from 63hz down to 25hz, with a 3.5-4ish dB drop at 20Hz. I have it crossed over at 70Hz from my mains.

The character of the sound has DRASTICALLY changed. I went from an A2-300 to this, and the A7s now definitely has a 'rounder' and fuller bottom end than it did previously. The 'boom' is back in a big way. Before using eQ.2 (and the 25Hz boost switch, which I am also employing), I had a sharp roll-off at 35Hz and a strong peak at 58-62Hz. This was to be expected in my room. I can't emphasize enough the HUGE change in the character of the sound.

I said all that to say this: If a company offers an upgrade, I know it's more work to do an A/B, but I wish you guys would have employed the eQ.2 with the A7s-450's eval.

It's such a powerful tool (and even reasonably priced at $85 if bought concurrently)that I believe should serve to work for the eD. Having a sealed sub with the most output (A7s-450), the most powerful amp (A7s-450), and the most headroom (A7s-450) makes it the BEST candidate in this entire shootout for accepting meaningful amounts of eQ while still maintaining good overall headroom. Adding eQ to a ported sub is a tricky proposition unless you have a subsonic filter you can use to filter below the port tuning frequency (The eQ.2 has this feature as well). The fact is, the eQ.2 would be an advantage to nearly every sub in the competition in some fashion or another (for EQ purposes or just a quality outboard subsonic filter). It adds so much, I feel the review of the A7s-450 would have gone much differently if that tool was utilized. It's made such a huge difference for me, I don't think anybody who owns it would not take advantage of it. Another alternative is to use Audyssey Multi-EQ on all the subs, with each in the same position. Just my $.02
post #191 of 1241
Congrats guys, this was truly a superb effort!

I enjoyed reading this all the way through. I love that fact that you stayed true to your words in the beginning/intro video where you talk about this being about FUN first and foremost, and that idea runs through the reviews.

You get my highest compliments, and now we can all see why it took so long to put this together!
post #192 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I have read and re-read every review and still am impressed at the herculean effort you guys put forth. Can you guys start an audio review website? Seriously.

On another note, the only comment I have is this: the A7s-450's performance becomes MUCH improved with the up-until-recently included for free eQ.2. I got mine for free with my A7s-450 and used it, in conjunction with my buddy's pro-audio hand held full spectrum RTA to flatten my in-room FR.

My living room is an open area about 24'x24' with a vaulted ceiling (11.5' at the center hi-point), with a poured concrete foundation (single story residence). Using the eQ.2, I'm now ruler-flat from 63hz down to 25hz, with a 3.5-4ish dB drop at 20Hz. I have it crossed over at 70Hz from my mains.

The character of the sound has DRASTICALLY changed. I went from an A2-300 to this, and the A7s now definitely has a 'rounder' and fuller bottom end than it did previously. The 'boom' is back in a big way. Before using eQ.2 (and the 25Hz boost switch, which I am also employing), I had a sharp roll-off at 35Hz and a strong peak at 58-62Hz. This was to be expected in my room. I can't emphasize enough the HUGE change in the character of the sound.

I said all that to say this: If a company offers an upgrade, I know it's more work to do an A/B, but I wish you guys would have employed the eQ.2 with the A7s-450's eval.

It's such a powerful tool (and even reasonably priced at $85 if bought concurrently)that I believe should serve to work for the eD. Having a sealed sub with the most output (A7s-450), the most powerful amp (A7s-450), and the most headroom (A7s-450) makes it the BEST candidate in this entire shootout for accepting meaningful amounts of eQ while still maintaining good overall headroom. Adding eQ to a ported sub is a tricky proposition unless you have a subsonic filter you can use to filter below the port tuning frequency (The eQ.2 has this feature as well). The fact is, the eQ.2 would be an advantage to nearly every sub in the competition in some fashion or another (for EQ purposes or just a quality outboard subsonic filter). It adds so much, I feel the review of the A7s-450 would have gone much differently if that tool was utilized. It's made such a huge difference for me, I don't think anybody who owns it would not take advantage of it. Another alternative is to use Audyssey Multi-EQ on all the subs, with each in the same position. Just my $.02

I'm glad you brought that up Buford! After reading all of this, it made me seriously second guess whether the A7S-450 would be the right buy. On paper, it definitely looks the best overall spec wise.

Quick question for the reviewers...

You guys had mentioned that the 18.1 likes to dance around unless you put something heavy on it? Is this a serious potential issue? If I were to go with this sub I would prefer to have the rack amp, oddly enough, in my rack! In fact, that's 1 thing I like the most about that sub, having an outboard amp. Also speaking of that amp, what is the deal with the light clipping all the time? Others who own this sub have mentioned this as well. Another potential issue, or just a light show?
Thanks guys!
post #193 of 1241
The review was quite specific when it came to the shortcomings of that particular sub. The fit and finish, the "dancing" cabinet, the amp that clipped very quickly, the "sticky" driver that became a dust collector, etc. Why would you be considering it over all the others?
post #194 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The review was quite specific when it came to the shortcomings of that particular sub. The fit and finish, the "dancing" cabinet, the amp that clipped very quickly, the "sticky" driver that became a dust collector, etc. Why would you be considering it over all the others?

Mainly due to the performance and price. Plus with it having the outboard amp. Also with Craig promising to address QC issues, I don't see a good enough reason to completely rule it out. Especially since I'm not planning on buying for a few more weeks to a month or so.
post #195 of 1241
Hmm, OK then, to recap... the sub was only able to keep up with the output of the Ed by driving the amp to extreme levels of clipping. The bros chose to ignore the clipping as they said it didn't seem to be causing any audible issues (?). In fact, after re-reading the review yet again the only positive aspect of that particular sub seems to be SQ, which is, of course , entirely subjective. If the outboard amp is that important then I guess that sub is your only choice among the five, but I don't see any other compelling reason to consider it, at least according to what I read.
post #196 of 1241
Why when I bring up specifics of the review do you seem to take it that way? What did I say that wasn't written? Or are you just dead set on buying that particular sub regardless?


Hmm, nice, go back and delete your reply so mine no longer has context. WTF?
post #197 of 1241
Here we go again. Let the crap fly.
post #198 of 1241
Why are you turning this thread into a thread about me? And what I'm looking for in a sub? WTF?
post #199 of 1241
I think you did that with your reply! I was pointing out shortcomings in the review of the sub you were asking about. that's all.

If you aren't really concerned with what was said in the review then buy anything you want, who cares... good luck!
post #200 of 1241
To Adam and Ethan, how much did you experiment with the Rythmik and Hsu's adjustable tuning points? Can you briefly describe what sort of difference in sound the different modes created? Again, fantastic shootout, thank you for all the effort you guys put in this. This is truly one of the best posts this forum has ever seen. There are so many great touches, the high definition videos, the music selection, etc.

added: also to some other guys, if you want to slam one of the subs here at all, please take it to another thread. It would suck to see this one turn into a flame war. Anyway, I think the end result showed that they are all great subs, each with their own strengths. These subs are what happens when subwoofers are made by people who care about bass, and not just the perfunctory efforts by brick-and-mortar companies. I would rather have any of the subs here than the $1k subs from Polk, Deftech, or Klipsch, and if you are reading this, you probably do too.
post #201 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I think you did that with your reply! I was pointing out shortcomings in the review of the sub you were asking about. that's all.

If you aren't really concerned with what was said in the review then buy anything you want, who cares... good luck!

I am concerned about what was said in the review which is why I asked those questions. Seriously wtf. Way to turn something positive into something negative. Good luck to you to!
post #202 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

That's curious, I wonder if any of the other Sub manufactures were able to have thier subs setup for the flattest extention? ( in regards to Gene's "shootout"

In AH it was well known beforehand that was going to be a shootout. There was enough time for every manufacturer to send in whatever the greatest setting for the FR test. BTW, the CEA (single frequency) MAX SPL reading has nothing to do with frequency response. On the other hand, Ethan/Adam bought the sub first and told me it was a shootout 2 weeks after that. I was kind of scrambling to make sure they used the right setting. But even in this case, they did use the right thing.

BTW, someone in Hsu's thread mentioned that Hsu has the same clean stop as the Rythmik. I need to clarify that. If you look at the VTF-15H video closely, you can see the cone always return from "out" position to resting position. And the return is slow enough that you can almost see the trace of coming to rest. It is not due to enclosure moving because one can clearly see the enclosure edge (or the driver edge) does not move as much as others. It is also surprising that Empire's enclosure actually move quite a bit in the video. Maybe the acoustic energy moved the camera. But I can understand why Chase moved more because it was on its side and that is not really what the enclosure is designed for. Cannot see much about eD, because the enclosure edge is not visible.
post #203 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post

I am concerned about what was said in the review which is why I asked those questions. Seriously wtf. Way to turn something positive into something negative. Good luck to you to!

The review was quite specific, and the facts speak for themselves. What further elaboration is needed, and why the heck can't we discuss the results? Good luck right back at you, and if you're gonna post, have the nads to not go back and quickly delete!
post #204 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Here we go again. Let the crap fly.

I'm surprised it took 193 posts.
post #205 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

Why when I bring up specifics of the review do you seem to take it that way? What did I say that wasn't written? Or are you just dead set on buying that particular sub regardless?


Hmm, nice, go back and delete your reply so mine no longer has context. WTF?

That's why you always want to use the quote function.

Anyways, I never said I was dead set on buying the 18.1. I asked questions in regards to the 18.1 that I was curious about. And that's it. Hey, I'm open to buying whatever ends up being the best option for me when I am ready to buy in about a month. Thing's could change a month from now in terms of what might be my best option, for me.
post #206 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The review was quite specific, and the facts speak for themselves. What further elaboration is needed, and why the heck can't we discuss the results? Good luck right back at you, and if you're gonna post, have the nads to not go back and quickly delete!

Maybe you should have the nads to not continuously edit your comments??? Seriously get over me and what I am looking for in a sub. Thanks!
post #207 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

The review was quite specific, and the facts speak for themselves. What further elaboration is needed, and why the heck can't we discuss the results? Good luck right back at you, and if you're gonna post, have the nads to not go back and quickly delete!

Pool Boy is he spending your money? Did he come out and say that the CS sub was the clear winner and no other sub should be considered? No, he didn't. He asked a question about the clipping light that they say seems to come on prematurely. I understand you are not a fan of Chase Home Theater, but give it a rest man. He asked a simple question.
post #208 of 1241
I have the first 18.1 with the plate amp and the thing regularly hits 118-120 db in my 1550 cubed room and hardly jumps at all. We have picture frames on it and they dont even move. If the external amp model has some movement it wouldnt bother me that much honestly. I mean who listens to movies at -5 from reference and expects their sub to be totally inert? Mine as well build the thing out of metal like Krell.
post #209 of 1241
I sense a thread lock in the future.
post #210 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post

I said all that to say this: If a company offers an upgrade, I know it's more work to do an A/B, but I wish you guys would have employed the eQ.2 with the A7s-450's eval.

I own a eQ.2 and it takes a fair amount of tinkering to be effective. Their are no digital displays (just knobs) and the eq width utilizes octaves vs. frequencies, so you gotta pull out your calculator and start plotting numbers to find where you want to apply the boost/knock out a peak. You could literally spend a day measuring, tuning, and re-measuring trying to use it to flatten out a response.

It's not a bad tool, but if they were trying trying to use it with all 5 subs as you suggested, they woulda been in for another 40+ hours of testing and evaluation. We wouldn't have seen this great work until March.
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