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My Mahogany / Invisible Speaker build - Page 2

post #31 of 385
Spek-tack-you-lar stuff.

The use of the Transducers is what allows one to construct a room made virtually entirely of such beautiful Wood, without having to resort to absorptive Acoustic panels. The overall room design and construction has finally come together, and by my reasoning deserves all the accolades it can garner.

There is just one more thing however that remains to be addressed.......................................

Screenies...SCREENIEs...SCREENIES !!!!

The 3rd image is framed wonderfully for presenting such....and I'm bettin' you can still bump up the room lighting while doing so, eh?
post #32 of 385
Thread Starter 
Thanks, MM. We definitely enjoy the look of the room along with the sound, and your system was what enabled that combination.

Regarding screen shots, I can try to post some, but I've never been able to really capture it well. Someone once posted that sharing a screenshot is like calling someone up and having them listen to your high-end stereo system -- either the phone or the camera is going to limit the quality of what comes through. I guess I can sort of relate to that sentiment.

In any case, my next task is to calibrate the projector. It's still just out of the box and I'm sure I can improve on that.

Bryan
post #33 of 385
How big the is the overhang for the steps and platform that hides the rope light.
post #34 of 385
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRBoomer View Post

How big the is the overhang for the steps and platform that hides the rope light.

I went with 2 3/8" total overhang. That gives room for the rope light between the carpet behind it and a 3/4" by 1" lip of wood that I installed in front to hide the rope light. After easing the corners of the plywood with a 1/2" roundover bit, the carpet wraps down the front of the step and is stapled into the lip. The rope lights just snap into some plastic channel that I screwed to the bottom of the plywood.

Couple shots below -- sorry for the poor quality but hopefully they show what I did.

Here's a shot of the bottom of the plywood for the lower riser, ready to install:
lipdetail2.jpg

And here's the step detail, almost ready for carpet. (Note that the step, which was free-floating at the time, was turned backwards with the overhanging lip temporarily facing the back riser - otherwise, it would tend to tip forward until I permanently installed it.)
stepdetail.jpg

Bryan
post #35 of 385
Thread Starter 
Well, I'm going to dust off this build as I start the 2nd phase of the project, which will be to build a bar in the area just outside the HT. I have a space about 14' x 14' to play with, and in that I'd like to build a useable and comfortable bar area.

Features:
- 42" display over the bar that can show the same or different content versus what's playing inside the HT
- Smaller display, mounted vertically, near the HT entrance for the "now playing" content (essentially a dynamic movie poster)
- Kegs on tap
- Single drawer dishwasher
- 18" built-in icemaker
- Undercounter refer for garnishes, bottled beer, etc.
- Integrated 42U rack for current and future IT needs

I'm planning to build it myself, as I did the HT, out of mahogany and ideally it will all look like it was planned together with the HT, once completed.

At this point, I'm very interested in feedback and suggestions... All are welcome, but I'd particularly like to hear from those who have a bar near the HT and thus have experience in what works and what doesn't.

With that, here are some shots of the actual space and some shots of the 3D model I've been playing with in Sketchup.

First, the space looking directly into the corner:


And a similar view of the model:



Looking at the 2nd corner, you can see the entrance to the HT on the left:


And the similar view of the model:


A few more shots of the model....

Here's a "plan" view from directly above. You can see the stairs coming down on the right and the HT entrance on the left. I'm hoping that angling the bar at a 45 helps to fit into that area without blocking access into and out of the HT:



This is looking down and into the bar area. From left to right along the back wall, you can see a sink, the icemaker, the rack space, and finally the small refer underneath a built-in coffee maker. Also, you will notice that I'm playing around with the type of faucet tower to go with.



This is from inside the bar, looking back at the rest of the room. There are three counter heights here: The bar itself is 42"; the white counter on the left is lowered to 30" -- I was thinking this to serve as the main work area for mixing drinks -- and the white counter on the right is the standard 36" height. You can see a single-drawer dishwasher under the work area. To the right of that are side-by-side 24" refers that I plan to convert into kegerators. And I should add that while the bar surface is shown as wood, it's actually going to be granite with the molded wooden front "armrest" area:



Finally, the view from inside the HT, looking out at the bar:



That's where things stand today -- all plans and no action. Actually, we are going to be starting this project soon by tearing up all the carpet in that area and having the concrete floors stained and finished. So while we're waiting for that to happen, please fire away with your comments. Have I left enough space to move around? Are any areas inside the bar too tight? Are the counter heights reasonable? Can I pour a beer from the HT side without having to walk all the way around? Etc....

Thanks,
Bryan
post #36 of 385
"and finally the small refer". You know your in California when you have refer in your theater. :-)
My only thought is the bar itself seems very close to the actual entrance. Other wise truly envious of your possible bar space.
post #37 of 385
I don't often give complements on theaters but just so happened to be looking up theaters that have utilized the 'Invisible Speaker' transducer plan and stumbled upon yours. It shows that you executed that idea incredibly well. Great job on that! As far as performance goes, are you able to take the transducers to reference levels or thereabouts? Furthermore, how did you handle the low frequencies for this application? I can't imagine the transducers themselves would extend too far down the lowest octaves but from your experience, how would you say they perform in terms of bass reproduction? I am interested in doing a project with sound transducers myself and have done some research but haven't quite heard specific feedback on how they perform. Thanks!
post #38 of 385
nice!
post #39 of 385
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Driver_King View Post

I don't often give complements on theaters but just so happened to be looking up theaters that have utilized the 'Invisible Speaker' transducer plan and stumbled upon yours. It shows that you executed that idea incredibly well. Great job on that! As far as performance goes, are you able to take the transducers to reference levels or thereabouts? Furthermore, how did you handle the low frequencies for this application? I can't imagine the transducers themselves would extend too far down the lowest octaves but from your experience, how would you say they perform in terms of bass reproduction? I am interested in doing a project with sound transducers myself and have done some research but haven't quite heard specific feedback on how they perform. Thanks!

Thanks, Driver_King. I'm happy with the sound of the system, but as is often the case, I don't know what I'm potentially missing as I have nothing to compare it to. I would offer that this transducer-based system is more about the final look of the room and less about audiophile-type sound. I can get it plenty loud, but I wouldn't say I can take it to reference levels. I don't need or want a room where I can put that much sound power into the air, so it works for me.

I'd add that this application is probably at the high-end of what you can do with a single receiver/amplifier. I'm using an Onkyo TX-NR5008, 9.1 channels, rated at 145W / channel, and it works very hard during a loud performance. If you haven't already, check out RedTopDown's installation and note the 9 or so external 2000W amps that he's using.

For bass, I have two Hsu STF-1 subs, one at each front corner. We also wired the room to be able to add two more subs in the rear corners, though I haven't felt the need to add those yet.


I don't feel like I'm lacking frequencies at either the high or low end.

Hope that helps,
Bryan
post #40 of 385
Thread Starter 
Update: My son-in-law and I were able (barely) to muscle out the carpet on Sunday, getting the room ready for the concrete finishing guy. If you've had the joy of moving 50 yards of carpet before, you'll appreciate how heavy that huge roll is! smile.gif

Here's how the bar area looks after two days of surface grinding the slab. It's a very loud and very dusty process...



Overall, the slab seems to be in good condition, though there's one significant crack. He doesn't seem too concerned about it, though.



When we poured this slab, we first installed PT 2x material around the perimeter -- this was both to insulate the slab (radiant heat tubing) and to provide a place for the carpet guys to nail their tack strips.

Now, however, this wood is not desirable for a finished concrete floor, so Monday evening I spent sawing and chiseling out the top 1/2" or so of the wood. Today he'll install a skim / float coat of special concrete that will fill the void on top of the wood and bridge between the two sides of the gap. I think there's a chance of hairline cracks developing along this joint, but for the most part it's around the perimeter. Only where the bottom of the stairs leads out into the room does it cross, as shown above. Worst case, I figure we can put a rug down...

Finally, here's a shot from inside the HT, all taped up. As you can see by the "floaties" caught by the flash, it's a dusty process, even with all this plastic.
post #41 of 385
Thread Starter 
While the floor guys continue on the stained concrete floors, I want to start getting some of my appliances ordered. One of the challenges that I've been trying to solve is what to do with the kegerator setup. My goals:

- Utilize two 24" undercounter refers / kegerators set side-by-side
- Each can hold up to a half-barrel (full-sized) keg, or a couple 5 gallon home-brew kegs
- Some way to keep the beer cold all the way up to the faucets

It doesn't appear that there are many small refers that can handle a half-barrel keg, but the Marvel 61HK appears to be one of them. These come with a single tap tower that's normally installed directly on top of the kegerator, but I want to remove that and replace it with some piping to a remote tower that sits on top of the granite bar top. Since that granite is 42" high, that should leave me 6-8" between the granite and the tops of the kegerators in which to run the beer lines, perhaps inside some 3" PVC with expanded foam insulation around them.

Since pictures are worth a thousand words...

Here's a reminder of the setup. In addition to the side-by-side kegerators, I also want a matching refer for bottled beer, garnishes, etc.



From the other side of the bar, this shows the two kegerators and the remote CO2 bottle.



And here's one with some of the cabinetry stripped away, showing the idea of the insulated pipes between the kegerators, utilizing the hole in the top of each of them (where the normal tap tower would have been mounted):


What do you guys think? Has anyone done anything like this? How about keeping the lines cool -- either air-cooled or liquid-cooled?

Thanks for any and all ideas...
post #42 of 385
Thread Starter 
Update: The concrete floor work is done and I must say I'm pleased with how it turned out. It's a mottled effect with various shades of browns, from dark to light.

Going back a few days, here the installer is floating about 1/4" of engineered concrete on top of the existing slab:



The floated floor.



And the finished floor:


Unfortunately, it's not easy to capture the look well with my camera so until I get some better lighting going in the area, I'll just have to ask you to trust me that it looks better than in these pictures.


To make the transition into the existing HT, I milled down a piece of Mahogany to about 3/8" thick, with a taper along the front. This got epoxied down to the concrete floor, and then the carpet guy epoxied a tack strip just behind that. Now he just needs to wait a day for that to set before he comes back to stretch the carpet out and finish it along the new threshold piece.


To finish this out, I'll eventually run some toe-molding around the perimeter of the room to cover the gap under the existing base molding, but that will be done after the new bar cabinetry gets installed.
post #43 of 385
Wow. Love the texture and coloring of the concrete floor. Looks phenomenal.
post #44 of 385
+1 Everything looks great!
post #45 of 385
how much time to you have into learning how to render or use google sketchup ??? Do you have some profession where your affluent with it ?? Or did you just put the time into it ?
post #46 of 385
Thread Starter 
Thanks all!

Mfusick, I probably invested ~5 hours in watching the various intro and medium-level Sketchup tutorials and playing around with it (including a few fails in there) before I was able to feel confident enough to start building the model. I don't do this for a living, and while I've used some 2D CAD programs a fair bit, I wouldn't say that's a requirement for using Sketchup -- it's a very different approach to drawing / creating things. You might be amazed at how much you accomplish by simply drawing a rectangle and then extruding it out a distance (the Pull command)... every cabinet I drew is just a series of these operations, defining one piece of wood at a time. Of course there are shortcuts, too, including being able to import library elements, for things like the refers and the beer tap tower. Hope that helps!
post #47 of 385
Thread Starter 
One of the things I want to do before I can finalize the plans is to figure out what style and sizes of frame/panels I'm going to use for doors and for various parts of the cabinets. I just purchased a 3-piece router bit set for making these, and wanted to start by trying it out on some pine.

Here are the various pieces, including a small glue-up for the panel:



Following the instructions that come with the bit set, the process starts with installing the "stile" bit in the router table and zeroing out the fence so it's inline with the router bit:



Running the inside edge of all four pieces yields this:



Then, with the "coping" bit installed, you mill the ends of the two rails so they fit into the vertical stiles:

As you can see, the height of the bit wasn't quite right, but by measuring the error and then raising the bit by that amount, I was able to dial that in.


Finally, I ended up with a decent frame:



On to the panel -- here it is after a couple passes with the panel raising bit:



I kept raising the bit by ~1/8" or so, then making a pass around all 4 sides, until I got to the final height. Again, by measure the thickness of the edge and figuring out what more needed to be removed to fit into the 1/4" slot, it wasn't hard to get the panel the right thickness:



And finally, the prototype door milled up and dry fit together. Considering I didn't spend any time milling this stock or ensuring it was all the exact same thickness, it turned out pretty well, I think.


I think the design is okay, but I'm toying around with what I can do to kick this up a notch, specifically with some applied molding around the inside of the flat part of the frame. I'll see what's available in some new router bits and see what I can come up with, and if anyone has any ideas, please send them my way...
post #48 of 385
I was tooling through AVS while having my morning coffee and came across your thread again. You were soliciting feedback on your bar design....I think overall the bar design looks very good and make a lot of sense. But there is a change I would definitely make to the design, and that is flip-flopping the dishwasher and the ice maker. It just seems far more natural for the dishwasher to be closer to the sink and the ice maker to be closer to the drink preparation area.

I would also suggest going with a dual drawer dishwasher (preferred) or a full-size dishwasher instead of the single-drawer. I have a single drawer and can tell you it runs out of space in a hurry. The storage space you gain underneath the dishwasher is not that great because you can only store low-profile items and it is storage space that is not needed when you have plenty of other storage space. You are also complicating your cabinetry build with the single drawer unit as opposed to leaving an open gap. So you end up spending more time, money and effort on building out a special cabinet to hold a single drawer dishwasher, plus the reduced amount of wash room for no benefit whatsoever. It's the one thing I would change if I had to go back and redo my purchases again.

And I have to ask....do you have parties that huge where you need two 1/2 barrels of beer on-tap? You can get a nice dual tap kegerator that is a single 24" width that will hold two slimline 1/4 kegs. Given how quickly the beer can turn "bad" if it's not used, the double-width kegerator seems a bit much in a residential setting unless you are really, really focused on drinking a lot of beer or regularly have large parties where everyone drinks beer.

Just my thoughts and nothing more.
post #49 of 385
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments and suggestions, TMcG! I just checked out your build and, given the thought and effort you're putting in there, plus your real-world living with these choices, I certainly value your inputs.

A couple thoughts back...

I like the idea of ice being closer to the work area, and I will play around a bit to see if I can make that work. My thought has been to make that working counter lower (30") which easily accommodated a single drawer dishwasher, but it has been bugging me that the dishwasher should probably be closer to the sink, so I will look at that. My wife would love to donate our full-sized Bosch dishwasher from her kitchen to my bar, and that would buy me some points if I could make that work. One thing I don't want is to allow a full-sized dishwasher door to interfere too much in moving around the bar, particularly where it gets tight back there by the sink.

The ice maker will require a full 36" counter height, so I'll have to see how that would fit near the work area, but I also probably don't need that full 5' of working space to mix drinks. I also want a "passive" drain on the ice maker (vs a pump), so closer to the sink / rear wall will be preferable for that.

On the kegerators, I wanted to have the ability to have at least one full-size keg (half barrel) or quarter barrel (same diameter), and most refers and kegerators I looked at didn't seem to be able to accommodate that large of a diameter (there is usually a "bump" in the bottom rear of the refer that gets in the way). The Marvels I've now ordered seem to be one of the few that do, and while I agree that I probably don't need more than one keg that size on tap, I wanted them to match so ended up with two. I think that mostly I'll be running a couple home brew (5 gal) kegs in there at once, but when we throw a big party (which we do a couple times a year), I figured I'd rather have too much keg capacity vs. too little.

I'll continue to play with the design and post some more thoughts here.

BTW, I'm going with African Mahogany, too. smile.gif
post #50 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger View Post

One thing I don't want is to allow a full-sized dishwasher door to interfere too much in moving around the bar, particularly where it gets tight back there by the sink.


On the kegerators, I wanted to have the ability to have at least one full-size keg (half barrel) or quarter barrel (same diameter), and most refers and kegerators I looked at didn't seem to be able to accommodate that large of a diameter (there is usually a "bump" in the bottom rear of the refer that gets in the way). The Marvels I've now ordered seem to be one of the few that do, and while I agree that I probably don't need more than one keg that size on tap, I wanted them to match so ended up with two. I think that mostly I'll be running a couple home brew (5 gal) kegs in there at once, but when we throw a big party (which we do a couple times a year), I figured I'd rather have too much keg capacity vs. too little.

With a single drawer dishwasher at full extension, it's really no different (space-wise) than a traditional dishwasher front flipped down. If a person is working at the sink, there's not going to be room to move around anyhow. So from a work-flow issue I don't think it will be a problem because the cleanup only generally happens once at the end of the night anyhow.

I'm very jealous for your Marvel units. This is the dual tap system I purchased which can hold a 1/2 barrel or two quarters: http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=SBC490BISSHVTWIN&gclid=CM26nb-y3rcCFeNj7AodeGAAcQ I took a bit of a different approach in that most of the time I'll have two of those 5 gallon kegs dispensing the beer since the clock is ticking once the kegs are tapped. But when I have a big party, I'll step up to a single 1/2 barrel. I figured if it's difficult for a bunch of my drunken fraternity brothers to make it through a 1/2 barrel during our college prime, it should be good for 30 and 40 somethings coming over for a good time. biggrin.gif

How are you finishing your African Mahogany? I am currently being swayed into a French Polish which would then be dulled down. VERY labor intensive but you can't beat the end result.
post #51 of 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowger View Post

Thanks all!

Mfusick, I probably invested ~5 hours in watching the various intro and medium-level Sketchup tutorials and playing around with it (including a few fails in there) before I was able to feel confident enough to start building the model. I don't do this for a living, and while I've used some 2D CAD programs a fair bit, I wouldn't say that's a requirement for using Sketchup -- it's a very different approach to drawing / creating things. You might be amazed at how much you accomplish by simply drawing a rectangle and then extruding it out a distance (the Pull command)... every cabinet I drew is just a series of these operations, defining one piece of wood at a time. Of course there are shortcuts, too, including being able to import library elements, for things like the refers and the beer tap tower. Hope that helps!

I use 3D drafting programs for a living, and I can't use Sketchup to save my life. It's like giving a BMX guy a Huffy from Walmart to use . . .

I am a beginner homebrewer and over on the Homebrewing forum guys have cooled their beer lines like you talk about. I know one guy over there did the liquid cooled option, but his lines were really long. It seemed like a LOT of work to me. I wouldn't think it'd be quite necessary for your case here. I like the idea of the PVC air chamber.
post #52 of 385
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

With a single drawer dishwasher at full extension, it's really no different (space-wise) than a traditional dishwasher front flipped down. If a person is working at the sink, there's not going to be room to move around anyhow. So from a work-flow issue I don't think it will be a problem because the cleanup only generally happens once at the end of the night anyhow.

I'm very jealous for your Marvel units. This is the dual tap system I purchased which can hold a 1/2 barrel or two quarters: http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=SBC490BISSHVTWIN&gclid=CM26nb-y3rcCFeNj7AodeGAAcQ I took a bit of a different approach in that most of the time I'll have two of those 5 gallon kegs dispensing the beer since the clock is ticking once the kegs are tapped. But when I have a big party, I'll step up to a single 1/2 barrel. I figured if it's difficult for a bunch of my drunken fraternity brothers to make it through a 1/2 barrel during our college prime, it should be good for 30 and 40 somethings coming over for a good time. biggrin.gif

How are you finishing your African Mahogany? I am currently being swayed into a French Polish which would then be dulled down. VERY labor intensive but you can't beat the end result.

Good point on the dishwashers, and those Summit kegerators are nice -- I debated between those and the Marvels.

I'll be finishing my Mahogany to match what's already been done for the adjacent HT. If you look back to post #29 on this thread, the bottom picture is probably the best one to show the finish. While I built it all, I didn't want to tackle the finish so I brought in a professional for that. I believe he used a series of gel stains to even out the various colors of the wood, sealing each section with shellac as he went, then put a satin poly on top of that. Not nearly the perfect finish that a French Polish would yield... we didn't attempt to fill the pores, for example.

FWIW, you're looking at both Mahogany and Sapele in that picture. I had to mix and match various species in the HT more than I would have liked, but unless you're really looking at the grain patterns, it all seemed to work okay in the HT. For the bar project, I was deciding between Honduran and African Mahogany, and given the similarities, went with the AM that's about half the price here locally.
Edited by cowger - 6/12/13 at 11:21am
post #53 of 385
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickTheGreat View Post

I use 3D drafting programs for a living, and I can't use Sketchup to save my life. It's like giving a BMX guy a Huffy from Walmart to use . . .

I am a beginner homebrewer and over on the Homebrewing forum guys have cooled their beer lines like you talk about. I know one guy over there did the liquid cooled option, but his lines were really long. It seemed like a LOT of work to me. I wouldn't think it'd be quite necessary for your case here. I like the idea of the PVC air chamber.

Great analogy on the CAD programs. smile.gif I'm sure that experienced 3Ders will use what they like; for me, I'm having a great time on my Huffy... biggrin.gif

Thanks for the comments on the cooling. I agree and I'm leaning toward air cooling, given its relative simplicity and the short runs I'll be doing. Here's the faucet tower I ordered:


The website states that it's designed to be air cooled, so I'll play around with that and a mock-up of the PVC chambers once I receive everything. There was an 8 week leadtime for both the kegerators and this tower, so I wanted to get that process underway. I plan to start on the rest of the cabinetry and then finalize that portion of the bar once I'm satisfied that things will work as expected...
post #54 of 385
Thread Starter 
A little more progress this weekend. Started off with a visit to my local hardwood supplier. Here's the start of the bar... 172 bd-ft of 4/4 African Mahogany + 7 sheets of 3/4" plywood:



Then it was time to put together a new tool that arrived on Friday, a drum sander for the panels:



All looked to be in good shape from shipping:



To get this thing up onto its stand, I used my "sky hook", which is really just heavy duty hook that I attached to one of the major trusses in the ceiling. It has bailed me out of several heavy lifting situations...



The final product, ready to go to work:



I'm hoping to start cutting real wood this week!
post #55 of 385
Nice! I wish I had a "sky hook" in my garage. But I don't have anything up in there I'd trust to do that! eek.gif
post #56 of 385
Nice !

Note: I can barely even ride my huffy bike (sketchup) biggrin.gif
post #57 of 385
Thread Starter 
Time for deconstruction! Thankfully that was a pretty reasonable task for this project....

When the house was built, a concrete retaining wall was mis-positioned such that it protruded 2" into the basement. To finish that out originally, I had furred out that lower wall so that it could be covered with drywall. Now I wanted to remove that furring so that I could gain another 2" of space within the bar.

Here's the best picture I have of what I started with -- this shot was taken before the HT was built, looking down along this rear wall. The lower 4' of drywall needs to go:



So last night I started, pretty much by just ripping the drywall off. We've all been there...



Most of the way through:



Behind the drywall, above the stem wall, was a lot of blown-in cellulose insulation. I like the insulation, but it's pretty messy, so I needed to button up that exposed insulation. The right bay in this shot shows what I started with; in the middle bay, I've removed some of the insulation (it loosely sticks together from when it was installed with some binder); in the left bay I've inserted / reused some of the rigid insulation I pulled out earlier.



Done and cleaned up. I'll eventually need to fur out the top section where upper cabinets will be installed, but that can come a bit later.



All of this concrete wall will eventually be covered by cabinetry. I will need to get some holes drilled through it for water and drains, but I'll wait until the cabinets are in so I don't have to guess at locations. I will also need to relocate the HVAC vent, but more on that later...
post #58 of 385
Hmmmm....and I thought I was surgical with my deconstructions.....I bet the discarded materials are even neatly organized in your trash bin to maximize its loading efficiency - lol! biggrin.gif Good stuff!

Oh - and I am very jealous of that ceiling-mounted hook to lift heavy objects. I have absolutely no idea what I would use it for, but I want one!
post #59 of 385
NICE shop space! And the theater is alright too ;-) Have you thought of concrete counter tops to match the floor instead of the granite? Although if I had your woodworking skills that bar top would be a nice slab of wood.
post #60 of 385
Your way too neat and organized on your demolition. I'd suggest making a mess. smile.gif


It builds character to have to clean it, and regret making such a mess in the first place. That's how I do it. Every time. frown.gif

I'm jealous of your shop too!
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