New Sub - RSL Speedwoofer 10 - Page 5

You're going to have hard time getting the HT basshead crowd to understand that.

The subwoofer, to them, is to shake walls, the better capable the subwoofer is at doing so, the higher its rating.

I guess you would have to get the sub home to check it out. That's the only true way to know.

Its not a midbass module considering the fact midbass is considered to be between 100-300hz. It is a subwoofer.

I appreciate the all the comments. I agree with Jim that we could get into an endless discussion about how graphs should influence a purchase decision. So we'll just make some final comments.

Depending on the method of measurement, the results will be different. Let's let Jim get his hands on the Speedwoofer and see what he has to say.
As I mentioned above, we came up with our specs based on outdoor measurements. The one in spyboy's post came from a close mic measurement. Then the question is, how was the SVS measured and who supplied it? Also, I don't know how the crossover was set during testing, but our subwoofer absolutely does not roll off above 80 Hz (that would be ridiculous).

The question was raised about what makes our subwoofer worth the price. After all, you can certainly get a 12 woofer in a sub with a great looking response on paper for the same or less. When we designed our sub, our goal was speed. We wanted to have a sub that didn't have the overhang and general sloppyness of the ones we experienced (and we listened to a lot of them). We chose an enclosure size that we felt would be acceptable to most. In that particular size, a 10 gave us the best combination of bass and detail. We could have used a 12 and it wouldn't have cost us much more, but we achieved the best performance with a 10. The fact that it's a 10 shouldn't be the determining factor for the price. Some people will pay more for a REL 10 sub or $2,400 for a JL Audio 10 sub.

So, what makes ours a great deal for the price (other than the sound, which we've covered)? Here are a few items:

1. 375 Watt Analog Class A/B amplifier. This is an honest RMS rating (actually it puts our closer to 400 watts). This amplifier costs considerably more than the Class D amplifiers that are used in the other subs. It also weighs a lot more and we pay for free shipping.

2. Wireless remote control of both volume and crossover frequency. Our customers tell us that this is huge. Different sources sometime require adjusting the sub's output. Who likes to continually get it and walk to the back of their sub? When they do, they are making an adjustment they should be making from their listening position. Our wireless remote sensor is not built into the subwoofer like most. That's because if you place the sub out of sight, the remote won't work. Instead we have a box that has the remote sensor and motorized controls for both frequency and volume. The volume knobs have blue LEDs so you can see the levels from across the room. The box attaches to the sub by a black 6 foot cat 5 cable (included). So you can place the sub anywhere. You just need to be able to see the little box.

3. The enclosure is finished in high gloss black piano. This is very labor intensive. If we chose to use just a wood finish or vinyl, we could have saved a lot. It is internally braced. The enclosure is gorgeous and comes with 2 sets of spikes for both carpet and hard floors.

4. Heavy duty woofer with cast aluminum frame and large magnet structure.

Even though some comparably-priced subwoofers may have some of these features, I haven't seen one that has all of them. In the end, it's the sound that counts. We've been very fortunate to have crossed paths with many audiophiles and satisfied home theater fans who agree with our point of view. The fact that we provide a risk-free guarantee where it costs the customer nothing to try our products (we even pay return shipping) and we don't get returns, to us speaks the loudest.

Thanks for reading all of this.
Howard

Howard when you say "speed" it's a strange adjective. Doesn't a 60hz tone cycle 60 times per second on your sub just like the others! I.E. If yours was faster it might beat at 61 cycles per second for instance. Of course it doesn't though. I guess the message is that first and foremost you aimed for accuracy in your design choices. The "speed" catchphrase always catches me as a bit funny, but I understand the word choice for marketing purposes because it may be an easier adjective to imagine for perspective customers.

Howard: You will have a hard time selling a 10" sub that has a -3db point at 34Hz and also not much high end extension, for $750. There is already a sub with similar performance, if not the same, for $699!

How many people are going to buy one sub for music at $699 or $750 and another sub for HT for $500-600? Most people who buy a sub want it for both HT and music. There are many cheaper options out there that can do both HT and music well. Things like remote for a sub are not all that valuable when the LFE/sub level and crossover can be controlled by the AVR/pre-pro. "Bells & whistles" like that dont have much value. Most people leave the sub crossover at "bypass". Many people use some correction/EQ for the sub (Antimode 8033 or Audyssey). So once they calibrate the sub, they are not going to mess with the volume and crossover on the sub. Also there is already a sub with cast aluminum woofer, SVS SB12 (only 35 lbs) at a lower price and with better performance (has -3db point in the 20's) and also has a higher high end extension.

So how is this 10" sub better than SVS SB12, when the measurements by HT lab show that it may not be. Sure there is no third party review of SVS SB12. SVS really needs to get the SB12 to Audioholics or someone for an elaborate review/measurement.

HSU seems to think a MBM is a bit lower than that but I'll concede that I was being a bit facetious with my POV. But calling it a subwoofer? It's closer to a Bose Bass module! Next we'll be calling Gary Busey one of the great minds of our generation.

Yes its a subwoofer, unless there's another definition of subwoofer, its a subwoofer.

Then so is the Bose Bass Module. IMO, it's a little dinky for that kind of money.

Hi, when you say "speed" in technical terms do you mean lower group delay and/or lower Q?

Could you let us know what is the Q value of the Speedwoofer 10?

I guess you are referring to the XRef 12. Yes I agree. The XRef12 is a sealed sub and probably offers better performance (and no port noise) for less money.

I'll never understand why makers put out subs with limited high end extension. If your room is small enough, you want a sub that has high WAF, it's natural to choose a small sub and pair it with a high quality mini satellite speaker crossed over at 100-140Hz. You could have a great sounding system that "disappears".

SVS could send one to Audioholics. I would love to see how that alleged little miracle box measures up.

It might be a little dinky, but not everyone wants a huge Megalith sub sitting in their living room.

As for the Bose Bass Module, its exactly that. Bose calls it a base module, so its a bass module.

I've highlighted the "high" points of your silly argument. You don't know if the Xref performs better and you don't understand much about economics, marketing or making a profit.

If you're so sure the sub is junk buy one and try it. But at this point your opinion of the sub has already been clouded by your bias.

Most people use the 80hz as the defacto crossover point. You should have book shelf speakers that extend down to 80hz.

For example:

Energy Veritas. Get yourself 4 of them plus the center channel for a nice satellite system.

I guess this may turn out to be yet another expensive sub with limited extension at both the low and high end and the defenders are going to make the same argument that this is more accurate than any other sub of its size/price range. It may be easier to make a sub that is accurate only for a particular range but that is not the kind of value people may look for when they are asked to spend $750.

I will wait till I see an elaborate review/measurement of this and also the SVS SB12. I would also like to see an elaborate review/measurement of the Epik Legend and Rythmik FV12. Then there will not be any need for all the bickering in the sub threads. Just word of mouth doesnt seem to be good enough. It is also better that the same reviewer (Audioholics) does all the reviews so that there will not be any disparities in the measurements.

I am offering an informed opinion that the xref12 will perform better. And I don't even *like* the XRef either, but I'm pretty sure it would make a better buy than this sub.


Huh? why would I buy a sub that doesn't meet my requirements?. I already gave it the benefit of the doubt (I didn't post at all in this thread until now) but the objective measurments show that this sub has crippled performance. Audible port noise, mediocre extension in low and high end for $750? I don't need to buy it when I have all the information I need to make an informed decision. I'm all about WAF and I love a good small sub. This ain't it.

Now who's being silly now?

I have nothing against RSL and I hope they have success with their new lineup. If it was me, I might buy their sats but go elsewhere for my subwooferage. That would be how I would spend my monies

OK I'll stop after this since arguing with an ....... well you get the gist.

Your "informed" opinion is nothing more than repeating some else's "informed" opinion. You have not indicated that you have personally listened to a Xref so how can you make an "informed" opinion?

Since the RSL sub does not meet your requirements and you have no first hand knowledge of either subs you mentioned and do nothing more than quote someone else's opinions- why are you even here?

I am here because I *was* interested in this sub. But the professional reviewers (the ones that did hear the sub and that did measure the sub) provided data that I could base a decision on. Based on their data, the sub falls short of the objective standards that others have set the bar at. That is based on my evaluation of what's available on the market. And I am here to express that opinion, isn't that what forums are for? After all, this is not the "praise RSL subwoofer fanboy thread", it's a thread we can discuss the relative merits of sub performance and value. Show me some measurements that contradict the previous data and I will gladly rescind my initial assessment

You don't really get it, I just tell it like it is. I have an open mind but if I find out a sub falls short, I won't hold back. No sub is perfect, and I understand that every sub is a compromise, but I think this sub makes has some flaws that should not be overlooked compared to many others in its price range.

If anything, manufacturers should take these forums as valuable feedback and improve their designs next time. I know many sub makers do take into account feedback found on this forum and others. This thread should be no different.

Cleaned up the thread a little. Next one who takes a jab at someone gets a vacation from AVS.

A subwoofer, just like speakers, is a piece of audio gear. The primary function of audio gear is to produce sound or sounds. Sound is about hearing and listening, you just can't get around that fact. Human beings use their ears to hear and expirience sounds. You have to hear it to know, that is why reviewers that measure subs also listen/hear to them with real world content and not just provide measurements alone.

If the RSL is not for you, I don't even understand posting. I don't even post in Seaton Submersive or Captivator threads because those subs are not for me, not because they are not good subs, they're just too big and they do represent overkill for my applications. If I went into those threads telling them how those subs were overkill the people that own them will become offended, it doesn't matter if I was right or wrong.

I would like to see an Audioholics review, not just their measurements, but how SB12 performs on actual content as well.

I would love to see this as well. Though if SVS's track record is any indication, it will perform quite close to their own specs. Subjectively it performs quite well for such a small sub.

I would love to hear the speedwoofer myself as well as see an audioholics review. Perhaps then it will stop all this bickering.

It would only start "new" bickering over the test results.

So true! Gotta love AVS

If any of you can attend the T.H.E. Show Newport on June 1-3, you'll get to hear all of the RSL Speakers including the Speedwoofer 10. If not, look for Jim Wilson's post about it in the summer.

Howard, how about working on a review by Josh Ricci who is considered the standard bearer of subwoofer reviewers by many experienced subwoofer users/buyers/DIY'ers on this Forum? I understand that getting Josh/Audioholics to agree to the test may not be easy, but you have made such arrangements with Sound&Vision and hometheater.

A review by Josh would be a perfect counterpoint to a review by Jim Wilson.

Who are you to say they would run counter?

Maybe augment or flesh out might be better terms? Ricci's measurements are pretty exhaustive.

Coming from you I would say so. From him? Not so much.

Personally I would love to test one of the same units Josh does, just to satisfy my own curiosity. We've exchanged a few emails about reviewing subs. He seems to be a real nice guy.