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Need an easy/novice friendly mix

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
Hello everyone,

Going to be making a cheap theater to tide me over until I get some quality components/retractable AT screen in the future (1-3 years). It's also in lieu of buying an LCD for gaming/sports and hopefully to put a fire under my wife to put a nice setup in the family room.

What I need is a simple mix, not worried if it costs $40 vs $80, just want something that is the easiest for a novice to put up and looks reasonably good (the largest/best TV I've watched for any length of time is a 52 1080p LCD so anything is probably going to amaze me). Here is the crucial info:
  • This will be rolled
  • Screen size: around 100, probably 16:9
  • Room dimensions: 15'x11' (opens to a larger area)
  • Light controlled basement, two small windows but I can curtain or block them off if I feel like it. Although odds are there will be some ambient light at least some of the time (wife won't watch in the pitch black)
  • Walls will be dark brown, ceiling will be white (I know, I know, may change that later)
  • Existing wall will be used for screen, it's a light brown now so I'll prime it white first
  • Not sure on the throw distance probably 13'-14' Just going to hold up the PJ and move, zoom until it fills the screen, then ceiling mount it
  • PJ: Optoma HD66
  • I have easy access to Home Depot, Lowes, Michaels and Sherwin Williams so I'd like to keep the components from those places.
  • Use will be HDTV, PS3, PC (occasionally) and some Blu-Ray/DVD movies.

Just from reading through the various mixes the ingredients for this one seems easily accessible and it doesn't have a lot of components for me to screw up:
  • 1 quart of behr 4850 flat
  • 1 quart of Minwax Polyacrylic Satin (water based)
  • 2 - 8 oz. bottles gleams ceramcoat pearl
  • 1 - 8 oz. bottle gleams ceramcoat silver

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

How many coats would be needed, 2?
post #2 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd View Post

Hello everyone,

Going to be making a cheap theater to tide me over until I get some quality components/retractable AT screen in the future (1-3 years).

What I need is a simple mix, not worried if it costs $40 vs $80, just want something that is the easiest for a novice to put up and looks reasonably good. Here is the crucial info:
  • This will be rolled
  • Screen size: around 100, probably 16:9
  • Room dimensions: 15'x11' (opens to a larger area)
  • Light controlled basement, two small windows but I can curtain or block them off if I feel like it. Although odds are there will be some ambient light at least some of the time (wife won't watch in the pitch black)
  • Walls will be dark brown, ceiling will be white (I know, I know, may change that later)
  • Existing wall will be used for screen, it's a light brown now so I'll prime it white first
  • Not sure on the throw distance probably 13'-14' Just going to hold up the PJ and move, zoom until it fills the screen, then ceiling mount it
  • PJ: Optoma HD66
  • I have easy access to Home Depot, Lowes, Michaels and Sherwin Williams so I'd like to keep the components from those places.
  • Use will be HDTV, PS3, PC (occasionally) and some Blu-Ray/DVD movies.

Just from reading through the various mixes the ingredients for this one seems easily accessible and it doesn't have a lot of components for me to screw up:
  • 1 quart of behr 4850 flat
  • 1 quart of Minwax Polyacrylic Satin (water based)
  • 2 - 8 oz. bottles gleams ceramcoat pearl
  • 1 - 8 oz. bottle gleams ceramcoat silver

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

How many coats would be needed, 2?

That's a good place to start, "mix-wise"

Apply such using at least 2 fully rolled out coats.
post #3 of 45
Thread Starter 
Thanks. I'll be getting all of the stuff this weekend so hopefully by next week I'll have a screen up and the room repainted.
post #4 of 45
Sound like an OTS paint would be best.
post #5 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperactiveme View Post

Sound like an OTS paint would be best.

Obviously OTS would be easiest, and many are content to stop there. The second easiest would be black widow, only two components, and it is also rollable.

EDIT: sorry, missed the part about wanting to keep it to local stores. The Auto Air Aluminum ingredient for black widow can be tough to source locally. You might find it at an auto paint store or an air brush store.
post #6 of 45
Thread Starter 
I need to move the bottom tape down 1 inch, miss-measured, it's 2.39 if I leave it and going for 2.35 (most current movies seem to be 2.35 from the quick IMDB search I did of movies I like/have).

If I had an electrician move the light switch I think I could have done a 120" but this is a quick and easy theater space. I'll go something bigger and nicer in a couple of years. Of course I can always make it bigger later, just paint right.

I picked up the Behr UPW its code 1750 at home depot, mixer, rollers, primer and the poly. Just need to head to Michaels tomorrow and get the craft paint.

Going to paint the room first then the screen. The tape is allowing a 1 inch overlap of the border so once I move the bottom tape line down an inch, paint the room and remove the tape the resulting “hole” will be the screen with a 1 inch bleed. I’ll then tape within the frame border and roll the primer 2x then screen paint 2-3x.

I think I’m going to have to go with Satin on the walls as Sherwin-Williams doesn’t list eggshell (I prefer SW paint). Flat is just going to get smudged up by my kids regardless of what I do. Thinking “French Roast”, my wife thinks it’s way too dark so then it must be a good color.

Sorry for the crappy phone pic, I’ll take better ones this weekend/week



Wall color, oddly enough the two samples I picked are practically identical:
post #7 of 45
Good Luck with the project I can't wait to see some updated pics. Your cat already seems to enjoy the room as well.
post #8 of 45
Does the wall have texture? (orange peel)
If so, are you planning to sand?
post #9 of 45
OP, you don't need the mix to be that transparent and runny, and you don't need it darkened with silver either.

No matter what mix you use, the picture will suffer because of the white ceiling's proximity - which you'll probably get around to correcting. And as mentioned, you'll want to paint a fairly smooth surface.

Given your darkened room, I suggest this brighter mix instead.

1 part Minwax - a 6 oz can
2 parts flat white - buy a quart and use 12 oz
3 parts pearl - buy 3 - 8oz bottles and use 18 oz

Roll 2 coats.
post #10 of 45
design1stcode2nd,


Have you started painting with a "Finish" mix yet? If so, considering the other input you received, did you opt to change your plans as to what components to acquire?

I hope not, because you'll need at least some degree of ambient light performance, if only because of the reflections you'll get from that existing white-painted Fur Down / Chase.

In truth, your distance from the top of the Screen to the existing ceiling elsewhere is not going to be that bad of an issue. The 2.35:1 ratio keeps the screen pretty much far enough away from everything except that Fur Down.

Mix wise, you'd be best served to stick to the original idea of combining modest amounts of BOTH Pearl and Silver elements. However, my query as to if you had already sarted is rooted in the hope you might still have the option to use the Liquitex version of Silver Metallic.

The mix you were originally considering is basically a version of RS-MaxxMudd, a well known, well documented success story of a DIY mix. In the "LL" version (Low Lumen - High Gain) it's eminently roll-able.

Something can be said for considering the use of a OTS Paint tinted a neutral Gray of approx a Munsell 8.0 level. Your screen is not huge, but you would indeed be wise to mount the PJ first, allowing for the Lens Offset of 12.9" for a 100" diagonal screen. That means you'll have to mount the PJ using a very low profile Ceiling Mount, and hopefully one that can easily accommodate a drop adjustment variable.

Another issue is Throw distance...as the furthers back the lens can be and have you stay within 100" diagonal is 13' 1' and you do not want to be so deep within the uttermost limits of your PJ's Focal length. 12' 6" would be at least a noticeable improvement, being that the overall throw distance parameters of the HD66 at 100" diagonal only varies between 11' 11" out to 13' 1" .

Installations such as yours are often considered to be "simple" when in fact there are several aspects of design that can either compliment or work against your end results. Truthfully, unless you really miscalculate things, or just simply settle for whatever you come up with, you can create an application that will far exceed your expectations...and do so without undue effort or expense. But all the same there are some things you should not overlook or pass up, items that just might...in the long run...change your mind about ever spending excessive amounts of cash for a Mfg. Screen.

Here's hoping this post either finds you primed and ready to paint, bit not so far committed to screen size or exact location of the PJ's mounting that you cannot consider adapting your plans accordingly.

MM

PS...,

If you paint the room first, then be advised you had better get the Screen Formatting zoned in "beforehand". What with the Lens Off-Set, you'll need to know "exactly" what drop distance potential your chosen Mount will allow...as trying to judge such by simply mounting the PJ on a Table Top is not an effective method. If your good with measuring things exactly, and have a Mount in mind that will allow for 3" to 6' adjustment, and at least a degree of "Side-to-Side" adjustment, you should be able to locate the PJ close enough to center it effectively. Good luck in that respect as it's perhaps the most critical issue you'll be facing since the HD66 has no ability as far as "Lens Shift" to help you correct any miscue along the lines of centering the PJ's lens "exactly" in the center of the Screen. That's why mounting the PJ first THEN marking and taping off the Screen's perimeter is always best when using such DLP PJs.
post #11 of 45
With the HD66 I would assume most consider that a fairly bright machine and your screen size not excessively large and from the photos there will be an ambient light issue.

It was refreshing to see someone suggest a simple gray formula for your needs or maybe one enriched with some poly. I read your thread when you first posted but I don’t like to make screen suggestions so I couldn’t say if the Munsell 8.0 would be correct for you or not as to all the possibilities mm has pointed out could vary things.

I do have a mount design that I used that allows all axis of motion including side to side and is compact in drop height if you are interested in building such.

post #12 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

design1stcode2nd,


Have you started painting with a "Finish" mix yet? If so, considering the other input you received, did you opt to change your plans as to what components to acquire?

I hope not, because you'll need at least some degree of ambient light performance, if only because of the reflections you'll get from that existing white-painted Fur Down / Chase.

In truth, your distance from the top of the Screen to the existing ceiling elsewhere is not going to be that bad of an issue. The 2.35:1 ratio keeps the screen pretty much far enough away from everything except that Fur Down.

Mix wise, you'd be best served to stick to the original idea of combining modest amounts of BOTH Pearl and Silver elements. However, my query as to if you had already sarted is rooted in the hope you might still have the option to use the Liquitex version of Silver Metallic.

The mix you were originally considering is basically a version of RS-MaxxMudd, a well known, well documented success story of a DIY mix. In the "LL" version (Low Lumen - High Gain) it's eminently roll-able.

Something can be said for considering the use of a OTS Paint tinted a neutral Gray of approx a Munsell 8.0 level. Your screen is not huge, but you would indeed be wise to mount the PJ first, allowing for the Lens Offset of 12.9" for a 100" diagonal screen. That means you'll have to mount the PJ using a very low profile Ceiling Mount, and hopefully one that can easily accommodate a drop adjustment variable.

Another issue is Throw distance...as the furthers back the lens can be and have you stay within 100" diagonal is 13' 1' and you do not want to be so deep within the uttermost limits of your PJ's Focal length. 12' 6" would be at least a noticeable improvement, being that the overall throw distance parameters of the HD66 at 100" diagonal only varies between 11' 11" out to 13' 1" .

Installations such as yours are often considered to be "simple" when in fact there are several aspects of design that can either compliment or work against your end results. Truthfully, unless you really miscalculate things, or just simply settle for whatever you come up with, you can create an application that will far exceed your expectations...and do so without undue effort or expense. But all the same there are some things you should not overlook or pass up, items that just might...in the long run...change your mind about ever spending excessive amounts of cash for a Mfg. Screen.

Here's hoping this post either finds you primed and ready to paint, bit not so far committed to screen size or exact location of the PJ's mounting that you cannot consider adapting your plans accordingly.

MM

PS...,

If you paint the room first, then be advised you had better get the Screen Formatting zoned in "beforehand". What with the Lens Off-Set, you'll need to know "exactly" what drop distance potential your chosen Mount will allow...as trying to judge such by simply mounting the PJ on a Table Top is not an effective method. If your good with measuring things exactly, and have a Mount in mind that will allow for 3" to 6' adjustment, and at least a degree of "Side-to-Side" adjustment, you should be able to locate the PJ close enough to center it effectively. Good luck in that respect as it's perhaps the most critical issue you'll be facing since the HD66 has no ability as far as "Lens Shift" to help you correct any miscue along the lines of centering the PJ's lens "exactly" in the center of the Screen. That's why mounting the PJ first THEN marking and taping off the Screen's perimeter is always best when using such DLP PJs.


Work has be proceeding, I'll take pictures tonight and upload them. I painted the Theater room and moved some furniture into it. My wife sees how nice it looks and suggests I paint the rest of the basement and stairs. It needed to be painted but that pushed me back. Now after mudding, sanding, priming and one coat on the rest of the basement brings me to where I am now. I'll probably need to take a day this week or early next week to finish as it's about 6 hours worth of painting with the stairwell (I hate painting stairwells).

Anyway after doing more reading and using projector central's calculator I find my screened off area will need to come down some. The drop on the HD66 is 14 for my 2.35 screen (112 diag, 103 wide by 44 tall), figure 2 to the center of the lens as it's a 3.9 high unit and my mount is 5.5 gives me an overall drop of 21.5 inches. So I need to move my screen down about 3-4 inches (I had planned to leave a one inch bleed/overlay for the screen frame so my screen was supposed to be 17.5 inches down.

Also according to projector central I have a range of 14' 7 to 13' 4 (the furthest it can be is 14'). So I'm going to find the rafter inside that range, put the mount on the projector and center it on the screen (level of course). Then I'll hook it up and project a 2.35 movie still on it and use it to mark my screen boundary again. Getting it exactly center is going to take a lot of measuring I'm thinking. Once I tape it off again with my level I'll sand it again to be doubly sure it's smooth (this was one of the better walls in the basement) and put two coats of primer as I'm going to need to cover up 3-4 inches of a very dark brown paint.

When I take my pictures tonight I'll take pics of my screen ingredients so you can see if I got the right stuff.

I want to see how bad the reflections are on the soffit to the left, I'm expecting it to be noticeable. I'm thinking I'll take some black paper/board I have and tape it up so I and my wife can see the difference. If it's significant (which I'm sure it will be) then I can persuade her to let me at least paint the soffit black. I'll have 21-22 from the main part of the ceiling so I hope that won't be as noticeable. I guess it would look odd to just paint 3'-4' of it?






Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post

With the HD66 I would assume most consider that a fairly bright machine and your screen size not excessively large and from the photos there will be an ambient light issue.

It was refreshing to see someone suggest a simple gray formula for your needs or maybe one enriched with some poly. I read your thread when you first posted but I don't like to make screen suggestions so I couldn't say if the Munsell 8.0 would be correct for you or not as to all the possibilities mm has pointed out could vary things.

I do have a mount design that I used that allows all axis of motion including side to side and is compact in drop height if you are interested in building such.


That is a good idea. I am worried about being off by a small amount. Perhaps I can just mount the PJ to a board and then mount that to a slider.
post #13 of 45
There are better ways to effect a decent mount. The one shown uses components from a Mount that can provide everything you need without the Wood Shop add ons.

Chief RPA PJ Specific Mounts allow you to use an easily "cut to length" Sch.40 PVC Pipe w/Threaded Fittings at each end, a good looking Ceiling Plate, and the 1.5" PVC Pipe allows you to pass the HDMI / Power down through it for a cleaner look.

Really, if you can mount the PJ first, and shoot / frame your image location, there is no need at all to be concerned about needing a "Slider'.

Or any real "absolutely precise" measurements as far as drop. Really close will be "Close Enough".

As far as the under hanging painted surface, the very best thing would not be Flat Black paint, as when subjected to intense light, it will reflect a Blue-ish cast that is quite noticeable. A very dark...as in almost "Black looking"... Gray would be better.
post #14 of 45
Thread Starter 
After looking at various sliders and so forth I came to the same conclusion. I'll just measure as best I can and then mount the PJ, slap up a movie and tape off from there.

There should be photos with this post but I am at the ER with my wife so no dice for tonight. A least they have wi-fi, three hours of sitting in a hallway is gettin old though.
post #15 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd View Post

After looking at various sliders and so forth I came to the same conclusion. I'll just measure as best I can and then mount the PJ, slap up a movie and tape off from there.

It's so simple, even a..........* Well, you know.

Quote:


There should be photos with this post but I am at the ER with my wife so no dice for tonight. A least they have wi-fi, three hours of sitting in a hallway is gettin old though.

Take care of what's most important. I don't know whose gettin' "doctored", but the "Big Picture' is always nicer if you can share it with someone who matters.
post #16 of 45
Thread Starter 
After hours at the ER everyone is home and doing better. The ER wasn't really necessary but They had to be sure so

Anyway I was able to finish painting the walls of the basement and took a few pics. First are my ingredients for the screen. I went to Michaels yesterday and the only Liguitex paint they had were small 2oz bottles for $10 each, I took a pic from my phone which I'll post later today. Neither was a ceramcoat so I didn't buy it.

These are the ingredients I have now


Hopefully I have the right stuff although it looks like painting the screen will be near the end of the build.

Next I have some carpet shampooing to do so I can move all the furniture back. Some shots below show what I have so far (again this is an on the cheap build until I can do something nicer):

Screen wall (2.35, 112, will be moved down about 4 and plates painted the wall color)



Back wall (fish tank and desk it's on will move to the right of the computer hutch. AV rack will go in its place)



Looking out to the rest of the basement (kids area)



Looking into the Theater area (figure I can put 3 movie posters in there)



Kids area/stairs (ceiling and trim still need to be repainted but good enough for now)
post #17 of 45
that should work just fine...
you were probably looking at the liquitex full bodied acrylics instead of the basics.
as for the delta... delta has dropped the 'ceramcoat' name from their new lineup and it's just now calling it 'metallic silver' or 'pearl finish'
post #18 of 45
I'm revising my suggestion for your paint mix. I didn't adequately account for the brightness of your projector, etc. This is assuming you eventually will be dealing with the white ceiling near the screen.

1 part Minwax - 8 oz
2 parts pearl - 16 oz
3 parts white - 24 oz

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Time View Post

OP, you don't need the mix to be that transparent and runny, and you don't need it darkened with silver either.

No matter what mix you use, the picture will suffer because of the white ceiling's proximity - which you'll probably get around to correcting. And as mentioned, you'll want to paint a fairly smooth surface.

Given your darkened room, I suggest this brighter mix instead.

1 part Minwax - a 6 oz can
2 parts flat white - buy a quart and use 12 oz
3 parts pearl - buy 3 - 8oz bottles and use 18 oz

Roll 2 coats.
post #19 of 45
given what i know in working directly with those components... far more than anyone else i know...

stick with your original plan with a slight deviation.

24oz - Behr white 1750
16oz - Pearl finish
12oz - minwax.
8oz - metallic Silver

3 coats - using a 3/16 or 1/4inch nap roller.
post #20 of 45
Thread Starter 
Looks like I'll have to make some adjustments to the size of the screen. I didn't really think it through and with this level of projector a 2.35 screen isn't going to work. Not sure why I didn't think of this before but since the HD66 and similar DLP projectors don't have much in the way of zoom I need to decide on a 16:9 screen size and my 2.35 will just be the same width but shorter.

The max height-wise I can do is probably 48-50 inches (soffit is 12 down and outlet is 18 off the floor and figure 7 for a border leaves a max of 51) so I'll need to mount the PJ about 12' back. I think I'll get some 1x10 or 1x12 and screw that into two rafters so I can place the PJ anywhere within 12-18. I'll also need some 1.5 gas pipe as the drop will only be 6 instead of 14.

I almost feel like saying screw it and just get a Pany 4000 but we have to do Disney this year for the kids and that's going to be $4k+ before all is said and done.

If nothing else it's going to be really bright, probably over 40FL, hope the HD66 has an eco mode.
post #21 of 45
Oh no...forget the gas/metal pipe. Look to your PM for a number to call for some quick real time installation advice as far as specific materials and retrofitting. It can all be quite easy and cost effective with the right choices made going in from the start...and I'm glad to help in the regard.

Afterward, post up the solutions so everyone else can benefit.
post #22 of 45
Thread Starter 
Thanks MM, if I get confused I'll be happy to have your assistance.

The mount I have takes standard 1.5" pipe so I can have an exact size made and threaded at home depot/lowes. http://www.mountdirect.com/ProductDe...roductCode=NPL

That's the one I bought, now that I'm thinking straight in regards to 1.78 vs. 2.35 I think mounting should be straight forward. I'll now have an additional 15 or so inches to play with side to side since it will be 16:9.
post #23 of 45
Home Depot sells threaded "Pipe Nipples" in sizes ranging from 2" - 4" - 6" -8" - 12"

That 2" er is most likely what your looking for.

Personally, I prefer using Schedule 40 PVC and the needed fittings, but if the drop pipe is only gonna be 2-3", Metal is OK.

But if your going to paint it, scrape the label off and wire brush it thoroughly as you'll find the pipe's coating to be resistive to getting a good finish.
post #24 of 45
Thread Starter 
Probably going to be 4"-6" (4-5" mount, 6" drop, 2" to center of the projector and I need to hit about 16" down) since there is a short pipe as part of the mount, going to measure that as well.

I'll be taping up the "new" screen tonight, finding the center and measuring for my throw range. I'm hoping it's not going to right where the overhead can light is. If it isn't it's going to be close.
post #25 of 45
Thread Starter 
Well I adjusted the screen for a 16:9, 100 and centered it in the wall. Take a guess what was smack dab in the middle of my throw range?

So I can either have an electrician come in and move the lights and do more drywall repair, offset the screen 1-2 feet to the right, or just get a better PJ. I'm part of the instant gratification generation so I'll likely be ordering a Panasonic AE4000 in the next couple of days. The throw would be about 13' 6 and I think I can squeeze out a 116 2.35 screen leaving me with 92 16:9.

I'm allowing 7 for the screen frame, going to pick up some of the MDF from the depot, move one of my speakers to where it would go and then project up an image and just make it as big as I can.
post #26 of 45
Thread Starter 
Painting the screenwall on Thursday, I'll post up shots afterward. Hope to have the first showing Friday or Saturday. Only thing left after that will be to build the screen frame (posters and other decor will need to wait).
post #27 of 45
cool. looking forward to seeing what you decide as a final screen mix and of course i'm sure...your excellent results.
post #28 of 45
Thread Starter 
Planning on going with your mix:

24oz - Behr white 1750
16oz - Pearl finish
12oz - minwax.
8oz - metallic Silver

Although I'm getting the AE4000 which is much dimmer compared to the HD66. Throw range will be 13' or a tad under. Even with a 1.0 screen the estimate is 15FL so hopefully this will be 1.1 or higher once all is said and done.
post #29 of 45
Thread Starter 
I’ll take some more photos this weekend I’m sure but I think it turned out pretty good. The speaker under the center channel is from a crappy HTIB I bought 10 years ago, just using it as a stand for now.



My first attempt at a screenshot, forgot to pause the movie so it’s a tad blurry.



Not sure why but I was expecting a more gray screen, the pearl and silver didn't seem to darken the UPW all that much.

Having nothing to compare it to it looks great to me.
post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd View Post

Not sure why but I was expecting a more gray screen, the pearl and silver didn't seem to darken the UPW all that much.

Having nothing to compare it to it looks great to me.

yep. when it comes to titanium oxide... there a sayin... "it do's what it do baby"

and yes your screen is a little more white then a full blown MaxxMudd LL... but you'd be amazed, i hear the same thing said over and over again about it.
everyone's expecting a GREY screen... no matter how many times i repeat, it's a silver-white screen... and it's really MEANT for dedicated viewing... without wanting to pitch a beer in the direction of someone who accidently turned on the lights.

your pic... while in-motion... looks very good. it has a very 3D feel to it...from foreground to background. i especially like the black level detail of deep brown modelation and detail of the mother's hair and the little boy's hair. a lot of that can get lost with darker grey screens.

love your setup.
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