New Sub - RSL Speedwoofer 10

did I miss the part where they posted any real specs? Output etc.? The driver excursion is pretty low...

We do have specs on our site. However, the excursion is over 40 mm. With the grill off, you can see it really move. However, the proof is in the hearing (or in the case of a sub, feeling as well). That's why we guarantee satisfaction. We only want happy customers. Personally, I think one of things that is pretty cool with the Speedwoofer is how we did the remote. The sensor along with motorized volume and frequency is in a separate small enclosure. It can be located within site and the sub can be hidden, unlike most remote controlled subs that have the sensor in the main enclosure.

Another thing: I wish we could have found a class D amp that we liked. It would have cheaper and the sub would have been lighter so our shipping costs would be less. However, all the ones we tested didn't have anywhere near the impact of the old tried and true class A/B analog we chose.

RogerSound Labs? I haven't heard that name since the 70s. I thought you guys were gone long ago. I assume this is a reincarnation of the original North Hollywood company.

Just found the bio on your web site. Answered my questions.

Welcome to AVS. Always good to get another speaker designer participating here. Hope you stick around.

My assumption then is that is 40mm peak to peak xmax?

There is nothing special looking with that driver to indicate it will do 40mm one way linear.

The JL Audio 10w7 and the TC Sounds LMS 10 are some of the linear xmax kings on the market, they employ a lot of unique technology just to get over 25mm. They also cost near $400 each.

I didn't see any graphs on your site unless I missed them.

At the 750 dollar price point there is a good number of established subs which have excellant sound and build.
It'll have to be a beast to compete.

From your post i'm guessing you're the PR guy?

I'm not seeing anything exceptional or really different about this sub. The marketing information looks like you are comparing it to 1980s subs. Modern subs don't suffer from some of the problems you describe in your 'other subs' comparisons to highlight the benefits of this sub. It's is a fairly small box, but not for a 10" sealed sub (correction: it is not a sealed box). It is only rated down to 24Hz +-3db. It says the driver can achieve .86" p-p excursion. That's only 22mm. A 9.5lb magnet is not what I would call massive. BTW, saying massive when referring to a 10" driver just doesn't cut it today. I remember RSL speakers that had 18" drivers and weren't called subwoofers. The amp doesn't look like there's anything special. The remote may be a cool feature, but who needs to change the LPF from their couch and most receivers have a very easy way to adjust channel volume via remote.

You keep referring to a design feature called Compression Guide Technology, but you don't explain just what that is. I found an old pamphlet on it, but it doesn't really explain what it is. It looks like nothing more than a slot port.

This may be an exceptional performing sub, but it needs to be marketed as something more than the sum of it's parts as there is nothing about the parts that appear to be exceptional. I'm not trying to be critical. Just wondering what you are bringing to the table that isn't already here.

Perhaps you can enlighten us, Roger.

Shouldn't your speaker packages be priced somewhat lower than the sum of the component prices.

This is Howard Rodgers himself. Owner/founder of the original and the new RSL.

Based on THIS review, it appears your goal in this design was to achieve clarity, accuracy, and presence more so than infrasonics and high output.

From reading the info on the site. It kind of sounds like a transmission line type of enclosure.

I think you raise some legitimate questions and I certainly don't blame you for being skeptical. I would be too. There are literally hundreds of speaker brands out there, many of them good. Every one of the (including us) uses glowing adjectives to describe how great they sound. I don't think we would sell many speakers if we just said they sound nice.

With that being said, there is a difference. We back up everything we say, with a pretty gutsy guarantee. As you probably know from the website, we will pay shipping both ways in addition to giving a full refund. If somebody returns the speakers, we take a big financial hit on the shipping and may wind up with speakers we cannot sell as new. If you look online, very few will refund shipping both ways. And, if you buy your speakers from a Home Theater shop, you have to face a salesperson who will loose his commission by giving you a refund. That's not the case if you buy a Home Theater in a Box' from Best Buy or Costco. However, that's not the category of our products.

As far as comparing our sub to the 1980 subs, that wasn't the case. We've been working on these speakers for 3 years. Before we went back in business we needed to be sure that we had something that was truly different or why bother? Several people who used to work for me now have their own home theater shops. So, we hauled our prototypes around to them for A/B comparisons, before making our business decision. When I refer to subwoofers, I am referring to current ones. I really don't like the transient response of most of them. To me, they really stick out like a sore thumb. Most speakers' bass do not sound like the bass you hear at a live performance. I blame conventional sealed box, vented (or passive radiator) designs. Compression Guide is a relatively simple design that uses internal partitions to divide to the enclosure into areas of higher and lower pressure. To us and the people who have heard it, it makes a huge difference.

And yes, the closet thing I can think of to Compression Guide is transmission line. However, because of the length of the line, it doesn't work in bookshelf speakers.

The frequency response of only down about 3 db at 24 Hz for a sub of that size is quite good, especially when you consider speed. Sure you may be able to get a subwoofer like a Sunfire that is much smaller, has a slow heavy cone and has 3,000 watts (give or take) to get low bass, but personally that is not my taste in bass. And the Speedwoofer has plenty of output. We've observed that in every installation of it so far, nobody ever cranks it up all the way.

You're right about the amp. It really isn't anything special. However, most of the competition uses amplifiers with either switching power supplies or class D circuitry made by companies like Bash. We sampled these amplifiers and found that they are OK, but didn't have the oomph of our analog amp. We also found that many manufacturers grossly overate the wattage. We used a 10 woofer instead of a 12, because we felt the 10 gave us all the deep bass we wanted with faster speed.

This is getting to be a little long, so let me say that if you find a comparably subwoofer that has all of our features including the fine cabinetry, please let me know. In that event, I'll hope ours sounds much better to make it worth it.

Feel free to call me personally at the phone number posted on our website.

Thanks for your thought provoking email (and thanks for spelling my name correctly).

Howard

I attended a demonstration of the new RSL speaker line on Sunday and was quite impressed with the "Speedwoofer". The sub was very nice sounding and integrated seamlessly with the speakers on the stands, even while moving around the room (not just in the "sweet spot"). One guy was standing right next to the sub while the music was playing and asked Howard, "Which sub is yours?". At half volume there was plenty of good, clean bass. The use of a remote to control output and x-over point is sweet (no more getting up to adjust the sub just to go back and tweak it just a little more). It also makes adjusting output for different tracks with more or less bass very convenient. My overall opinion is that the RSL "Speedwoofer" is an extremely capable sub at a very reasonable price, and can hold its own in comparison to many subs at much higher price points.

I am not seeing how this is a great buy at $750. I would like to know how it would compare to some of the ~$500 ID subs discussed here. Per their website: Guaranteed to equal or exceed any subwoofer at 3 times the price or your money back!

We used a 10 woofer instead of a 12, because we felt the 10 gave us all the deep bass we wanted with faster speed.

Howard could you explain to me the science behind this statement and how cone size between 10 and 12 makes "faster speed"?

Frequency Response: 24-180 Hz ± 3db
What output levels were these at/ what is max output at 24hz.

Are you looking into 3rd party independent testing?
Just trying to get an idea of how your sub stands up to others in testing. If you are going to push units online going to have to show why they are better than any subwoofer at 3 times the price.

My overall opinion is that the RSL "Speedwoofer" is an extremely capable sub at a very reasonable price, and can hold its own in comparison to many subs at much higher price points.

Did they have other subs there to compare it with goodtimes? Thats what I am looking for, what subs does it compare to in performance, output, extension?

As I understand it, speed is based on voltage not cone size. ie 10" isn't any faster than a 12".

I could be wrong though.

Why are tweeters smaller than woofers?

To answer the question ;

"Did they have other subs there to compare it with goodtimes? Thats what I am looking for, what subs does it compare to in performance, output, extension?"

No. There was no direct comparisons in the room. I did go into other rooms and listen to other stereo setups which all sounded very nice and also cost a significant amount more ( quite a bit more ). Let me say that I am by no means highly knowledgeable in the area of "specs", instead I just enjoy the sound and I know what sounds natural and good to me. The Goldenear tower speakers that have built in subs had a great sound. As did the Meridian built in sub towers. The bass from these two speakers sounded great (as it should at the price they sell for). The other stand alone subs that I am comparing the RSL to are subs that I have listened to in friends setups and my own, including one from SVS (older pc ultra), another from Velodyne (I don't recall the model off hand), and an Earthquake Sound Supernova. While all the subs and towers I listened to sound very impressive to me (excluding the Velodyne, it just wasn't my cup of tea) the RSL sub had a very clean sound that was full and tight, but did not jump out at me as a sub in the room that was locatable by ear. I prefer the sound of the RSL over the sound of the Meridian, Velodyne, and Supernova. The Goldenear Tritons sounded great but the listening material made for a tough comparison of the two (RSL and Goldenear). I really like the sound of the SVS sub, but I honestly feel that the RSL blended into the soundstage better than I was ever able to get the SVS to. I believe the RSL performed as good as all the listed subs and better than some. I was of the mind to buy a new SVS cylinder sub, but after hearing the RSL I will be buying two of them instead. I can hardly wait! My best advice to anyone interested in the RSL is buy it and try it out for yourself. With the guarantee they are offering you can't loose, even if you hate it. I hope my opinions have helped, at least a little.

Cheers!

John

If you use the same motor and same construction materials for the cone, a 10" would have less mass than a 12" and would allow for better control of the cone. But, to achieve the same output, you would have to drive the 10 harder increasing distortion at some point. There's always trade-offs.

Thanks for the additional info goodtimes. It would be cool if you could do some a/b comparisons and graphs with your svs and a rsl in your room and let us know what you think.

I agree with ransac on the cone size. I was wondering if Howard meant that out of the driver's they tested, the 10 they chose had better transient response or group delay than 12's they had or they would have needed bigger amp, box... Sounds like they were going for accurate, small package, so wondering how it stacks up in output. Seeing driver's excursion was wondering what levels would one see driver compression/non-linear performance around tuning.

My pleasure! I wish I had more to share.

As far as a/b goes, it will be a while before I get the new subs due to the fact that my lady just gave birth to our beautiful baby daughter . Sooo, I will need to get my budget back in order before I go spending. I will say that during the demo the RSL sub was at a tad bit over half volume and put out plenty of quality bass for music in a 2.1 setting (maybe too much). In the 7.1 Theater setting it was a bit under half volume at first listen (which seemed a tad lower than I would have liked) and then was adjusted to about the same level as the 2.1 setting which was quite nice.

Well.......I guess I did have more to share!

As soon as I get the new sub/subs I will post more.

Cheers!

John

Exactly. I don't think RSL was aiming for SPL to begin with, so it makes sense that it was a tradeoff they would take. Not to mention, they only make bookshelf speakers so it wouldn't be a problem matching up the two. Obviously it would make little sense to match one of these subs to something like a JBL 4722, but it should definitely work in the system it's intended to work in.

I'm really interested in giving these speakers a listen. I wonder if they have a place for people to audition them. Also, are the speakers priced individually or in pairs? If they are priced individually, I'm curious as how they'd match against Ascend Sierras.

It looks like a nice enough sub, but there are plenty of capable subwoofers at the $750 price point...no way will it "equal or exceed any subwoofer at 3 times the price."

$2250 gets you into some major competition.

Howard,

yelnatsch517 linked this thread in my thread about an upcoming Kansas City subwoofer meet. He suggested we should ask if you would be willing to submit a subwoofer for critical testing of both subjective listening and actual measurements. I'll advise you that we already have quite a lineup of competitors. If you are interested in submitting a model for comparison and review, or even attending the meet yourself with your equipment, note that you are more than welcome. You should obviously consider that such a comparison could be very good, ...or bad for business. The results of the comparison will be posted for all to see and each of the dozen or so individuals bringing a sub will hopefully be writing their own subjective reviews of the subs in addition to our SPL, FR chart, and other measurements. From my perspective I don't think anyone would think less of your company for deciding not to attend/submit for review. The environment will not be as controlled as a professional review, yet the results could be considered more accurate to the grass roots folk than a professional review because of so many different sets of ears, and their associated unbiased feedback.

Here is the link to the KC subwoofer meet planning thread (it's short right now - just a couple pages, but as you can see on the first post - there is no shortage of quality subs for comparison)-
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328798

With regard to the new REO Speedwagon subwoofer:

I guess you've been too busy to note that LAVA subs recently introduced a new line. The top-of-the-line 12 inch retails for $335. AVS members may get a 15% discount. When they were first introduced, they had free shipping and free return shipping.

A number of members thought highly of them, even if some didn't keep them.

When we have a professional test, maybe your REO Speedwagon will make the grade.

How do the LAVA subs sound? They look kinda cheap. Have you tried them out? I am curious how the LAVA sub would stack up to the RSL Speedwoofer. I have listened to a few cheapo subs (Jamo, Cerwin Vega, TAD, Yamaha) and and I am not impressed with the quality of bass that comes from them, although they do produce loud bass noise and do fine in a comparable cheapo system.

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments. I will try to reply tomorrow when I have more time.

Howard

somthing tells me that they didn't consider internet direct subs when they made that statement

They should have, considering they sell direct

I just noticed that statement is on their main page so I guess it goes for all of their products: "Sound quality that will equal or exceed any speaker costing 3 times or more."

Very bold claim, considering just how many awesome speakers and subs out there at reasonable price points.

I wish to thank everyone for their interest in our Speedwoofer 10 aka REO Speedwagon'. We've enjoyed all of the comments, even by the skeptics.

To those who are skeptical, we completely understand your hesitation in believing our bold claims. We're the same way when we hear bold claims from others. Perhaps our message is getting misinterpreted. We, by no means, claim to have the only good subwoofer. We've listened to a lot of subwoofers in many different environments. We believe that there are good ones in a variety of price ranges including ours.

We spent almost 3 years designing and tweaking a subwoofer to compete with those that we've heard in the $2,000 price range. But, we know that time and good intentions don't insure success. So, to make sure we were on the right track, we lugged our subwoofer to several audio/video stores in So. California and did numerous comparisons with other subs. We also received positive feedback from those who worked at these stores. The results were encouraging and we then decided to go into production.

There were good comments from Luke Kamp, sputter1, yelnatch517, and ransack about the speed of a 10 woofer vs. a 12. We agree that just by itself a 10 woofer isn't necessarily faster than a 12. Our goals in designing the Speedwoofer were speed (transient response) and accuracy. We wanted a subwoofer that would match the other speakers so seamlessly that it would be virtually impossible to identify that a separate subwoofer was operating or where it was placed in the room. We also wanted the bass to be powerful, but natural. We chose a specific size for the subwoofer cabinet that we felt would conform to most people's space requirements and we felt that our goals for that size could be best achieved with a 10 woofer using our Compression Guide tuning.

It's our goal to offer the best possible value in speakers. Selling direct helps us do this by saving people the profit a dealer normally makes. If you have a chance, we invite you to check out some of the Speedwoofer's parts and features:

http://rslspeakers.com/speedwoofer_1...materials.html

On Sunday, we did a demonstration of our speakers at a meeting of the Los Angeles and Orange County Audio Society. It was held at Evolution Home Theater in Agoura Hills, CA. and was a lot of fun. We were thrilled with the reaction of those who listened.

There was a posting in the forum from GoodTimes who attended the meeting and we really appreciate his comments. He observed that in our 7.1 demo, the sub needed to be turned up a bit. Initially, when I balanced the speakers in receiver setup, I lowered the subwoofer output by 6 db. That's probably why it wound up being turned up, but it had plenty of output. Electronic House said: One thing about the subwooferit's got muscle. Don't crank it up or you'll blow the floor out of your room.

Luke Kamp asked about the max output at 24 Hz, it's about 100 db (close mic)

Other notes:

So far we've had 2 reviews:

http://www.hemagazine.com/node/22402

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...uide_speakers/

A third review is in progress and there will hopefully be more to come.

Again, we fully understand any hesitation. Ultimately, hopefully you'll agree that regardless of what's said, it's how the speakers perform. We want everybody to be happy with our products (and be happy with us even if they choose not to keep them). That's why we back our speakers with a 30 day totally risk-free guaranty. As you probably know, if for any reason, somebody is not thrilled, we refund the full purchase price including shipping both ways.

Seemless blending is a given around here. So is "powerful but natural". Or do you know of any companies selling subs that stick out like a sore thumb, and are powerful but unnatural? We also like to see testing that involves direct comparisons and professionally done measurements.

I will mention that when the LAVA 12 was introduced it received some good word of mouth. Later testing was quite disappointing.

I would like to see the REO Speedwagon tested against the forthcoming SVS PB-12 NSD.

Thanks for the response Howard! I will keep your subwoofer under consideration for others with its size features.

max output at 24 Hz, it's about 100 db (close mic)

Have you seen this list from 2006? It has measurements from 2 meters gp at 20hz. And more competition has grown in the past 5 years.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...36#post9164136

Or the recent $1000 shootout.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1313176

I understand there are trade offs in subwoofer design. Size is not as important as pure performance/dollar ratio to several around here, and I felt your claims to be better than 3 times the cost a bit much. I understand that you took it around to other stores and compared, but have you compared to the internet direct offerings? I figured they would be fair game for your statement since you sell direct as well. Are there any plans for future development of larger cabinet/higher output speakers and subwoofers in the future?

Sorry to be direct in questioning, just looking for how you add up on the internet direct front at a pure performance standpoint. I look forward to following this recently released product and more comparisons and reviews done for it. I am always happy to see more competition in the speaker and subwoofer community and happy you have come to educate us on your product!