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Desert Sunset Theater Build - Page 11

post #301 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


Another will be Mark Seaton's diy offering when it's released. It's a high end, diy cabinet, for an AE 12", and a comp HF.

Good luck

I've been holding off on ordering the 3pi's until I see what the 12" and 15" designs Mark Seaton comes up with.
post #302 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

I've been holding off on ordering the 3pi's until I see what the 12" and 15" designs Mark Seaton comes up with.

He and I spent considerable amount of time visiting, while at CEDIA. One of the items we talked about was the DIY offering. They should be very nice, magnetic grills, nice cabinet, nice veneer, etc. Everything he does, he does very well.

I believe the eD offering is available now. IMO, it should be a steal,...for what it should be able to accomplish. But, the cool thing about the 3pi's, is Wayne's support,...another very bright audio guy.
post #303 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

He and I spent considerable amount of time visiting, while at CEDIA. One of the items we talked about was the DIY offering. They should be very nice, magnetic grills, nice cabinet, nice veneer, etc. Everything he does, he does very well.

I believe the eD offering is available now. IMO, it should be a steal,...for what it should be able to accomplish. But, the cool thing about the 3pi's, is Wayne's support,...another very bright audio guy.

I was hoping with Seatons designs, I could make my own cabinets, I'm still not sure how the Seaton thing is going to work. I've seen the elemental designs cinema series and am not sure what drivers and such they use. I'm a bit leary of the low price. I have also had some issues with elemental in the past. Placed an order for a driver and waited and waited. No communication from ed. When I finally got a response it was going to take months to get my driver. Ended up using the reference HO's from Partsexpress. -

I think if I am going to give the horn thing a fair shake I need to get something with some good drivers. It seems like the 3pi with the upgraded drivers would be the equivalent of a $3k speaker so it seems like a good place to start.
post #304 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

I've seen the elemental designs cinema series and am not sure what drivers and such they use. I'm a bit leary of the low price. I have also had some issues with elemental in the past.

I think if I am going to give the horn thing a fair shake I need to get something with some good drivers. It seems like the 3pi with the upgraded drivers would be the equivalent of a $3k speaker so it seems like a good place to start.

The eD cinema's, are availed to us stock, or with upgraded drivers. I don't know the LF driver, however the HF upgrade is the ubiquitous B&C-DE250. Also, I'm aware of eD's customer service issues in the past. I've not heard of any problems in some time,..actually, quite the contrary. That said, anything can happen. WRT quality drivers if you do go horn/waveguide; I couldn't agree more. If you consider waveguides/horns, do it in the best way possible,..like you said, good quality drive units.

The B&C DE-250 is far and away the best, reasonably priced comp HF driver out there. Geddes uses them, with great success, in his work. Generally, everyone prefers it over others in it's price range. Above that you've got to explore BMS (really sweet, especially the coax compression), and then all the way up to TAD (stupid expensive, however they do things others can't). for a long time, I used TAD comp tweeters in the HF section of mains for live work. Wonderful, absolutely wonderful.


You've likely heard of Hales,..superb HiFi loudspeakers, over the past 20 years. Well Paul Hales has immersed himself into high output cinema territory. Generally, hifi stuff, brought into HT world can really suffer dynamically when attempting to fill a room with realistic levels. Well Hales new company, ProAudio Tech has some killer pieces. I sought them out, and I've heard their lower end products, and they're stunning. Their top line stuff is what I'd make if I were making my own DIY, cost no object. BMS coax, in a waveguide for pattern control, in the middle of a big MTM config. Anyway, check them out Pro Audio Tech. They've got full commercial cinema screen channel mains, all the way down to in-walls, which they demoed at CEDIA. They were unbelievable. Everything they do, employs compression HF. In their main demo room at CEDIA, they used their smallest product, a double 5" two way, in-wall. It certainly opened my eyes. It was highly capable.

My faves of their's that I'd like to hear are their double 15" MTM here. Nice pic here. One important aspect I feel is Hales' intimate understanding and experience with the importance of the cabinet's contribution. Bringing this to the high output arena, and combining his previous techniques with these superb drivers should yield outstanding results.

While visiting with the Pro Audio Tech staff at CEDIA, they explained how many mastering rooms, screening rooms, both commercial and private are adopting these loudspeakers. Those BMS coaxs are sweet. Combining them with solid cabinets, those waveguides, and dsp contouring is awesome.


Sorry for the OT post, thought you may be interested.

Good luck with that stage
post #305 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Its funny you mention Hales. I was a fan of Hales speakers for quite a while. I had the Revelation 3, Revelation Center, Concept 2's (all these were purchased from me by a friend of mine) and Transcendence 1's (Still have the T-1's). When Paul shut down Hales Design Group he went to QSC to work for them in their speaker division. I contacted him there a few times for support issues relating to drivers for his speakers.

Paul is a great guy and so I checked out his offerings when he started PHC. (Professional Home Cinema) PHC seemed to be aimed at extremely high end installations. None of their offerings seemed remotely affordable. I tend to DIY or buy my speakers on the used market and since I would never likely see PHC speakers on the used market I sort of put them out of my mind. It looks like they are expanding into more affordable speakes with Pro Audio Tech so maybe its time to check them out again.
post #306 of 1093
I don't think they are that affordable,...they are absolutely top flight.
post #307 of 1093
Wow, how did you learn to do all that? pretty impressive so far. Tagging along for the ride.
post #308 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Here are some shots of the completed stage. You can see the conduit that I installed so I could run speaker wire out the front of the stage. This way I have the option to have speakers behind the screen or out in front of the stage for music listening.



post #309 of 1093
Looking very good so far. How wide and tall are the soffits?
post #310 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

The soffit dimensions are 10" by 30" A bit bigger than I would have liked but it was the width I needed for the HVAC for the theater and the room above. Now that it is up I am pleased with the look. The star ceiling will be about 9'8" wide.

The ceiling height is 8'6 or so after the clips and channel and all the drywall were in. There's plenty of clearance now but I'm a bit worried about the ceiling height where the riser is going to be.

Search is your friend!
post #311 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by damelon View Post

Your estimate is high. You will need just under 4000 lbs of sand. I did almost an identical stage, in fact I think mine is a little bit bigger even, and had a few bags too many when I did 4000lbs. So you won't even need that much.

Trust me, you don't want to have to return it

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1350179&page=4

By the way damelon you were right - I ended up right around 50 bags @ 60 lbs each so right around 3000 lbs. I think the 60 lb bags were closer to 1 cubic feet not the 1/2 cubic feet listed on the bag.
post #312 of 1093
Thread Starter 
I hooked up a simple stereo system to test out the subs. All the drivers appear to be working. It was hard to get an idea of what they are really capable of because the temporary setup I used does not have any bass management for the main speakers. When I played material with really deep bass the monitors were really pushing hard trying to play that deep bass. I need to properly set up a processor so I can do bass management set crossovers etc. It does not sound great in the live room but it was nice to verify that it is working. I cranked up the gain on the Behringer amp and even when the subs were playing very loudly and totally energizing the room the drivers seem to be barely moving. I'm sure with some tweaking the subs are going to be awesome.

post #313 of 1093
Thread Starter 
I also did some work over the weekend on the soffits. Built out a spot to place the projector, and enclosed the area for the can lights. The can lights are enclosed here because I plan to use the rear soffit as a bass trap and it will be filled with insulation.

post #314 of 1093
Soffits looking good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

I cranked up the gain on the Behringer amp and even when the subs were playing very loudly and totally energizing the room the drivers seem to be barely moving.

I discovered the same thing. With music, (4)18"s aren't going to move much since the frequencies encountered aren't deep enough to really task them. With the exception of some synth tones, or huge pipe organ, only the deep/extended low special effects frequencies, played at higher levels will get those cones moving. I've found full spectrum rock music, guitars, bass, and drums, played back at live levels will tap the amps reserve way before the drivers are stressed. This clip light flickering is preferred over a nasty driver bottoming. Over-kill on the driver side of the equation is a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

I plan to use the rear soffit as a bass trap and it will be filled with insulation.

Nice idea, as much bass trapping as you can get without overly deadening the space in the MF/HF. Any additional bass traps? The other soffits perhaps? I did notice the panels straddling the front corners.



Good luck

btw; I'll bet you can't wait to get those PBN/Montana's in there
post #315 of 1093
Thread Starter 
I plan to completely fill the front and rear soffits for bass traps. Would like also to add some additional on the sides but one side soffit is completely taken up by HVAC. I will also have bass traps in the 3 corners of the room and try to turn the riser into a trap. The panels you see are from my last home theater. I just moved them in there for some listening. Those panels are the only absorbing surface in the entire room so as you can imagine it sounds like a mess. The bass was pretty muddy but it seemed to be getting better after playing for a couple of hours while I was working. The drivers suspensions do seem very stiff and I think they will continue to loosen up.
post #316 of 1093
Nice soffits! What are you going to fill them with for bass trapping?
post #317 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

Nice soffits! What are you going to fill them with for bass trapping?

I'll fill the soffits with Roxul Safe and Sound or the Roxul Acoustical Fire Batts. Safe and Sound is a little denser than AFB but either should work well in this application.
post #318 of 1093
Nice work on the soffits and stage.. the room is coming together very nicely.

How wide did you make your hush box?
post #319 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Nice work on the soffits and stage.. the room is coming together very nicely.

How wide did you make your hush box?

The hush box is 26" wide. I made it wide to accommodate a projector with a lens offset to one side. The box is a bit far back in the room. If I put the projector completely in the box the lens would be 20' from the screen. With a 10' wide scope screen (130" diag), I can get my image large enough from this distance but I may not be able to get the 16:9 image small enough (at least with the JVC's and Panny projectors I've been looking at). I may actually have to mount the projector in front of the box to get the lens at about 18.5-19'. My plan originally was to have the PJ at 18' but the soffit I was going to build was too close to the other. I thought of widening the soffit but was worried about headroom over the riser. I figured as long as the rear of the projector is close to the box I can still remove hot air and run the cables. I guess I will have to see where things end up once I make a final choice on the projector.
post #320 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by stockmonkey2000 View Post

The drivers suspensions do seem very stiff and I think they will continue to loosen up.

I remember that, those drivers are incredibly stiff,...prior to any extended use. Good luck with the bass traps.
post #321 of 1093
Thread Starter 
They do seem to be loosening up a bit. I did pull out the rest of my old bass traps from the storage room and just placed them on the stage. That did tighten up the bass a bit. The room still has very little decay (as you would expect), the bass notes really blend into each other.

post #322 of 1093
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

I read somewhere that the typical 1/2" gypsum, 16" centers 2X4 wall actually provides some bass control.

Yes, there are porous absorbers, and pressure based absorption. Porous absorbers, like fiberglass, etc. bass traps, work ideally at the 1/4 wavelength point (the point of highest velocity). And yes, pressure based absorption, like a diagrammatic wall you're describing, is helpful in mitigating modal issues in small rooms by being a pressure based absorber and dissipating LF energy.

The actual spectral balance of the attenuation of a drywall/wood stud constructed wall, is outlined in Everest's Acoustics, as is other wall construction methods,...good read in tandem with Toole's Sound Reproduction.

-----------

Stockmonkey,

Those 3 sides tri-corner traps look interesting, is that an off the shelf item, or is that a DIY effort? Do you have more?

Thanks
post #323 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post


Stockmonkey,

Those 3 sides tri-corner traps look interesting, is that an off the shelf item, or is that a DIY effort? Do you have more?

Thanks

They are DIY Bass traps. I built them for my last theater room. 2 of the traps are made with the Roxul 60 Rockboard (6 lbs cubic foot) and 2 are Roxul 80 (8 lbs cubic foot) cut into triangles 24x24x33 (2x4 sheet cut into 4 triangles) They are covered with Guilford of Maine fabric. I could not find OC703 in my area so I used the Roxul stuff. I would use it again even if I had a source for OC703. It is significantly cheaper than the 703 - the only disadvantage is that it is not quite as rigid and twice as heavy.

The roxul 60 have very similar absorption as the OC703 panels everyone uses. I made the other 2 out of the 80 because it has a bit better low frequency performance. I found the specs here:

http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm

In my old theater I placed these in each corner of the room, so I only have 4. I also have some 4" thick and 2" thick wall treatments still in the storage room. The treatments made a huge difference in the room. In my current room one corner is occupied by a door so I'm going to try and get as much bass trapping as I can in the soffits.
post #324 of 1093
Thread Starter 
I picked up the 4x10 MDF sheets that I special ordered and started laying out the star ceiling panels. My truck only has a 5 foot bed so driving home with 5 -4x10 sheets was interesting. First started with the curved portion at the front.



Then lifted it up to test fit. Looks easy in the pics but it was 3 hours of work to get to this point. Had to make a new template for the curve on the front.

post #325 of 1093
Thread Starter 
I also did some work on the hush box. Ran the fan duct and conduit and installed the electrical box for the powerbridge. All the initial wiring will be run outside the conduit leaving the conduit open for future expansion.

post #326 of 1093
^^^^

Nice construction.
post #327 of 1093
SM2K - great progress so far. On your hush box vent, do you have an in-line fan? If so, how are you controlling it? I'm planning for in-line exhaust fan and trying to find a way to wire it so it turns on when the box reaches certain temp.
post #328 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by misugrad View Post

SM2K - great progress so far. On your hush box vent, do you have an in-line fan? If so, how are you controlling it? I'm planning for in-line exhaust fan and trying to find a way to wire it so it turns on when the box reaches certain temp.

I'm doing the same thing. This is the thermostat that I am going to use. I think I purchased this at Amazon.



Here is the fan I am using. I need to rig up a way to hook up the vent to the intake.

post #329 of 1093
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post

Does the thermostat go inside the hush box or is there a remote temperature sensor that plugs into it?

The thermostat will install right in the box. It does not have a remote sensor.
post #330 of 1093
Thread Starter 
The illuminator for the star ceiling arrived.

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