SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 16

Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu

Cacimar, we haven't checked the amp yet, so we really can't say that at the moment.

Sincerely,

Originally Posted by cacihome

I know, I'm just playing with MK's head.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

I agree, but only to a point. Unlike speakers, subs often cannot be adequately evaluated by ear alone. What I mean is that when you are looking at 1K plus for a sub you're looking for performance above and beyond the norm, extended output at high spls, etc. Unless you have measurement equipment to verify this performance you need to rely on Pro reviews to determine if the sub in question will, indeed, deliver the goods. Spending $300 or more to test out a sub is only worth it if you have a reasonable chance of success!

Originally Posted by chashint

As far as I am concerned this is a very good shoot out conducted in the real world.
The real world data verifies the low end roll off AH measured at ground plane.
The people who have open floor plans (or have +5k^ft rooms) and want to get 20Hz performance really need to pay attention to what this shoot out (and the one AH is doing) is telling you about the subs being tested.

Without the ability to listen side by side for yourself to decide SQ preference FR and SPL graphs are all there is to go on along with the subjective SQ comments of the people who are testing the subs.
I have no problem with subjective SQ descriptions when listening to subs back to back to back.
In the context of comparing subs in the real world this is about as good as it gets unless you want to drag a bunch of them into your own home and do this exercise for yourself.

If I were to be so rude as to ask for anything else to be added it would be for the brothers to do their own ground plane measurements.
While I have no issues whatsoever with the in room FR graphs it does seem like a number of people do.
I fully understand why a couple of guys doing something for the fun of it would choose not to do that since that would add 50+% more time to the effort.

Originally Posted by gpmbc

A good sub should merely anchor the bottom end and get out of the way. If you're playing a recording and somethin sticks out of place or detracts from the performance you can hear it. Play a recording with 2 speakers high passed at say 80hz then add in the sub. It should sound more full and detailed not detract from your enjoyment. If it's annoying then either the level is set to high in relation to the mains, or it's poorly designed with bad transient response, and/or it's interacting with the room and giving some peaks or nulls. You should be able to tell with your ears in your room if you like it or not. As for high spls just get an spl meter. If not that then level match the subs to your mains and play a demanding scene a few clicks down from reference. If it bottoms out or starts to sound muddy or loses composure, then probably not so great on the dynamic stuff or at least restricted to certain frequencies (ie needs high pass filter). I have formidable subs, which keep up with my mains and can go louder than my ears can take. No pro review necessary to tell me that.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

Wow, someone who actually is listening to two channel music! I thought you all were gone...! Seriously, I'm referring to HT, and I haven't listened to two channel music in years. Time marches on, stereo can't hold a candle to multi-channel music, and home theater is an entirely different ballgame! Subs do not "get out of the way", on the contrary, subs are the anchor to a quality home theater experience. My 4 subs shake my HT to the rafters, and I still want more! If all you want is something to fill in the bottom for music any number of subs will do, if you're looking for reference level playback for the latest movies you need something a bit more potent.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

Wow, someone who actually is listening to two channel music! I thought you all were gone...! Seriously, I'm referring to HT, and I haven't listened to two channel music in years. Time marches on, stereo can't hold a candle to multi-channel music, and home theater is an entirely different ballgame! Subs do not "get out of the way", on the contrary, subs are the anchor to a quality home theater experience. My 4 subs shake my HT to the rafters, and I still want more! If all you want is something to fill in the bottom for music any number of subs will do, if you're looking for reference level playback for the latest movies you need something a bit more potent.

Originally Posted by gpmbc

I was just giving an example regarding the stereo format. However, on my theater system I don't listen to DVD A or SACD and only once in awhile all channel stereo. So yes for music playback it's the old 2 channel dinosaur. I disagree that any number of subs will do for music, that to me is a lot more critical. For music there is a point for reference for what live instrumentation sounds like as well as the human voice. For movies most of the sound is manufactured so get adequate cone area, sufficient power, and have most of the bandwith covered and you should be good on the boom, boom, pow and foot stomps in movies. For the record I love a surplus of bass too. Gotta couple of DTS 10s, a Captivator and a couple of 15s on midbass duty so no shortage here. BTW how did you know your subs were shaking the rafters without a pro audio reviewer to validate that?

Originally Posted by chashint

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Originally Posted by chashint

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

I could have been satisfied many moons ago if I didn't chase reference level quality in my HT. Consider yourself lucky if you are happy without going through the effort, it is an addiction!

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

I could have been satisfied many moons ago if I didn't chase reference level quality in my HT. Consider yourself lucky if you are happy without going through the effort, it is an addiction!

Originally Posted by chashint

meh... fewer people listen at reference than this forum would lead you to believe and a properly gain / level matched system sounds better to me than one that has the bass all jacked up.

Originally Posted by Madaeel

We do NOT intend our shootout to be a final word in determining a king of $1000 Internet Direct (ID) subs. We approached our shootout from a totally different perspective than has been normal for these things. We feel it's something a lot of you have been wanting from a review or shootout. So here it is:

Originally Posted by cschang

Are you talking a balance system at reference, or jacked up bass?

"Reference Level" is meant for the recording/production standpoint, so that all systems in the recording/production chain are calibrated to a standard. It is not meant as a listening reference. This is something that is ALWAYS forgotten.

That isn't to say that you are wrong for wanting to listen to your material that loudly, but it is to say that listening that loudly is not a "reference" point. If you want to listen at the level the movie was intended or recorded, then you need to know the dialnorm value that was used for that movie. The idea is to listen at a level that you are comfortable with, not the loudest level you are comfortable with.

Anyways, there are other threads about this.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

What I mean by reference level is this http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-tech...ference-level/

Now that I've upgraded my speakers to Klipsch THX KL-650s I'm finally able to reach levels that never sounded as good previously! Part of this desire has to do with use, those interested in music only or those whose theaters are TV based may not need or want this capability. Projector based systems really demonstrate the need for audio to match the much larger video. While you don't need reference level to enjoy movies, once you can do so it gets addicting. I don't watch TV with my projector, that's done in another room and there I never listen at anywhere close to reference. I'm now wondering if I need to upgrade my bass to the next level, which is why I've been following this thread.

Originally Posted by MKtheater

I am with you on this one. I went to a THX certified cinema and the sound was awesome, it was very loud and clear, I was addicted and have not looked back.

Originally Posted by MKtheater

I am with you on this one. I went to a THX certified cinema and the sound was awesome, it was very loud and clear, I was addicted and have not looked back.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

Yours is one of the theaters that got me interested in upgrading! I just wish I had the room you do, but so far I'm really happy with my choices. Now I have to address the bass, but there's no way for me to squeeze in your type of subwooferage!

Originally Posted by dpc716

...The original post and ensuing comments have done a lot to add to the knowledge base of readers here I think...

Originally Posted by MKtheater

Klipsch THX ultra 2's do an excellent job of creating that cinema experience. Not much better for the price IMHO(used). My JBL's are the real deal and just makes things bigger and clearer, etc... All the speakers I have owned were more of a lateral move to the Klipsch until I went pro cinema.

Originally Posted by MKtheater

Klipsch THX ultra 2's do an excellent job of creating that cinema experience. Not much better for the price IMHO(used). My JBL's are the real deal and just makes things bigger and clearer, etc... All the speakers I have owned were more of a lateral move to the Klipsch until I went pro cinema.

Originally Posted by floridapoolboy

I was looking at the JBL 3677 before I lucked out with the used KL-650s. The 3677 is really the only pro cinema speaker that would fit in my converted living room HT! As far as subs, I'm still unsure what to do. The Klipsch THX subs list specs of 130db at 30hz, 122db at 20hz, and 112db at 15hz. I know that there are plenty of ID subs that can do this, so I won't be looking for Klipsch, too expensive. My Outlaws, good as they are, can't match those specs, so I'm on the lookout. What would you recommend, given that I can't hide my subs and they need at least some WAF? (no DTS-10!)

Originally Posted by bsoko2

My Quad Empires in my living room HT with over 6000+ cu ft open to other parts of the house is more then enough for anyone.