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SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 11

post #301 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by yadfgp View Post
I'm glad you brought that up Buford! After reading all of this, it made me seriously second guess whether the A7S-450 would be the right buy. On paper, it definitely looks the best overall spec wise.

Quick question for the reviewers...

You guys had mentioned that the 18.1 likes to dance around unless you put something heavy on it? Is this a serious potential issue? If I were to go with this sub I would prefer to have the rack amp, oddly enough, in my rack! In fact, that's 1 thing I like the most about that sub, having an outboard amp. Also speaking of that amp, what is the deal with the light clipping all the time? Others who own this sub have mentioned this as well. Another potential issue, or just a light show?
Thanks guys!
I forgot to add re: amp light since my initial post here? or in my build thread.

Audyssey had set my sub to +5....My xbox360 input signal also seems really high? since when my AVR is on -20 I'm getting SPLs during movies north of 110.

Once I got my HTPC in, and reran Audyssey and manually set the level to 0 on Audyssey, I've only had the amp flicker a couple times running it through demos.

Seems like a couple other guys on the CHT forum have had Audyssey set their signal high and the resulting red light coming on with fairly normal sub levels or so we thought.

Someone can correct my lingo, new at this.
post #302 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68

Although I agree with your sentiments I think your link is a poor example. The next two pictures in the gallery are what some would consider large defects in the finish Love your computer setup by the way
Defects caused by shipping damage. Yes. I didn't remove the pictures as to hide anything.

Drop any sub on the corner and I'm sure something happens.

Sans the shipping damage do you consider that finish extremely rough?
post #303 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by BufordTJustice View Post
"BufordTJustice, I can't begin to seperate the confusion you've inserted into your interpretations of my posts. It's a hopeless cause. "

I get it. That's code for "I'm not going to specifically rebut any of your points, I'm just going to call you a name so that I feel better." Come on bro...really? You're gonna take it there? I haven't insulted you at all...and now your most recent post is tantamount to name calling. I not going to respond to you any more on this thread after this post, for fear that this thread is gonna turn into some bullsh*t that it doesn't need to be.

I feel I've articulated my points clearly...and you disagree. I've asked you to clarify WHY you disagree and you're refusing to do that. I'm tracking.

For the record, I'm a cop and I do not have the time or the money to conduct a test like this on my own. I have no intention of doing so as I feel that it would add little to what Adam and Ethan have given to us.

"I'm sorry they didn't do the review YOU wanted done with external parametric EQ's on the subs.

I'm lying by the way... i'm not sorry the OP's didn't do the review YOU wanted. I'm glad they did the review THEY wanted. It was their time and money."


I'm not emotionally involved in our discussion...so I don't feel "sorry" or "not sorry" for anything that you or I have stated. Obviously you are emotionally invested and I'm done until you decide to cool down a few notches.

I've asked you specific questions that you have declined to answer; our discussion is over, sir.

On with the thread.....
There's no comment here about subwoofers. I agree this shouldn't be personal.

Back to my original statement in respect to your eQ.2 issues before it devolved. We'll have to agree to disagree. I find the eQ.2 with it's lack of digital displays and it's overall unfriendlyness to be effective for what it is supposed to do, but burdensome. You think it's a breeze and people who don't find it to be a breeze to be "I'm not calling you or anybody else lazy who doesn't want to go to the trouble of tinkering, but there isn't that much to it."... otherwise calling them unintelligent or lazy. That's your opinion.
post #304 of 1241
Sub what sub? there was a sub in that picture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post
You just don't quit huh? "extremely rough". Give me a break.

You hate the subs. You don't give them a fair shot. We get it. Take a deep Breath and let the anger go man. We all know how you feel you make sure of it.

Look how EXTREMELY ROUGH this is?

http://gallery.me.com/chrisdlind/100187/IMG_3009

Also how many watts will you have when the amps fail?

I have read a lot about the eD amps going out, are they true, who knows, if I took your stance I would be sure to mention the amps failing in every thread possible.
post #305 of 1241
I'm posting from my iPhone. I should have removed the picture of the wife. Lol.

Edit - I'm done with messing up the intention of this thread.

Great job guys. I think it's safe to say any sub on the list would be a great sub to have.

I was torn between the A7S and CHT but the long wait and just getting a 3D projector installed meant I wanted subs ASAP. So I pulled the trigger on CHT. I am happy an likely would have been happy with the A7S also.
post #306 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

... I should have removed the picture of the wife. Lol.

Dude, read your bible: Gen 2:86 "And thou shalt leaveth thine image of thoust wife - who art lovely in form - upon thy interweb forum, that thou shalt receiveth admiration from thy fellow man."

Sorry man, I don't write the rules I just follow them.
post #307 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Dude, read your bible: Gen 2:86 "And thou shalt leaveth thine image of thoust wife - who art lovely in form - upon thy interweb forum, that thou shalt receiveth admiration from thy fellow man."

Sorry man, I don't write the rules I just follow them.

Too Funny!!!
post #308 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Dude, read your bible: Gen 2:86 "And thou shalt leaveth thine image of thoust wife - who art lovely in form - upon thy interweb forum, that thou shalt receiveth admiration from thy fellow man."

Sorry man, I don't write the rules I just follow them.

We have a thread that is titled "Show us your subwoofer." Maybe we should start a new thread?

All in favor say AYE.
post #309 of 1241
We could improve the readability of many of these sub threads if we created a sticky called "Never saw or heard a Chase Sub but must bash it."
post #310 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by wproie View Post

We could improve the readability of many of these sub threads if we created a sticky called "Never saw or heard a Chase Sub but must bash it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

We have a thread that is titled "Show us your subwoofer." Maybe we should start a new thread?

All in favor say AYE.

Double Aye.
post #311 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I believe in multiple subs myself, and so I keep an eye on the price as it will wind up being doubled! If and when I upgrade my twin LFM-1EX subs the replacements will need to kick some serious A$$, or else I wouldn't bother. Two A7S-450s I could swing, the Rythmik would be one at a time. And then there's the Captivator.....

By the time Im done in 2011 I will have probably extras... 2 18" woofers, 2 15" woofers that are highly respected in the DIY community. I already have 2 TC-2000 15" collecting dust, even a LT/1300 amp sits unused (its in the eD sub). More projects more tests.....what does that mean to you??..... you need to figure out a road trip to my northern Florida ( ie My Garage)
post #312 of 1241
to the OP, thanks for doing this shootout. i would like to get your take on the epik sub and how you found it had a lot of midbass slam. from the graphs, it seems to have the lowest FR in comparison to the rest so im wondering why you felt it had the best midbass. do you think it sounds meatier due to the use of 2 drivers?
post #313 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I've been here for nearly 9 years. In the beginning, there was no separate forum for DIY. I've built some 60 subwoofers and measured and commented on them (and several commercial subwoofers) and the physics and theory of LF reproduction extensively over that period.

The price of the subs and time spent designing, purchasing the parts, building, testing and posting, though it exceeds this shootout buy magnitudes, was just a part of my hobby, but I appreciate the suggestion that I do more for you.

Bosso

I just want to make sure I got this straight. Posting the results for 60 subwoofers that none of us has access to (or might not exist) "exceeds this shootout by magnitudes" ?

Really? C'mon man... I'm not saying that somone sounds like a spoiled kid who isn't getting the attention the OP's are for the effort and must rain on there parade. I don't think that's the case at all.
post #314 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I just want to make sure I got this straight. Posting the results for 60 subwoofers that none of us has access to (or might not exist) "exceeds this shootout by magnitudes" ?

Really? C'mon man... I'm not saying that somone sounds like a spoiled kid who isn't getting the attention the OP's are for the effort and must rain on there parade. I don't think that's the case at all.

Why does everybody work so hard around here to misread what people say. If I said I loaded hauled and stacked 2000 bales of hay, would you say that wasn't work because you don't need hay? (Not that I"ve hauled hay since I was a youngster). The work bosso did was work. Whether it's work you would have wanted him to do doesn't change that fact. I respect bosso's opinions, and on balance don't really think his comments undercut the value of this shootout. It just puts the results into a context that many of us might not have been thinking about. And the comments,to me, are in no way contrary to the stated goals, desires and intentions of the original posters.

You have to take their data for what it's worth. It's room impacted, which they acknowledge. They did not endeavor to maximize the FR of any sub in the room, which they acknowledge. Those facts have consequences, which are largely obvious, but it never hurts to be reminded, because it's easy to get all excited by numbers that we can compare.

I still think I can glean information that is useful to me from this shootout, for which I am most grateful.
post #315 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Why does everybody work so hard around here to misread what people say. If I said I loaded hauled and stacked 2000 bales of hay, would you say that wasn't work because you don't need hay? (Not that I"ve hauled hay since I was a youngster). The work bosso did was work. Whether it's work you would have wanted him to do doesn't change that fact. I respect bosso's opinions, and on balance don't really think his comments undercut the value of this shootout. It just puts the results into a context that many of us might not have been thinking about. And the comments,to me, are in no way contrary to the stated goals, desires and intentions of the original posters.

You have to take their data for what it's worth. It's room impacted, which they acknowledge. They did not endeavor to maximize the FR of any sub in the room, which they acknowledge. Those facts have consequences, which are largely obvious, but it never hurts to be reminded, because it's easy to get all excited by numbers that we can compare.

I still think I can glean information that is useful to me from this shootout, for which I am most grateful.

Whoa, I never said your hay work or bosso's wasn't work. Bosso does have some points... but that doesn't cover the following quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The price of the subs and time spent designing, purchasing the parts, building, testing and posting, though it exceeds this shootout buy magnitudes, was just a part of my hobby, but I appreciate the suggestion that I do more for you.

These quotes are clearly meant to demean and belittle others work, in this case the OP's. To your point, does Bosso's work "exceed this shootout buy(sp?) magnitudes?". You're sticking up for the pot while chastising the kettle.
post #316 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Whoa, I never said your hay work or bosso's wasn't work. Bosso does have some points... but that doesn't cover the following quotes:





These quotes are clearly meant to demean and belittle others work, in this case the OP's. To your point, does Bosso's work "exceed this shootout buy(sp?) magnitudes?". You're sticking up for the pot while chastising the kettle.


I guess I don't get it. I understood the OPs to suggest that their subjective comments should be taken with a grain of salt. Not really inconsistent with Bosso's statement.

If Bosso knows he has 500 or 1000 hours in the work he listed, it simply is true that that's more time than the OPs spent on the shootout. So what?

I don't see how it demeans others. I think he's just responding with what I took as lighthearted jabbing at the suggestion that he, bosso, ought to do more work for the benefit of one or more of the readers of these threads. I take it his answer is "no, thanks." He's entitled to give that answer. He's entitled to suggest he's done plenty of work already. None of which, to me demeans the OPs' work. Context.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not suggesting bosso is the kindest, gentlest poster at AVS. Nor am I an apologist for hin. I just think it's an error to suggest that barbs aimed at a poster with whom bosso is having a "conversatioin" are somehow really aimed at somebody else, like the OPs here.
post #317 of 1241
I think the shootout is just fine. 90% of the poeple who buy Subs do what they did.

Order
Unpack
Hook up
plug and play

many don't even any EQ, RS meter, etc....it's just the way it is and I think that is what this was all about...your average person who knows nothing about numbers or cares less about numbers.
post #318 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Edit: To be clear, I'm not suggesting bosso is the kindest, gentlest poster at AVS. Nor am I an apologist for hin. I just think it's an error to suggest that barbs aimed at a poster with whom bosso is having a "conversatioin" are somehow really aimed at somebody else, like the OPs here.

There seems to be many apologists for his behavior (I know you're saying you're not, but umm... ) and I understand at one point in time he may have helped many a DIY'er, but before jumping to his defense it should be pointed out this isn't the first time he's "come down from the heavens" and thread stomped, discredited and belittled guys who are doing the best they can.

There's nothing wrong with this review - It's a subjective look at 5 subs. Bosso went as far as to say (without provocation) that they shouldn't be giving subjective sub reviews.

It's really too bad some people use there knowledge to stomp out us newb's subjective assessments without offering up a CONSTRUCTIVE alternatives. It's always easier to tear down rather than build... You'd think individuals with sub construction experience would know that.
post #319 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaotikr1 View Post

You just don't quit huh? "extremely rough". Give me a break.

You hate the subs. You don't give them a fair shot. We get it. Take a deep Breath and let the anger go man. We all know how you feel you make sure of it.

Look how EXTREMELY ROUGH this is?

http://gallery.me.com/chrisdlind/100187/IMG_3009

Also how many watts will you have when the amps fail?

I have read a lot about the eD amps going out, are they true, who knows, if I took your stance I would be sure to mention the amps failing in every thread possible.

If you don't like "extremely rough" (I was being kind) how about "worst fit and finish in the shootout - by far"? I looked at your shots, same issues. T-nuts mounted incorrectly, driver not flush mounted, corners not rounded over, etc. Face it, those subs aren't ready for prime time. They don't have the advantage in either performance or price for me to consider them. If you like them, fine, enjoy, but don't rag on me for not liking them. I can only hope the next round of products can meet the level of quality shown by the other subs, and please, check out the review shots of each and you'll see what I mean!
post #320 of 1241
I for one really appreciate the OP's efforts in posting their review, as subjective as it may have been and as lacking in technical information as it may have been. I felt they provided a lot of insight into the pros and cons of each sub and what they did was really helpful to me in evaluating them. I have been thinking of getting the Hsu and appreciate the information on that as well as on the others for comparison purposes. It's all part of an evaluation purpose and I believe it helped a lot more than hindered, so why not have it? If you don't feel what they posted is useful then just move along. Real fast.

Also, +1 for Kermie's post #317 above. I agree.
post #321 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

many don't even any EQ, RS meter, etc....it's just the way it is and I think that is what this was all about...your average person who knows nothing about numbers or cares less about numbers.

I'd say a very small percentage of readers/members here know what their sub's frequency response in their room is, thus don't really know what they're hearing. This leads to colorful discussions.
post #322 of 1241
I only need to say one thing great job guys
post #323 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

There seems to be many apologists for his behavior (I know you're saying you're not, but umm... ) and I understand at one point in time he may have helped many a DIY'er, but before jumping to his defense it should be pointed out this isn't the first time he's "come down from the heavens" and thread stomped, discredited and belittled guys who are doing the best they can.

There's nothing wrong with this review - It's a subjective look at 5 subs. Bosso went as far as to say (without provocation) that they shouldn't be giving subjective sub reviews.

It's really too bad some people use there knowledge to stomp out us newb's subjective assessments without offering up a CONSTRUCTIVE alternatives. It's always easier to tear down rather than build... You'd think individuals with sub construction experience would know that.

I recall when I did a sub shootout, and the shootout was criticized for various reasons, including the fact that we did not try to match the frequency response and truly level match the subs. While I felt humiliated and likely reacted poorly in that thread (can't recall), I learned from those comments and at the next shootout we did we made a better attempt at matching the FR of the subs.

Even more recently when I compared my PB13 to the DIY subs I made, I spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the response as close as possible (not an easy feat for sealed vs ported) before doing any "SQ" comparisons.

Of course, I then commented in a similar fashion by using "SPL Peaks" for various scenes (not understanding why I was getting some of the results I was) and Bosso was one of the first to chime in as to why this was, more or less, entirely meaningless, and after reading his responses (about 27 times) I started to understand why.

So yes, he doesn't come in and sugar coat what he says (and frankly, his post here was quite tame in comparison), he just speaks outright with knowledge that is well beyond what the vast majority of us here have, and often that rubs people (such as yourself apparently, and a few others) the wrong way.

He didn't say "that they shouldn't be giving subjective sub reviews", he offered up several reasons as to why a subjective review in the context of the frequency responses given is somewhat meaningless. If you read his post, you'll understand why. Well, maybe.

What's most humorous is your consistent comments about his posts being meant to "demean and belittle" the work of others, and then post comments such as "all hail Bosso", or "he comes down from the heavens", or "you'd think individuals with construction experience would know that", or comments disputing that he's actually helped a ton of people or tested numerous subs because you haven't seen it, and then in the next breath say "I agree this shouldn't be personal" to others or make analogies about pots and kettles.

What's really unfortunate is the utter lack of desire to actually learn something new that appears to be more and more prevalent from so many users in the subwoofer forum, and fear/hate that is spewed when one expresses knowledge or challenges the norm.

Anyhow, back to the regular scheduled programming...I'm just a "Bosso apologist", so "all hail JackOften" and thank you for "coming down from the heavens" to save us from the likes of Bosso!
post #324 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

I recall when I did a sub shootout, and the shootout was criticized for various reasons, including the fact that we did not try to match the frequency response and truly level match the subs. While I felt humiliated and likely reacted poorly in that thread (can't recall), I learned from those comments and at the next shootout we did we made a better attempt at matching the FR of the subs.

Even more recently when I compared my PB13 to the DIY subs I made, I spent a considerable amount of time trying to get the response as close as possible (not an easy feat for sealed vs ported) before doing any "SQ" comparisons.

Of course, I then commented in a similar fashion by using "SPL Peaks" for various scenes (not understanding why I was getting some of the results I was) and Bosso was one of the first to chime in as to why this was, more or less, entirely meaningless, and after reading his responses (about 27 times) I started to understand why.

So yes, he doesn't come in and sugar coat what he says (and frankly, his post here was quite tame in comparison), he just speaks outright with knowledge that is well beyond what the vast majority of us here have, and often that rubs people (such as yourself apparently, and a few others) the wrong way.

He didn't say "that they shouldn't be giving subjective sub reviews", he offered up several reasons as to why a subjective review in the context of the frequency responses given is somewhat meaningless. If you read his post, you'll understand why. Well, maybe.

What's most humorous is your consistent comments about his posts being meant to "demean and belittle" the work of others, and then post comments such as "all hail Bosso", or "he comes down from the heavens", or "you'd think individuals with construction experience would know that", or comments disputing that he's actually helped a ton of people or tested numerous subs because you haven't seen it, and then in the next breath say "I agree this shouldn't be personal" to others or make analogies about pots and kettles.

What's really unfortunate is the utter lack of desire to actually learn something new that appears to be more and more prevalent from so many users in the subwoofer forum, and fear/hate that is spewed when one expresses knowledge or challenges the norm.

Anyhow, back to the regular scheduled programming...I'm just a "Bosso apologist", so "all hail JackOften" and thank you for "coming down from the heavens" to save us from the likes of Bosso!

+1 . . . all of Bosso's posts really has to be viewed as an education. So to those who love to throw rocks, stop and learn something.
post #325 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

I think the shootout is just fine. 90% of the poeple who buy Subs do what they did.

Order
Unpack
Hook up
plug and play

many don't even any EQ, RS meter, etc....it's just the way it is and I think that is what this was all about...your average person who knows nothing about numbers or cares less about numbers.

Let's say you're right that 90% of the people follow that approach. What, in your opinion, does the person who belongs to that 90% and is looking to buy learn about the subs from this shootout?
post #326 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post


If you don't like "extremely rough" (I was being kind) how about "worst fit and finish in the shootout - by far"? I looked at your shots, same issues. T-nuts mounted incorrectly, driver not flush mounted, corners not rounded over, etc. Face it, those subs aren't ready for prime time. They don't have the advantage in either performance or price for me to consider them. If you like them, fine, enjoy, but don't rag on me for not liking them. I can only hope the next round of products can meet the level of quality shown by the other subs, and please, check out the review shots of each and you'll see what I mean!

Yes. The CHT don't win the awards for looks. I guess I'm not at critical as you. In the grand scheme it doesn't matter much. Nobody has come over and said hey your drivers aren't flush, your t nuts are whack. Etc.

At least I can sit back and listen and not have to rack my brain on which to get. That was not fun!

Enjoy with whatever you get.
post #327 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

+1 . . . all of Bosso's posts really has to be viewed as an education. So to those who love to throw rocks, stop and learn something.

Agreed. Every now and again you run into thin-skinned drama queens.
post #328 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

So yes, he doesn't come in and sugar coat what he says (and frankly, his post here was quite tame in comparison), he just speaks outright with knowledge that is well beyond what the vast majority of us here have, and often that rubs people (such as yourself apparently, and a few others) the wrong way.

He didn't say "that they shouldn't be giving subjective sub reviews", he offered up several reasons as to why a subjective review in the context of the frequency responses given is somewhat meaningless. If you read his post, you'll understand why. Well, maybe.

What's most humorous is your consistent comments about his posts being meant to "demean and belittle" the work of others, and then post comments such as "all hail Bosso", or "he comes down from the heavens", or "you'd think individuals with construction experience would know that", or comments disputing that he's actually helped a ton of people or tested numerous subs because you haven't seen it, and then in the next breath say "I agree this shouldn't be personal" to others or make analogies about pots and kettles.

What's really unfortunate is the utter lack of desire to actually learn something new that appears to be more and more prevalent from so many users in the subwoofer forum, and fear/hate that is spewed when one expresses knowledge or challenges the norm.

Anyhow, back to the regular scheduled programming...I'm just a "Bosso apologist", so "all hail JackOften" and thank you for "coming down from the heavens" to save us from the likes of Bosso!

PBC, i've read more than a handful of your posts (most recently the VTF-15h thread) and though you'll poke holes in theories and/or tests, you don't do it with the 'holier than though' and sheer egotism that others do. Respect.

I did read the post... and some did go over my head, but not the statement in a stand alone paragraph that "I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise." - a self proclaimed subjective and non-professional review. Basically, amatuer reviewers are not allowed to have a useful opinion. IMO it does nothing to encourage the subwoofer community (like yourself in the past) to come to the table with reviews. It's a belittling statement meant to demean and belittle those who took the task seriously, only to be told they shouldn't have bothered.

Bullies are bullies. When a person gets bullied, the best response is to return in kind as it's the only language they understand. As you mentioned, these bullies tend to form a 'fan-club' which appearently i'm a member of, to offset you apologists.

"It's just his way" and "his post here was quite tame in comparison" doesn't give a person carte-blanche to act like an *fill in your word here*. They should, however be expected to treated in-kind.
post #329 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

I think the shootout is just fine. 90% of the poeple who buy Subs do what they did.

Order
Unpack
Hook up
plug and play

many don't even any EQ, RS meter, etc....it's just the way it is and I think that is what this was all about...your average person who knows nothing about numbers or cares less about numbers.

Well said. It seems to me the majority are understanding our reasons for doing things the way we did. And that is awesome because we posted this shootout for those people.

Admittedly, our methodology will change a little when the subs reviewed are in a higher price bracket, because when people put out that kind of money they probably are going to invest more time and money into setting them up. Then we'll most gladly learn from the gurus (well the ones who aren't wearing their grumpy pants anyways.) What won't change is you won't have to read what we say 27 times; we'll still make it fun, easy to grasp and of value.
post #330 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

Well said. It seems to me the majority are understanding our reasons for doing things the way we did. And that is awesome because we posted this shootout for those people.

Admittedly, our methodology will change a little when the subs reviewed are in a higher price bracket, because when people put out that kind of money they probably are going to invest more time and money into setting them up. Then we'll most gladly learn from the gurus (well the ones who aren't wearing their grumpy pants anyways.) What won't change is you won't have to read what we say 27 times; we'll still make it fun, easy to grasp and of value.

Ratio is around 50 thanks per 1 complaint .... THANKS FOR YOUR EFFORT.... APPRECIATED!

EDIT: I forgot that this thread reached 5K views in around 24hrs... My apologies, 5000:1 its a closer number.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450