SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 - Page 4

torn between fv15hp ( a potential of "best of both worlds" in HT fun and SQ music) or a vtf 15.

my max price is $1500 for pretty much everything including taxes and since i live in canada, well shipping cost aint no fun.

a vtf 15h ~ $1100
a FV15HP ~ $1600

So given a rough 4 to 5 hundred dollars difference would it really be worth it, yay or nay.

Twin A7S-450s $1600!

Similar designs when driven with in their limits should really closely match each other in terms of in room FR measurements. The ported designs have a F3 much lower then sealed designs but sealed designs having a natural downward slope will overtake the Ported designs below the tuning point. Sealed designs also should have naturally more output in the 40Hz and beyond region.

Conclusion, in a room when driving subs to average levels should produce the same response curves. Honestly the simplistic FR plot does not tells us much about the designs. Harmonic Distortion, Decay, etc would be much more interesting in terms of difference.

forgot to say i live in a rental apartment and dont wish to pay for the broken glass that would result from that much power hahaha

also room is constrained in a living room of that type since its not a HT dedicated room. Till i move into a house, which god knows when it'll be, im stuck with a medium sized open living room.

Maybe the Empire would be better, smaller form and no vibration since the dual drivers cancel out box resonances.

Actually, dual opposed does not cancel out resonances, it cancels the forces caused by cone movement(cones moving in the opposite direction). Any vibrations/resonance(caused by sound) or mechanical "noise" will still be there.

OK, what he said! Maybe the Empire would be better.......(see above!)

Epik doesn't ship to Canada. Unless, they recently had a change in policy that I'm not aware of.

Oops, I posted to fast about saying amazing job with measurements.

DISCLAIMER. RadioShack meters SHOULD NEVER be used for critical measurements in any system, especially in shootouts. They are notorously inaccurate down low. I guess I missed that they are used here.

$100 should have been spent on a calibrated mic and sound card with REW.

Sorry if that sounds negative but everyone should be aware of possible flaws. Its still an amazing write up but the measurements could have many inaccuracies.

Great review guys now you need to play those demo material with all 5 subs going!!!!!!!

These were comparative tests not absolutes. Each unit was measured in the same way with the same equipment and the same test input. While the results don't give absolutes they sure do give great comparative results.

A way better read than the "paid" job over at AH. Certainly more real world type stuff.
I'd like to join the rest and say thanks!

Great job guys and thanks for you hard work.

I don't mean to cause disturbances by this. Whether my observation has merit or not, it appears to me if ones highest priority is overall value, but with most important emphasis on articulate sound quality without a couple of hundred dollars being too much concern or WAF, they seem to be in reverse preference.

A reason for not ranking them specifically, aside from class and appreciation to the manufacturers might be because they realize that their preferences are different than other peoples preferences and the weight they put on each. As well, used in another room being a different size or shape could easily change the order. Or if money or WAF or SPL or size was highest on the priority scale. Not to mention they realize they couldn't tune and fiddle with the absolute best sound match in their system for hours to see which fit their specific system the best.

It also makes me realize, as incredibly helpful as this review is, it hasn't helped me decide. I have a smaller room and want duals to get both extension, mid-base and smooth response to best my PB13 without losing or besting the SQ. I don't know if any of these as duals will do that as it's not compared to my PB. My point is, since my situation isn't exact, I won't know unless I try for myself.

So them ranking a preference and having people simply assume it's the best sub, would be unfair to these sub manufacturers who have great options and have been supportive in the review. As well as unfair to an individual who may buy that sub and find that it wasn't the best for their room or system.

But that does leave me with a question. I wonder if you guys found that any of the subs blended better than others with your system? And if so are your mains ported?

I too would have liked for them to use a calibrated mic and soundcard with REW, but you are correct. Since they were consistent with their measuring technique their graphs are good for comparative purposes.

Great job guys.

Wish something like this type of review was available a couple of years ago when I was researching subs. Of course most of the subs reviewed were not available at the time.

But you guys did an job.

Great to see all of the subs are good buys and all perform well enough to satisfy the majority of buyers!

Thanks guys for the work, awesome job.

Tanks for the shootout it was a great read. I'm am in the market for a sub and was leaning towards the HSU. The part about how you can feel the bass is right up my ally. Giving up some DBS is ok with me because let's face it the wife isn't going to let me play any sub full out anyways. A++ much better than the BS audioholics shootout.

Why did you guys not listen to a bigger variety of music to test the sound quality on music?

Thanks for your dedication to this project. As somewhat of a newbie to the world of subs you've helped me focus in on specific bench marks and make a short list.

In your "smaller" room, depending on the size of the room, the room gain you get below 25hz and your listening levels, the amount of extension and SPL you're getting below 25hz from your PB13 may not be missed with duals of these subs (the PB13 will still outgun duals of any of the above mentioned subs though - I believe this is the case whether you use HSU's CEA2010 numbers or AH's for that matter after adjusting for continuous vs burst measurements).

As for mid-bass, yes, you should be able to get "higher" mid-bass from any of the aforementioned subs.

As for SQ ... good luck figuring that one out.

Adam/Ethan, can you clarify something ....



Just so I understand, for each sub you ran a test tone at each of the above noted frequencies to chart this at -15db?

Also, you mention "level matching" the subs to the mains to ensure they were the same level. Just curious if you used the AVR pink noise, or a specific test tone?

Last question, how badly were your ears ringing after you finished!

Thanks for your thoughts. But SQ is the key for me. I'm not willing to trade it for other improvements. Just add to it, or improve overall.

Great job guys! Nice to see that there really isn't too much difference between all these subs. Take into account the room, sealed or ported subs and they all are a good buy for output and SQ. Quality of the build, sub finish and customer support are another matter. I know the my Quad Empires with the Anti Mode in a 6000+ cu ft open room is a keeper for me.

Bill

Just saying, short of having two different subs in your room and level matching them across a FR (no easy feat btw, trust me as I spent hours trying to do just that with my sealed boxes vs the PB13 I have and it wasn't easy), then playing the same material over and over again between the two, figuring out which "SQ" you like better won't be easy (well, save for a really crappy sub vs a really good sub).

I've listened to 5 or 6 different FR matched (as best we could) subs blind in an HT (the PB13, DD18, F113, EP600), and even then figuring out which one had the "best" SQ was difficult, and at times highly dependent upon the material. I.e., not just "HT vs Music" but different types of music.

Just found this thread. Great review. You guys deserve a major round of applause for your work on this. I think this will help lots of people.....or further confuse them.

Either way, very well done...we are all very impressed with your dedication.

I have run both the Hsu STF-2 and more recently the VTF-3.3 but I have been considering upgrading to the new one. When the upgraditis totally consumes me, I will certainly re-read this for opinions.

I hope everybody has a great Super Bowl Sunday.

I will be enjoying delicious brews from my new project....a 4 tap keezer (chest freezer conversion kegerator).

Awesome comparison! I couldn't help but wonder why SVS wasn't represented here. I guess because then it would be a masacre instead of a shootout?

SVS was too expensive, I think by the category they decided to go with.