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SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 12

post #331 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Let's say you're right that 90% of the people follow that approach. What, in your opinion, does the person who belongs to that 90% and is looking to buy learn about the subs from this shootout?

With all ID subs it is very difficult to find anyone to actually go an audition any of these subs. With as many choices out there it is tough to decide and you can sit on these forums for months trying to choose something tripping over all of the technical data and arguements that mean nothing because every room will perform differently.

However, this shootout gave actual visual/video of everything from product packaging, physical size, build quality, some comparisons in spl, and "opinions" from the people doing the shootout to help at least narrow some decisions down from 20 to possibly 2-3 choices.

The bottom line is the "learnings" should be to the average Joe that is wading through miles and miles of threads for weeks and months trying to decide on something that it is maybe a waste of time. If they pick "ANY" of the top discussed subs on this forum at a given price range there is NOT going to be that much of a difference between them to 90% of the people.

Pick one in your price range
Buy it
Unbox it
Plug it in
Rock on

and you will be much happier with it than the sub you are replacing or if you do not have a sub.

Ever since I started measuring every nuance about my room, speaker responses, and sub response and graphs that I forgot how cool it was to throw in a movie and not worry if my room was going to shake, rumble, sub too loud, sub not loud enough, is the speaker pointed in the right direction, do I have a null or peak, am I missing something at 160 Hz...etc.

I have had about 50 people over in my theater and None would know any of this, they just watch and go WOW that was awesome.

Meanwhile during the movie I am constantly looking or listening for something and not enjoying the reason I built the theater in the first place...and that was to enjoy the experience much better than a 42" TV in the family room.

This forum is Excellent but if you are not careful it can be a huge demise if not used with some common sense.

Ignorance is bliss to some extent.

This shootout was great for the average joe and may not appeal to the 10% that will scrutinize numbers, graphs, measurements etc.

I am not criticizing the elite as they know much more than I want to know.
post #332 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by below90hz View Post

...our methodology will change a little when the subs reviewed are in a higher price bracket...

You all heard it here first!!!!

So....

When will the results be posted?

When will the results be posted?

When will the results be posted?

When will the results be posted?

Or shall we start a new thread for the higher price bracket subs so we can all bug you until you post results?

LMAO!!!

Thanks again for the current shootout.
post #333 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

PBC, i've read more than a handful of your posts (most recently the VTF-15h thread) and though you'll poke holes in theories and/or tests, you don't do it with the 'holier than though' and sheer egotism that others do. Respect.

I did read the post... and some did go over my head, but not the statement in a stand alone paragraph that "I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise." - a self proclaimed subjective and non-professional review. Basically, amatuer reviewers are not allowed to have a useful opinion. IMO it does nothing to encourage the subwoofer community (like yourself in the past) to come to the table with reviews. It's a belittling statement meant to demean and belittle those who took the task seriously, only to be told they shouldn't have bothered.

Bullies are bullies. When a person gets bullied, the best response is to return in kind as it's the only language they understand. As you mentioned, these bullies tend to form a 'fan-club' which appearently i'm a member of, to offset you apologists.

"It's just his way" and "his post here was quite tame in comparison" doesn't give a person carte-blanche to act like an *fill in your word here*. They should, however be expected to treated in-kind.

It's not bullying, belittling or demeaning. It's the truth, and Bosso was just pointing out the truth. The value of the subjective statements made in the reviews is only valid for that room, with the subs placed in that location and for that listening position. Change any one of those and the subjective opinions could/would change completely. That is the point Bosso was trying to make, and he's absolutely right. No reader should come to this shootout thread and expect that these results are repeatable anywhere else, especially in their own living rooms/theaters.

The same can be said for virtually *any* subjective review, whether it's the most respected "audiophile" journal or some obscure forum post. The room that the audio system is heard in has such a huge impact on the sound that it will never sound the same in another room. And that is even more apparent the lower in frequency you go. Once you get below the room's Schroeder Frequency, the steady state, in-room response is almost completely controlled by the room. So subjective impressions of what you *hear* in a room, at one listening position are not transferable to other rooms and listening positions.

Having said that, I think the bro's did a hell of a lot of work, put up a very entertaining set of posts and showed some "interesting" results, butt cracks notwithstanding.

Craig
post #334 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by KERMIE View Post

With all ID subs it is very difficult to find anyone to actually go an audition any of these subs. With as many choices out there it is tough to decide and you can sit on these forums for months trying to choose something tripping over all of the technical data and arguements that mean nothing because every room will perform differently.

However, this shootout gave actual visual/video of everything from product packaging, physical size, build quality, some comparisons in spl, and "opinions" from the people doing the shootout to help at least narrow some decisions down from 20 to possibly 2-3 choices.

The bottom line is the "learnings" should be to the average Joe that is wading through miles and miles of threads for weeks and months trying to decide on something that it is maybe a waste of time. If they pick "ANY" of the top discussed subs on this forum at a given price range there is NOT going to be that much of a difference between them to 90% of the people.

Pick one in your price range
Buy it
Unbox it
Plug it in
Rock on

and you will be much happier with it than the sub you are replacing or if you do not have a sub.

Ever since I started measuring every nuance about my room, speaker responses, and sub response and graphs that I forgot how cool it was to throw in a movie and not worry if my room was going to shake, rumble, sub too loud, sub not loud enough, is the speaker pointed in the right direction, do I have a null or peak, am I missing something at 160 Hz...etc.

I have had about 50 people over in my theater and None would know any of this, they just watch and go WOW that was awesome.

Meanwhile during the movie I am constantly looking or listening for something and not enjoying the reason I built the theater in the first place...and that was to enjoy the experience much better than a 42" TV in the family room.

This forum is Excellent but if you are not careful it can be a huge demise if not used with some common sense.

Ignorance is bliss to some extent.

This shootout was great for the average joe and may not appeal to the 10% that will scrutinize numbers, graphs, measurements etc.

I am not criticizing the elite as they know much more than I want to know.

post #335 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It's not bullying, belittling or demeaning. It's the truth, and Bosso was just pointing out the truth. The value of the subjective statements made in the reviews is only valid for that room, with the subs placed in that location and for that listening position. Change any one of those and the subjective opinions could/would change completely. That is the point Bosso was trying to make, and he's absolutely right. No reader should come to this shootout thread and expect that these results are repeatable anywhere else, especially in their own living rooms/theaters.

The same can be said for virtually *any* subjective review, whether it's the most respected "audiophile" journal or some obscure forum post. The room that the audio system is heard in has such a huge impact on the sound that it will never sound the same in another room. And that is even more apparent the lower in frequency you go. Once you get below the room's Schroeder Frequency, the steady state, in-room response is almost completely controlled by the room. So subjective impressions of what you *hear* in a room, at one listening position are not transferable to other rooms and listening positions.

Having said that, I think the bro's did a hell of a lot of work, put up a very entertaining set of posts and showed some "interesting" results, butt cracks notwithstanding.

Craig

Now that's a BIG + 1!
post #336 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

It's not bullying, belittling or demeaning. It's the truth, and Bosso was just pointing out the truth. The value of the subjective statements made in the reviews is only valid for that room, with the subs placed in that location and for that listening position. Change any one of those and the subjective opinions could/would change completely. That is the point Bosso was trying to make, and he's absolutely right. No reader should come to this shootout thread and expect that these results are repeatable anywhere else, especially in their own living rooms/theaters.

The same can be said for virtually *any* subjective review, whether it's the most respected "audiophile" journal or some obscure forum post. The room that the audio system is heard in has such a huge impact on the sound that it will never sound the same in another room. And that is even more apparent the lower in frequency you go. Once you get below the room's Schroeder Frequency, the steady state, in-room response is almost completely controlled by the room. So subjective impressions of what you *hear* in a room, at one listening position are not transferable to other rooms and listening positions.

Having said that, I think the bro's did a hell of a lot of work, put up a very entertaining set of posts and showed some "interesting" results, butt cracks notwithstanding.

Craig

By jumping on the bandwagon, you agree with this quote, the paragraph I'm openly questioning in Bossobass' assessment of the shootout:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

You're saying nothing in this sub shootout should be considered "useful", period.

You're saying that that there observations about build quality, aesthetics, "Plug and Play", customer service experience and what they were impressed with (all subjective observations for any of us) shouldn't be considered useful.

Any professional reviewer would make the same subjective observations. Audioholics does it. Home Theater Mag does it. Secrets of HT does it. Bossobass does it. I'm sure I'll find subjective observations you've made in your posts. Should those not count for anything with anyone?

Why does anyone do a review for that matter? Every review is subjective. Why even have these forums? Using that theory I could jump into nearly every post made on these boards and say "THAT'S NOT USEFUL" (starting with that size 5 font "+1" above my post).

Edit: Yea, I re-read your post for the 3rd time. Thats what you said. I should disregard every sub review done in a anechoic chamber since we all know I don't have one of those. Be prepared when I come busting in to one of your posts quoting you - all advice and observations made by you to be not useful.
post #337 of 1241
Did you miss this part:

Quote:


"I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments..."
post #338 of 1241
So here’s what I’ve learned so far in layman’s terms:

‘Sound Quality’ can actually be scientifically measured. This assumes that you define the best ‘sound quality’ as the closest reproduction of how the director/artist/etc. wanted you to hear it. So, in order to achieve the best sound quality, you should strive to achieve the flattest frequency response possible. But it doesn’t stop there…not only do you need to achieve a flat frequency response, but your subwoofer needs to maintain that flat frequency response from the lowest volume to the highest volume you would listen to (most aspire that this ‘highest volume’ is reference level, but in actuality, most typically listen at some level below reference). And at all times the output is clean and distortion cannot be detected by the human ear.

The problem that everyone here has is that no one lives in an anechoic chamber and we have a room to deal with. As shown by the OPs in the frequency graphs of the 5 subs, the room plays the biggest part in affecting the sound quality (don’t forget, the definition of sound quality above). As some people have pointed out, without level matching the subs (making their frequency response exactly the same), any differences you hear when comparing sub to sub is a function of how the sub interacts with the room not its ability to reproduce what the director/artist/etc. wanted you to hear (sound quality).

But suppose you spent the many hours to level match the subs, you would then have to run frequency sweeps at all volume levels for all subs to see which of them maintain the flattest frequency response regardless of its volume level. (I’m sure there is more scientific and efficient ways of doing this (and saying this), just don’t know what they are). This would tell you how the subs frequency response changes during different music/movie audio clips. The sub that keeps the flattest frequency response when varying volumes would essentially have the best ‘sound quality’. (I’m simplifying as I’m sure there’s a bunch or more things to look for.)

The reality of it is, most do not perform these detail tests with different manufacturer’s subs because they don’t have the time, money, knowledge, or equipment to do so. So as a consumer, what are we left with to help us decide what is the 'best' sub or the sub that has the best ‘sound quality’?

IMO, the only way for you to know what sub is best for you is to buy them and do your own test in YOUR room. Put them in the same spot, run audyssey or some similar auto-eq, and graph the results and record output. Take a listen to them at different volume levels and decide which sounds the best. But even this more subjective approach, most would not be willing to do, so what now?

Do what all of you have been doing: read THIS review and the many other reviews about these subs. Read about the manufacturers. Talk to the manufacturers. Learn from those in the ‘know’ as you read through these reviews. Get an idea of your output requirements (and double them) and match them with an appropriate sub (or two or four). After doing all that research, it will come down to a few subs. PICK ANY OF THEM. If you did your research and know what to look for in these reviews and other reviews, I think it’s safe to say you will be pleased with any of them.
post #339 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

You're saying nothing in this sub shootout should be considered "useful", period.

I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said it wasn't transferable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

You're saying that that there observations about build quality, aesthetics, "Plug and Play", customer service experience and what they were impressed with (all subjective observations for any of us) shouldn't be considered useful.

I didn't say anything about those aspects of the review.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Any professional reviewer would make the same subjective observations. Audioholics does it. Home Theater Mag does it. Secrets of HT does it. Bossobass does it. I'm sure I'll find subjective observations you've made in your posts. Should those not count for anything with anyone?

Why does anyone do a review for that matter? Every review is subjective. Why even have these forums? Using that theory I could jump into nearly every post made on these boards and say "THAT'S NOT USEFUL" (starting with that size 5 font "+1" above my post).

Again, I didn't say that subjective opinions were not useful or valuable to some people. My point and Bosso's was that subjective opinions are only applicable to the date, time and place where they were heard. They are unlikely to be repeatable in other circumstances.

Craig
post #340 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I didn't say it wasn't useful. I said it wasn't transferable.

I didn't say anything about those aspects of the review.

Again, I didn't say that subjective opinions were not useful or valuable to some people. My point and Bosso's was that subjective opinions are only applicable to the date, time and place where they were heard. They are unlikely to be repeatable in other circumstances.

Craig

I didn't say anything about the "transferable" portions of the review either. I commented on this (Let's try the entire quote):

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

The exercise being the review? Certainly looks that way. He said they were capable of subjective opinions... was there none in the review then?

I'm openly questioning the validity of that statement. I'm not questioning listening positions or repeatability.
post #341 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I didn't say anything about the "transferable" portions of the review either. I commented on this (Let's try the entire quote):

So, I guess the part you have the issue with is this:

Quote:


...just not in the context of this exercise.

OK, let's examine that. The guys placed the subs in one spot. They then listened in another spot. They posted their listening impressions. Fine so far.

But then they went on to say "Who should buy this sub?" And based on their non-transferable listening impressions, they gave advice about who should buy which subs. Since what they heard in their room, at their listening position is not likely to be what someone else would hear in another room and listening position, is it appropriate for them to give this kind of advice? Is it appropriate for other, less knowledgeable readers to take it?

Listen, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the reviews. The guys are to be commended for their efforts, which were considerable. And I'm not trying to rain on their parade. They are entitled to express what they heard and what they liked and disliked about the contenders. Bosso was just trying to lend some "context" to how these reviews should be interpreted.

And now, I must say, I can't believe I'm actually having a conversation with someone who's screen name is "JackOften". How do you expect to be taken seriously?

Craig
post #342 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

So, I guess the part you have the issue with is this:



OK, let's examine that. The guys placed the subs in one spot. They then listened in another spot. They posted their listening impressions. Fine so far.

But then they went on to say "Who should buy this sub?" And based on their non-transferable listening impressions, they gave advice about who should buy which subs. Since what they heard in their room, at their listening position is not likely to be what someone else would hear in another room and listening position, is it appropriate for them to give this kind of advice? Is it appropriate for other, less knowledgeable readers to take it?

Listen, I thoroughly enjoyed reading the reviews. The guys are to be commended for their efforts, which were considerable. And I'm not trying to rain on their parade. They are entitled to express what they heard and what they liked and disliked about the contenders. Bosso was just trying to lend some "context" to how these reviews should be interpreted.

And now, I must say, I can't believe I'm actually having a conversation with someone who's screen name is "JackOften". How do you expect to be taken seriously?

Craig

The handle issue is understandable...haha.

*In my opinion*, these comments...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bossobass View Post

The price of the subs and time spent designing, purchasing the parts, building, testing and posting, though it exceeds this shootout buy magnitudes, was just a part of my hobby, but I appreciate the suggestion that I do more for you.

... don't say 'Bosso was just trying to lend some "context" to how these reviews should be interpreted.' These comments are out to discredit the review in it's entirety (belittle at the minimum), especially the "just not in the context of this exercise" portion.

The Bossobass apologists in this thread are quick to jump on me for questioning that the first statement, as you yourself have said the review has plenty of merit (though not all) which is a far cry from "I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.", the exercise being a non-professional subjective review. I'm not sure why they feel the need to answer for him, nor do I understand the "he's beyond reproach" attitude they exhude...
post #343 of 1241
post #344 of 1241
Its there any guide on how to do subwoofer testing? outdoors, in room, etc? What to measure?, how?, affordable equipment to use?, etc... I mean, a guide that mortals can use.

I know REW includes a guide on how to use the program / software. But I think that a guide you can easily use to do your own testing just to see if your sub is good (sound quality as well as SPL), or just to verify if a new one is better (not that it just sound louder) will be very useful for even our own, not so pro, but useful, testings.
post #345 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

The handle issue is understandable...haha.

*In my opinion*, these comments...

... don't say 'Bosso was just trying to lend some "context" to how these reviews should be interpreted.' These comments are out to discredit the review in it's entirety (belittle at the minimum), especially the "just not in the context of this exercise" portion.

The Bossobass apologists in this thread are quick to jump on me for questioning that the first statement, as you yourself have said the review has plenty of merit (though not all) which is a far cry from "I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.", the exercise being a non-professional subjective review. I'm not sure why they feel the need to answer for him, nor do I understand the "he's beyond reproach" attitude they exhude...

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. However, let's not take the single line out of context and ensure we are including the next comment...

Quote:


I do indeed believe that the guys who did the shootout are very capable of offering useful subjective comments, just not in the context of this exercise.

Unless pains are taken to flatten the FR at the LP (and against a wall is normally not a preferred LP for that to happen), SQ differences that exist in the subs will be absolutely swamped by frequency response non-linearity, making subjective comments all but impossible, regardless of who the listener may be.

So, to paraphrase, the fact that the subs are "swamped by frequency response non-linearity" (i.e., the frequency responses are vastly different as it appears are the levels), subjective comments given the context (i.e., that the frequency responses are vastly different) are meaningless and impossible, because what the individuals are making subjective comments about is how the room and sub setup is impacting what they are hearing. Not how the subwoofer themselves differ in SQ. Or, we can just focus on the first part of the above quote, and ignore the context. Personally, I don't see this as belittling or offensive, at least when you read both sentences together.

At least, that is how I and some others read it. Others clearly have issue with the tone/style of posting.
post #346 of 1241
As to arguments about "the vast majority of buyers plugging it in, running Audyssey and that's it", while I agree that is likely the case for 99% of buyers, I would hope that isn't the case for members here at AVS, in particular members visiting the subwoofer forum and spending upwards of $500 to several thousands (or in this case, approx. $1,000) on a speaker and/or researching a subwoofer purchase. Usually that may be the case at the beginning, but then you have users starting to post "why am I not hearing/feeling the bass", leading to "can you post a frequency response", which leads to "how do I do that", which leads to "start with a rat shack meter, a CD of tones, and a spreadsheet" ... and on and on.

However, as most probably saw in the VTF-15 thread and AH thread recently, there are many users who simply want others (manufacturers, or other purchasers of a sub) to tell them their subs sound great and/or hit 120 db at 20hz. Then if someone disputes that fact, they become exceedingly defensive, which ultimately ends up with individuals insulting each other, instead of being focused on understanding why the differences exist or why a sub acts differently in-room vs outdoors.

VTF-15H (the user that is) is a great example of someone who is now trying to understand why his new sub isn't performing as well as his old sub or as well as others said the sub would perform in his room, and is now investing time in understanding the frequency response of his sub in his room and what he can do to better it before he decides to return the sub because his old VTF3.3 seems to give him more "oomph".
post #347 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm10 View Post

Its there any guide on how to do subwoofer testing? outdoors, in room, etc? What to measure?, how?, affordable equipment to use?, etc... I mean, a guide that mortals can use.

I know REW includes a guide on how to use the program / software. But I think that a guide you can easily use to do your own testing just to see if your sub is good (sound quality as well as SPL), or just to verify if a new one is better (not that it just sound louder) will be very useful for even our own, not so pro, but useful, testings.

Read up on the threads in here as they are an invaluable source of knowledge ..

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ests-archived/

In particular, "Subwoofer tests explained" is a great read. Albeit somewhat technical. I'd also read the shootout threads as they go into the differences amongst subs and what the measurements mean. Note, this is a LOT of reading. Just a warning.

As for a guide for verifying a new subwoofer is "better than an old one". I can't think of one off hand.
post #348 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. However, let's not take the single line out of context and ensure we are including the next comment...



So, to paraphrase, the fact that the subs are "swamped by frequency response non-linearity" (i.e., the frequency responses are vastly different as it appears are the levels), subjective comments given the context (i.e., that the frequency responses are vastly different) are meaningless and impossible, because what the individuals are making subjective comments about is how the room and sub setup is impacting what they are hearing. Not how the subwoofer themselves differ in SQ. Or, we can just focus on the first part of the above quote, and ignore the context. Personally, I don't see this as belittling or offensive, at least when you read both sentences together.

At least, that is how I and some others read it. Others clearly have issue with the tone/style of posting.

I don't see it as ignoring the context, it's in a paragraph unto itself. It's not conjoined with the sentences below it.

At some point the "Bosso Apologists" need to stop speaking/making excuses/loosely interpreting his meaning. Throw in his "... (my work) exceeds this shootout buy magnitudes..." which is clearly both boasting and belittlement- the original intent IMO leans more towards discrediting the review. Agreed that we both don't have clairification - but Bossobass' demeaner in posts, especially towards the less knowledgable shows a more arrogant tinge which can easily be described as condescending.
post #349 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

I don't see it as ignoring the context, it's in a paragraph unto itself. It's not conjoined with the sentences below it.

Wow. Okay.
post #350 of 1241
On a brighter note...I've already found some pretty sweet background tracks for the next shootout (or review).
post #351 of 1241
Can someone change the title of this thread to Damned If You Do And Damned If You Don't?
post #352 of 1241


Both sides of this argument are valid. People who are highly technical minded are often less socially aware of what they say even when they try. Not that I understand fully the boss's points, (I wish I could) but it appears as though he's right technically.

On the other hand, since most wives aren't going to be happy watching "There with you" in an anechoic chamber or a parking lot outside, so our theaters match the tests, it doesn't sound like there's a way to determine if one sub will sound better than another in our rooms unless we audition for ourselves.

So now I can thank the guys even more for showing me how important everything else is to make the only informed, intelligent decision. I already know they are pretty much top five in their categories by the number of happy users. So since they'll all sound the same to daft ol' me and my 90%ers:

I don't want one that stops working
I don't want one children can lose an eye on if they trip near or looks like a shoe shiners footstool
I don't want one too expensive
And I don't want one too gargantuan


So I might as well get the one that looks perdy. Twins even.
Thanks all for the help.
post #353 of 1241
And can someone tell me how to add an image? I copied and pasted the assumed link for a hot referee blowing her whistle and got that instead.
post #354 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by oddiodog View Post




I don't want one that stops working
I don't want one children can lose an eye on if they trip near or looks like a shoe shiners footstool
I don't want one too expensive
And I don't want one too gargantuan

Let me guess:

1. Ed
2. CHT
3. Rythmik
4. Hsu

I'd guess you like the Empire?
post #355 of 1241
R u seriuos jackoften...its quite comical reading your replies cause you really are beating a dead horse and your argument in wording really has no merit...sorry. I guess your coming to the aide of the reviewers...he is certainly not knocking the review, just pointing out some very valid points...get over it.
post #356 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post
At some point the "Bosso Apologists" need to stop speaking/making excuses/loosely interpreting his meaning. Throw in his "... (my work) exceeds this shootout buy magnitudes..." which is clearly both boasting and belittlement- the original intent IMO leans more towards discrediting the review. Agreed that we both don't have clairification - but Bossobass' demeaner in posts, especially towards the less knowledgable shows a more arrogant tinge which can easily be described as condescending.
TBH, it occurs to me that if bosso's statement was CLEARLY boasting and belittlement, everybody would see it that way. Many of us see it differently. Maybe a touch boastful, but not belitttling. I'm pretty sure I grok English adequately that I'm not missing something that's clear.
post #357 of 1241
No matter if you find faults with the shootout or not, the OPs should be thanked for the time and effort they put into this. As long as everything remains mostly civil, it is a great learning experience for all those involved. I'm sure they learned a lot during the testing process itself and during the writeup. This thread can be a great resource to learn something about how to gauge a subs performance and how to interpret different measurements and how they relate to real world performance. Who knows, maybe the OPs will make some change for their next shootout based on something in this thread.

Personally, I think their presentation was great and better then most other reviews out there, amateur and professional. They obviously put a lot of thought and time into it. People just need to take the entire shootout for what it is. The videos and side by side pictures are something not found anywhere else.

Just a few suggestions for the next round. Getting a measurement rig can only help any review and can help to setup your personal system. If you are not interested in buying a rig, reach out to the community here. There maybe someone here willing to lend you a hand on the next shootout and bring along a rig. Depending on where you are in PA, that someone could be me. I have an REW setup with a calibrated mic and I could bring along a sub or two.

Again, I thank you for this effort and try not to take any criticisms in this thread personally.

-mike
post #358 of 1241
well it sure is purdy.

As an honest point of fact, I'll be going to LA at the end of this month, and I've set aside a morning and set-up an appointment at HSU. Going to compare some duals of their VTF 15, HLS 15, and a mid-base module to feel out adding that to my PB as an option as well.

Won't they be surprised when I tell them I only want to look at them.

Wish I was on my to Woodstock Illinois after that.
post #359 of 1241
JackOften, dont worry about it buddy, i do understand what you are saying but i do understand the other guys also, so it's really a moot point.

BTW, how is the dual drive doing? Still bringing to your face?
post #360 of 1241
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post
Wow. Okay.
I guess we can both speculate to the meaning, but why don't you talk your buddy into answering the critcism? That's an absolute. We both know he won't though... Right?

I'd also love to speculate with you on why he doesn't answer, and why his posts are often condesending, but that would belong in a "Behavioral Science Forum" and not a "A/V Science Forum"
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450