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New Sub - RSL Speedwoofer 10 - Page 4

post #91 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslspeakers View Post

To us, the whole point is the quality of the bass. Anybody can design a subwoofer that goes low. It's all about the detail in the bass. Can you detect a separate sub or does it blend perfectly? Does the bass sound as if it's coming from the satellites and not a separate box? That's the bottom line. We really appreciate those of you who have that point of view.

Low and detail aren't mutual exclusive. At your price point you're nipping at the heels of subs that can do just that very thing.
post #92 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Why should a professional speaker company send you a review unit when you state up front you have no measuring equipment to perform objective measurements?

Why? Because I asked. If Howard decides there's value in my proposal then I'll get a unit to examine. What more do I need? Objective measurements alone do not make a review. Those have already been done, why do the same thing over again? My perspective is completely different.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Having the capacity to be eloquent with your subjective opinions is a function quite a few of us could perform. To provide accurate and unbiased objective measurements limits the qualified review nominees significantly more for a legitimate reason...

Charts and graphs alone don't make it an unbiased or qualified review. Suppose the person doing the measurements has no clue about how best to do it? What happens if the numbers detail that another subwoofer is better then the reviewers favorite one? Would that still mean he could be unbiased, or would the numbers get "adjusted" somehow? I'm not calling you, or any of the other testers out, I'm just saying objectivity is not always objective.

There's no way of determining which type of review would be more legitimate - that's simply a matter of preference. Not everyone can, or even wants to, see a bunch of sterile data, often in a format that's indecipherable to anyone not intimately familiar with the engineering aspect. I don't provide that, my contribution is almost entirely with words. Anyone can read and interpret those.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

An Omnimic is $300. It would seem a personality who has decided to use his gift in prose to break into semi-professional product reviews should arm himself with the ability to objectively provide accurate scientific feedback in addition to the subjective feedback?

I'm neither a "personality" (whatever that was supposed to mean) or a semi-professional. The latter I'm not even attempting to be. I'm simply a guy that offered up his time to do a subjective analysis for Howard. Nothing more, nothing less. The post were I made my offer was quite clear that it would not be objective, and that I wasn't an expert. My contribution should be considered in that light.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

I too invited Howard and his speedwoofer to the KC subwoofer meet. Unfortunately he had legitimate other activities that weekend as well (as a smaller business owner and operator that is understandable). In my opinion, with a quality product, a 'shootout' of sorts would be the best way to market your product. Standing superior to other products based on group vote in the same room, on the same equipment, on the same day speaks volumes ---- positively or negatively.

Is this perhaps the underlying reason for your post? You fear I'd get a unit and you wouldn't? I'm not attempting to step on anyone's toes, nor is my perspective that of a rivalry. I would love to do the review for RSL, but if Howard decides otherwise then so be it. If you end up getting one for your shootout that's fine by me too - no hard feelings on my part. I'm not attempting to create any sort of competition, I was merely offering my time and experience, so no worries there.
post #93 of 223
^^^^ you would make a good power cable review guy I think.
post #94 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

^^^^ you would make a good power cable review guy I think.

I suspect I would be far better at it -- or anything, for that matter -- then you are at comedy.
post #95 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post


I suspect I would be far better at it -- or anything, for that matter -- then you are at comedy.

The only thing funny in this thread is that you really believe in what your saying.
post #96 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

^^^^ you would make a good power cable review guy I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson View Post

I suspect I would be far better at it -- or anything, for that matter -- then you are at comedy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

The only thing funny in this thread is that you really believe in what your saying.

And the hits just keep on coming!
post #97 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

The only thing funny in this thread is that you really believe in what your saying.

Funnier then your pomposity? Not by a long shot...
post #98 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskerOmaha View Post

And the hits just keep on coming!

You're absolutely right; my comments were merely replies to someone else's sarcasm and unwarranted aggression, but the thread is now veering of course because of him. I'll refrain from being drawn into his lair any more.

Howard, my original offer to you is still valid, but I'm going to unsubscribed from your thread so it's no longer polluted because of his nonsense. If you wish to avail yourself please feel free to PM me.
post #99 of 223
New review-
http://www.hometheater.com/content/r...speaker-system

Conclusion-
"Under our recently revised ratings system, a product can achieve a five-star performance rating only if it is “reference” quality. This speaker system handily qualifies: Indeed, I used it as my reference system while I reviewed new high-resolution multichannel disc releases from Pink Floyd and King Crimson. It got the best out of everything I used to audition it. Wow, wow, and wow again."
post #100 of 223
Anyone on here actually tested the RSL Subs yet?
Last thing I read was both JimWilson and Archaea tried to get there hands on it for a test drive, but no DICE.

Been over 6-months since the last ending post on this thread.

I would like to read any feedback if someone on here owns one, tested one or returned one or two

Thanks
post #101 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift View Post

Been over 6-months since the last ending post on this tread.

Because there are many options in the $500-700 range that are better value for the money. A 10" sub at $750 doesn't interest many people.
post #102 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shift View Post

Anyone on here actually tested the RSL Subs yet?
Last thing I read was both JimWilson and Archaea tried to get there hands on it for a test drive, but no DICE.

Been over 6-months since the last ending post on this tread.

I would like to read any feedback if someone on here owns one, tested one or returned one or two

Thanks

The probem with the RSL sub is port noise between 20-40Hz. Once you know port noise is a problem how do you put it out of your mind?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...ystem?page=0,3

"I measured the output of the Speedwoofer 10 using the CEA 2010 method. Measurements were made on the ground at 2 meters; 6 db was added to the results to approximate measurements at 1 meter. The Speedwoofer 10 is fairly powerful for a modestly sized 10 inch sub, delivering an average of 108.0 db from 20-31.5Hz and 117.9 db from 40 to 63Hz. Max output is 119.7 db at 63Hz. Output drops dramatically below 25 Hz, but it's still usable at 20Hz, where it hits 101.2 db. However, the noise from the front slot port is high at all frequencies from 20 to 40Hz. CEA 2010 test tones are particularly revealing of port noise, though, and I expect this noise will seldom be noticeable with most program material."
post #103 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

The probem with the RSL sub is port noise between 20-40Hz. Once you know port noise is a problem how do you put it out of your mind?

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...ystem?page=0,3

"I measured the output of the Speedwoofer 10 using the CEA 2010 method. Measurements were made on the ground at 2 meters; 6 db was added to the results to approximate measurements at 1 meter. The Speedwoofer 10 is fairly powerful for a modestly sized 10 inch sub, delivering an average of 108.0 db from 20-31.5Hz and 117.9 db from 40 to 63Hz. Max output is 119.7 db at 63Hz. Output drops dramatically below 25 Hz, but it's still usable at 20Hz, where it hits 101.2 db. However, the noise from the front slot port is high at all frequencies from 20 to 40Hz. CEA 2010 test tones are particularly revealing of port noise, though, and I expect this noise will seldom be noticeable with most program material."

You may also have noted that the port noise wasn't an issue during ANY actual listening. Making it a non issue in the real world.

I guess if your idea of a good time is listening to test tones or sine waves then maybe this sub wouldn't be for you.
post #104 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

Because there are many options in the $500-700 range that are better value for the money. A 10" sub at $750 doesn't interest many people.

Define value.
post #105 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

You may also have noted that the port noise wasn't an issue during ANY actual listening. Making it a non issue in the real world.

I guess if your idea of a good time is listening to test tones or sine waves then maybe this sub wouldn't be for you.

When Brent Butterworth says "I expect this noise will seldom be noticeable with most program material, source material like WOTW and others could produce audible port noise.

Brent obviously thought that a caveat was necessary.

Also, the half-power point is 30Hz, not very impressive.

The measurements in HomeTheater for the sub are even worse than those made by Brent Butterworth for Sound&Vision:

Half power point is 34Hz, and the 6db down point is 30Hz...

At this price point the SVS PB-12 NSD or the HSU VTF-3MK4 are better choices, IMHO.
post #106 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Define value.

Do you mean to say it's a value for that price?
post #107 of 223
I already said "better value for the money". In other words "bang for the buck"
post #108 of 223
We appreciate the renewed interest in the Speedwoofer. I'll try to quickly address some of the comments.

We would like to have Jim listen to the sub. However, as a small company, we have only a few review samples. Right now they are out. We've been promised them back by the end of June, but it seems like there's delays. I asked Jim to phone me so we can discuss it further. I hope we get some back sooner, because we'll need them for the T.H.E. Show in Newport Beach at the beginning of June (if any of you can make it, please drop by, we'd like to meet you).

As far as comments from people who have returned them, we started selling our current speaker line in January of 2011. Since that time, it's been 18 months and so far, we've only had 2 subwoofer returns. One was a person who returned a 5.1 system with the sub. His exact reason: I'm a Jenifer Lopez fan and I didn't like the way she sounded on the music streaming service over my cable TV.

The second was for a person who bought a 5.1 system. He decided to keep the satellites and that he could save money by using his brother-in-law's $300 Polk subwoofer.

When we designed to Speedwoofer, our goal was not just to achieve low end frequency response and power, but to do it with more detail then what we heard was available. We're basically audiophiles and didn't want to sacrifice clarity in the interest of merely shaking the walls (even though Grant Clauser in Electronic House wrote, don't crank it up or you'll blow your floor out.) For those who are primarily interested in bass quantity alone, we agree that there may be a better choice. For those who want the best combination of detail and power, we honestly think we have the best value going.

Several of our subwoofer customers have purchased the Speedwoofer to go with their electrostatic speakers and as most of you know, that's a difficult match. Here's an honest review from one person:

I have owned many high end subs over the years, and stumbling on the RSL Sub was the best thing that ever happened! I have almost given up on trying to match subs with just about any speaker as getting it to blend was always difficult to get right. Now on my quest to find a sub to go with my Maggie 1.7's I bought and sold two other subwoofers I recently purchased with no real luck in blending with the 1.7.s I could always tell there was a sub in the mix muddying up the sound. When I got the RSL sub I was shocked at how well it blended with the 1.7's. I almost thought something was wrong with it because it was not booming & drawing attention to itself like my other subs. But I soon realized it was just so fast, I could not hear it mucking up the sound. Just vibrant, fast & articulate sound. Exactly what the Maggies needed!

Now, I have since sold the Maggies and bought the ultimate test for the sub...A pair of Martin Logan CLS. The original full electrostat speaker, and I am happy to say the sub again is a perfect match. If it had not been (with either speaker) believe me I would have sent it back since RSL offers a no brainer money back guarantee.

A buddy of mine always tries to convince me to keep a good sub around as I go through speakers, but I always ended up selling them simply because I was not happy enough with them to keep em.

Well' I passed my 30 day return, and the only thing RSL will get from me is probably a check for another Speedwoofer. But, I am not sure I will need another one as one is enough. This is a fantastic sub, and even though it is a "music first" sub, it does a great job on movies as well. A true Keeper!!!
Also, I do not wish to mention the other sub brands I have owned, but every one of them was more expensive than the RSL. They all ranged between $995-$3500.

Bobby from Texas

Lastly, I don't know how the magazines measured the Speedwoofer, but we did our outdoors with different results. Also, honestly not one customer has ever mentioned the issue of port noise.

Thanks for reading this lengthy post.

Howard
post #109 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

Do you mean to say it's a value for that price?

As Howard posted above, there are other qualities besides output to consider, whether those qualities have value is a personal decision.

Just as a Rythmik FV15HP is a "better value for the money" than a Seaton Submersive doesn't make the Seaton a bad value. The Seaton obviously has other qualities that depending on personal preference may justify the extra $1000.
post #110 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

As Howard posted above, there are other qualities besides output to consider, whether those qualities have value is a personal decision.

Amen to that - I couldn't have said it better myself!

Howard and I did speak. He's a very engaging and personable guy, who just happens to be an audiophile first (and that's just fine by me). We're working out the details so that I can get a SpeedWoofer 10, CG24 and some CG4's towards the end of June.

And since it seems as though this is yet again another thread that's about to be destroyed by a steady streaming of bickering... how about we just keep it civil and on topic? That would be a nice change.
post #111 of 223
I just wanted to add that I really enjoyed my conversation with Jim. I think he really 'gets it.' We would not only be comfortable with his reviewing our products, but we are enthusiastic about it. We will try to make this happen as soon as possible.

Howard
post #112 of 223
Very cool! I am glad to see some more interest here. I look forward to hearing Jim's review. I heard the Speed Woofer, CG4's, and CG24's at a demo last year. They all sounded very nice, even with all of the other much, much more expensive and acclaimed gear that was surrounding them. The sub was very clean sounding and did blend well, without drawing your attention to its position. Some day I will have a job again and buy a couple of them!
post #113 of 223
Even with the glowing verbiage, the measuring tells its own story. Here is the frequency response of the Speedwoofer: The subwoofer is the blue line in the graph, (the left-most trace):

[IMG][IMG]

As with all too many subwoofers, peak output is at 60Hz and is down 6 db at 30hz, and down 24 db at 20 Hz.

For comparison, here is the response of the SVS PB-12NSD:





The PB-12NSD measured +/- 3db from 18hz to 150hz.

What comes into play here is what is called "bandwith uniformity" which is how uniform the bass is from the ultra low bass to the high mid-bass. The PB-12NSD delivers near perfect bandwith uniformity, something the Speedwoofer clearly does not do.
post #114 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

What comes into play here is what is called "bandwith uniformity" which is how uniform the bass is from the ultra low bass to the high mid-bass. The PB-12NSD delivers near perfect bandwith uniformity, something the Speedwoofer clearly does not do.

So. If I listened to graphs and charts that would be great. But I listen to real stuff in a real room which is different than yours so while graphs that look nice are great PR it doesn't necessarily correlate to in room sound.

Plus going flat to 200hz for a sub is all well and good except no one I know would ever cross over that high.

It's all about matching the components to suite the needs of the listener. As a system the RSL seems to work very well based on the professional reviews.
post #115 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

So. If I listened to graphs and charts that would be great. But I listen to real stuff in a real room which is different than yours so while graphs that look nice are great PR it doesn't necessarily correlate to in room sound.

Plus going flat to 200hz for a sub is all well and good except no one I know would ever cross over that high.

It's all about matching the components to suite the needs of the listener. As a system the RSL seems to work very well based on the professional reviews.

I feel you're missing the point. Graphs can tell you what kind of response to expect. There are a number of subs that measure much better in that price range.
They were touting 'speed' vs driver size which is a myth. They made some other ad claims that I believe they changed.
Nobody said (I don't think) that it didn't work well. From the posted graph it's not cutting it for the price compared to others on the market. It's showing a limited bandwidth which could account for listeners thinking it's more accurate.

Folks that use bookshelf speakers tend to crossover higher than the common 80hz.
post #116 of 223
Yeah there are people with small speakers who like to cross over as high as 120. I have larger speakers but I still set crossover at 100 or 120 some times. Why? because I have the Antimode 8033 which can EQ up to 144Hz. So I like to set the crossover high for music. I have the sub in the middle and I am the only listener. Any localization, if present, is not an issue for me.

Just curious. Why does a 10" sub cost $750? What is so special about this sub that others in the $500-700 price range don't have? Pretty much every sub manufacturer claims that their subs are more accurate than the rest and are the best in the market.
post #117 of 223
That is from the HT mag review. Doesn't look like a $750 performance. Am I making a wrong interpretation of those measurements?

"The Speedwoofer 10's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower -3-dB point is at 34 Hz and the -6-dB point is at 30 Hz. The upper -3-dB point is at 103 Hz using the LFE input.MJP"
post #118 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by sputter1 View Post

I feel you're missing the point. Graphs can tell you what kind of response to expect. There are a number of subs that measure much better in that price range.

I would contend that Kini62 and I feel that same about you and spyboy; you're missing the point. Graphs and charts are fine, and should be one of the tools used when determining what to purchase, but they're absolutely not the only thing. There's far more to what appeals individually then any algorithm could ever possibly hope to achieve.

But this is an old and tired argument, one that's never been -- and never will be -- resolved by going back and forth saying the exact same things over and over again. It's time to let it rest; you keep believing what you consider to be the best and we'll do the same. There's simply no value in this garbage. Let's try and keep the noise pollution out of at least a few threads.
post #119 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post

That is from the HT mag review. Doesn't look like a $750 performance. Am I making a wrong interpretation of those measurements?

"The Speedwoofer 10's close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower -3-dB point is at 34 Hz and the -6-dB point is at 30 Hz. The upper -3-dB point is at 103 Hz using the LFE input.MJP"

Don't numbers like that suggest it's more of a MBM rather than a subwoofer?
post #120 of 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Don't numbers like that suggest it's more of a MBM rather than a subwoofer?

That or more of a music type sub.
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