or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Other Areas of Interest › What's Your System Configuration › BrolicBeast's Living Room Theater
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

BrolicBeast's Living Room Theater - Page 95

post #2821 of 3162
Craig, thanks for the link. Can't wait to get home on Wednesday and try it out.

Quite a while back, I had full range speakers and was testing crossovers and the concept of stereo bass for music and discovered that I needed to use crossovers below 80Hz to eliminate localizing the subs. My subs were both on the right side of the room and after testing some scenes that had rumbling that panned through the speakers, I discovered that I could tell whether the crossover was at 80Hz or higher, or 40Hz, based on the directions the bass emanated from.

With the 80Hz crossover, I could hear the higher frequencies of the rumble panning, but the deeper frequencies came from the right side (where my subs were), and the deepest frequencies seemed to be everywhere.

When I lowered the XO to 40Hz, I felt all the bass frequencies panning, except for the deepest frequencies which seemed to have no localizable source. I played these scenes about 90-120 times while switching back and forth and trying different crossovers. I ended up settling on 60Hz.

Note that there's a difference between localizing 80Hz and below, vs localizing subs with an 80Hz crossover. The LPF isn't a brick wall. An 80Hz LPF in the crossover means content at 160Hz is -24db. I don't know if it's possible that I'm picking up some of these lower level but localizable frequencies with the 80Hz XO.

In addition, I'm not sure if I'm localizing by hearing, or feeling. One of the things I noted was that with the lower XO, the panning rumble had a similar sensation to something big (like a semi) passing close by. The higher XO did not create the sensation. I heard the sound pan past, but the bass was coming from the right side.

After I discovered this with the demo, I found that I could locate hidden subs at a club I was in from this same phenomenon. I walked past the overhead speakers and thought, "I don't see the subs", and realized I could feel them. I could feel that the 'thump' was coming from over 'there', and when I went looking in the direction of 'the thump', I found the subs neatly concealed behind screens.


Max
post #2822 of 3162
Max (and Matt): I think I understand what you are saying. I was demoing my system for someone and was trying to demo the sound of two subs versus four and I used to the two on the right side of the room (one in front and one in back).

Neither of us could HEAR the subs but we could both tell they were on the right on some scenes as that is the direction from which the pressure wave was launched. When I used the front sub on the right and the rear on the left, the problem disappeared. For normal music listening, this was not as obvious. When I have had both subs in front operating and none in the rear, sub localization was not possible.

The solution: just make sure you don't put all subs on one side of the room. Even two on one side and one on the other will keep this from occurring.
post #2823 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mankite View Post

When I spent time with the Anthem P5 amp vs the BAT VK-6200 while demoing a full Aerial system it was night and day difference. The P5 had more power but the BAT eliminated all sibilance and controlled the midrange to the point that the P5 sounded muddy in comparison. Power output is not the only thing that's important when settling on an amp. Dmark1 can comment on this as the EAD amps are among the best I've ever heard.

Thanks Derek, I've been very happy with my EAD PowerMaster 7300 amp. It is just a shame that Enlightened Audio Designs went out of business back in 2005. They built some fantastic gear that was both beautiful, and very much ahead of its time.

The only amp that I've heard that sounded better than my PM7300 were Coda Technologies* CX Monoblocks (900 WPC @ 4 Ohms). The Coda was very slightly more open/extended in the treble, the mids were indistinguishable between the two amps, but the Coda beat the EAD by a good margin in the bass. (bigger power supply, and higher damping factor, I suspect). The Coda CX Monoblocks brought out absolutely rock-solid and tuneful bass from my Legacy Audio Focus SEs. The PM7300 is no slouch in the bass, but the Coda was on another level there. Too bad the Codas retail for $6,000 EACH channel.... :-)

* For those that may not be aware, Coda Technologies was founded in 1985 by most of the R&D staff from Threshold Audio (minus Nelson Pass, of course). Coda's products are built like tanks, sound fantastic from top to bottom, and carry a solid ten year warranty. (No, I am not a dealer for them. But after hearing them, I highly respect their products). :-) Through the years, Coda has built Legacy's branded amps and preamps, including the discontinued, but excellent Legacy MonoBloc Amp (800 WPC @ 4 ohms)
Edited by DMark1 - 11/26/13 at 12:03pm
post #2824 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

With the 80Hz crossover, I could hear the higher frequencies of the rumble panning, but the deeper frequencies came from the right side (where my subs were), and the deepest frequencies seemed to be everywhere.

When I lowered the XO to 40Hz, I felt all the bass frequencies panning, except for the deepest frequencies which seemed to have no localizable source. I played these scenes about 90-120 times while switching back and forth and trying different crossovers. I ended up settling on 60Hz.

Note that there's a difference between localizing 80Hz and below, vs localizing subs with an 80Hz crossover. The LPF isn't a brick wall. An 80Hz LPF in the crossover means content at 160Hz is -24db. I don't know if it's possible that I'm picking up some of these lower level but localizable frequencies with the 80Hz XO.

In addition, I'm not sure if I'm localizing by hearing, or feeling. One of the things I noted was that with the lower XO, the panning rumble had a similar sensation to something big (like a semi) passing close by. The higher XO did not create the sensation. I heard the sound pan past, but the bass was coming from the right side.

Max

Great observations, Max. This is the same phenomenon I experienced in my own room, with a single sub on te left side of the room. Above a XO point of about 60 Hz, I felt I could localize bass coming from the left side of the room. I don't think I was actually "hearing" it, but more like I could feel the pressure wave eminating from the sub's location. Setting the XO at 60 Hz helped anchor the bass to the front speakers, which was much more believable and realistic-sounding. My full range Legacy Audio Focus SE speakers were more than happy to handle the lower XO point.

But now, I am planning to add a second subwoofer to the opposite side of the room to help even out those effects, help improve the frequency response, and give me another 3 dB of overall sub output. We'll see if I end up raising the XO to 80 Hz once that happens... I will have to take more measurements and do a lot of listening to see what sounds the best.
post #2825 of 3162
Thread Starter 
IRule is evil. I just had to share this. **pulls hair out**
post #2826 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

IRule is evil. I just had to share this. **pulls hair out**

Four hours later: iRule is AWESOME!!!  Not only do I have "swipe" control of JRiver; I embedded the Gizmo app into Jriver itself as a remote page.  I can't express how awesome this is--and I haven't even started exploring the Sonos module....let alone toe customized Theta Casablance codes I downloaded.  I can't believe I haven't done this before......but it's not easy road.

post #2827 of 3162
I'm currently underway with iRule as well, it's incredibly frustrating but rewarding at the same time. Getting feedback from the equipment makes tablet control much easier, especially when the equipment isn't in line of site. I've got everything but my projector working, once I get that figured out I will move on to lighting control.
post #2828 of 3162
Happy Thanksgiving
post #2829 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Done Deal DR View Post

I'm currently underway with iRule as well, it's incredibly frustrating but rewarding at the same time. Getting feedback from the equipment makes tablet control much easier, especially when the equipment isn't in line of site. I've got everything but my projector working, once I get that figured out I will move on to lighting control.

Hey there 3DR, how do you set up feedback in iRule? I have the RS-232 dongle coming in the mail...I'd like to correspond buttons the appropriate feedback. Ah, the projector...it
might be easier to use the ip power relays (or the ip-ir dongle) to have it turn on and off, as opposed to RS-232.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff4RFC View Post

Happy Thanksgiving

Thanks very much! Happy Thanksgiving to you too buddy!
post #2830 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Happy Thanksgiving to all my brothers and sisters in the U.S. May the storytelling of fathers, mothers, uncles, and grandpas sooth our ears; may our laughter reach reference-level volume. smile.gif
post #2831 of 3162
Happy Thanksgiving!
post #2832 of 3162
Happy Thanksgiving folks!!

Matt,

are you looking ot replace your old mighty Harmony for the grace of the Irule??eek.gif
post #2833 of 3162
Happy Thanks Giving Guys Hope you invite your families to your homes to show them your awesome audio set up. I know i will hahahhah
post #2834 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Happy Thanksgiving to all my brothers and sisters in the U.S. May the storytelling of fathers, mothers, uncles, and grandpas sooth our ears; may our laughter reach reference-level volume. smile.gif

Thank you Happy thanksgiving
post #2835 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Hey there 3DR, how do you set up feedback in iRule? I have the RS-232 dongle coming in the mail...I'd like to correspond buttons the appropriate feedback. Ah, the projector...it
might be easier to use the ip power relays (or the ip-ir dongle) to have it turn on and off, as opposed to RS-232.

I have an IR itach and 2 RS-232 itach's, the problem is you can only get feedback with serial/rs232 or IP control so I prefer to use that. To get the feedback is a few step process, basically first you need to program query codes for each feedback you want in the Entrance, set to repeatable and to repeat about every 10-15 seconds, then you apply the feedback on the screen as you would a button or likewise, only difference being that this is from the feedback tab on the right. You also need to assign the feedback to the correct device too.

Reading all that over, you're probably best off to look it up on iRule's support pages like I did. That was a jumbled mess up there. biggrin.gif

Happy Thanksgiving!
post #2836 of 3162
Hey Matt, check your PM Please biggrin.gif.
post #2837 of 3162
Thread Starter 

Since my true HTPC has died, I've had to improvise with a regular Best-Buy grade tower that I've had lying around.  I had to scavenge the HTPC for the SATA Cables, but to my surprise, there were actually enough ports on the small PC's Mother Board to handle all my hard drives (stuffed in there unceremoniously.  The original optical drive couldn't be removed without removing the power supply, so I had to improvise.

 

Behold, my new ripping station!  All the high-tech wizardry of 1992 here in one place folks! ;):

post #2838 of 3162
So that will be a stand in until you get the other one you linked to several pages back? Or are you thinking of a different system to use as a HTPC.
post #2839 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post

So that will be a stand in until you get the other one you linked to several pages back? Or are you thinking of a different system to use as a HTPC.

Yes sir, it most certainly shall be the stand-in for quite some time.  It's actually quite functional, and oddly enough, the built-in HDMI port on the MoBo can handle 192/24, while the HDMI output from my HTPC could only handle 96/24.  But alas, there are too many competing priorities at the moment for me to invest in the robust HTPC I need,, but once the amps, subs, surrounds, and this wedding are out of the way, the HTPC update is next.  Right now, the main focus is programming iRule, which I've pretty much tuned to near-perfection (waiting on RS-232 dongles to arrive so I can work on programming two-way feedback).  It's leagues better than the Harmony Remote, which I now only consider as a necessity for individual device control for setup purposes.  The original learning curve is a bit steep, but dude--after about two hours, I began reaping benefits that I haven't reaped in my eight years of using Harmony products.  It's actually easier to program complex systems with iRule.

post #2840 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Yes sir, it most certainly shall be the stand-in for quite some time.  It's actually quite functional, and oddly enough, the built-in HDMI port on the MoBo can handle 192/24, while the HDMI output from my HTPC could only handle 96/24.  But alas, there are too many competing priorities at the moment for me to invest in the robust HTPC I need,, but once the amps, subs, surrounds, and this wedding are out of the way, the HTPC update is next.  Right now, the main focus is programming iRule, which I've pretty much tuned to near-perfection (waiting on RS-232 dongles to arrive so I can work on programming two-way feedback).  It's leagues better than the Harmony Remote, which I now only consider as a necessity for individual device control for setup purposes.  The original learning curve is a bit steep, but dude--after about two hours, I began reaping benefits that I haven't reaped in my eight years of using Harmony products.  It's actually easier to program complex systems with iRule.
That's cool. As long as it does what you need it to do. I guess iRule is an Apple program? When I got my server I also got a small Samsung Galaxy tablet. I have Touch Squid and the app Gizmo that allows me access to the stuff on Jriver. Now honestly, I am using the other remotes right now because it is just easier as I rip stuff, but I will go and use the tablet as well, The Touch Squid is what lets me choose inputs and change the volume. It is cool and I should use it more then I do. But good luck on the rest of your stuff.
post #2841 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIkeDuke View Post


That's cool. As long as it does what you need it to do. I guess iRule is an Apple program? When I got my server I also got a small Samsung Galaxy tablet. I have Touch Squid and the app Gizmo that allows me access to the stuff on Jriver. Now honestly, I am using the other remotes right now because it is just easier as I rip stuff, but I will go and use the tablet as well, The Touch Squid is what lets me choose inputs and change the volume. It is cool and I should use it more then I do. But good luck on the rest of your stuff.

iRule works on both apple and android devices.  I'm very familiar with Gizmo.....as a matter of fact, for Jriver, I've embedded Gizmo into the iRule "Beast Server" control page.  So, when I hold my tablet in landscape mode, I have my regular JRiver control scheme (which is swipe-based so I don't need to look at the screen), but when i turn the tablet into portrait mode, WebGizmo automatically loads onto the screen and replaces the Jriver control scheme with zero delay :-)  I've got to shoot a video on this, as it's an absolutely amazing control experience.  iRule has a free 30 day trial, so if you every think you want to try it out, let me know; you can download the app onto your Samsung Galaxy tablet, and I'll program the remote for you using their web-based program (which is great, since i can program on any device with ia mouse and keyboard.

post #2842 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

iRule works on both apple and android devices.  I'm very familiar with Gizmo.....as a matter of fact, for Jriver, I've embedded Gizmo into the iRule "Beast Server" control page.  So, when I hold my tablet in landscape mode, I have my regular JRiver control scheme (which is swipe-based so I don't need to look at the screen), but when i turn the tablet into portrait mode, WebGizmo automatically loads onto the screen and replaces the Jriver control scheme with zero delay :-)  I've got to shoot a video on this, as it's an absolutely amazing control experience.  iRule has a free 30 day trial, so if you every think you want to try it out, let me know; you can download the app onto your Samsung Galaxy tablet, and I'll program the remote for you using their web-based program (which is great, since i can program on any device with ia mouse and keyboard.
Let me just get into the habit of using the tablet, Then I will see if I want to "upgrade" any of the control features. I still have so much more media to put on my server eek.gif. Doing the backup took time, but I am glad I did it. Having a server is fantastic.
post #2843 of 3162
Matt and Mike:

I believe Touchsquid is similar to iRule, both being programable on a touch tablet. I went with Touchsquid, but to be honest I use my hard remotes most of the time because I know their buttons so well. The Squid was basically set up for the wife and kids to use so they could control the theater easily. I need to go back and re-visit it cause I just have too many remotes lying around!

I may check out iRule again. That embedded Gizmo sounds pretty cool and useful. If I go that route, I may hit you up for help on programming - I Hope that's OK!
post #2844 of 3162
Greetings folks.

Matt,

How are you doing with Irule?? are you going to put your harmony into the corner??biggrin.gif

Quick question about Irule, which gateway are you using, I see above that you're talking about the RS-232 dongle to get the status feedback?

My Pronto is starting to show signs of weakness and an old Ipad 1 that could be recycle to play Universal remote so I migth go down the Irule route only thing stopping me at the moment is the fact you can only have 2 RS-232 ports max when I curently have 4 on the Pronto RFX9600 all being used.
Edited by aldiallo - 12/5/13 at 12:57am
post #2845 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMark1 View Post

Matt and Mike:

I believe Touchsquid is similar to iRule, both being programable on a touch tablet. I went with Touchsquid, but to be honest I use my hard remotes most of the time because I know their buttons so well. The Squid was basically set up for the wife and kids to use so they could control the theater easily. I need to go back and re-visit it cause I just have too many remotes lying around!

I may check out iRule again. That embedded Gizmo sounds pretty cool and useful. If I go that route, I may hit you up for help on programming - I Hope that's OK!

No problem--just let me know when!  It's so awesome to access gizmo just by turning my tablet upward.  It makes me feel like I'm living in the future.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiallo View Post

Greetings folks.

Matt,

How are you doing with Irule?? are you going to put your harmony into the corner??biggrin.gif

Quick question about Irule, which gateway are you using, I see above that you're talking about the RS-232 dongle to get the status feedback?

My Pronto is starting to show signs of weakness and an old Ipad 1 that could be recycle to play Universal remote so I migth go down the Irule route only thing stopping me at the moment is the fact you can only have 2 RS-232 ports max when I curently have 4 on the Pronto RFX9600 all being used.

Greetings Al!  My Harmony remote shall indeed be put in the corner for a permanent nap.  iRule is just that much better!  Ah, the Pronto--a very capable but aging control solution, similar ot my harmonies--especially as our systems grow more complex.  I only need RS-232 for the Theta really for feedback--for all other devices I'm content to control via IR via the network-to-IR itach solution.  Which of your devices are you currently using RS-232 on?  You might be able to cut RS-232 to two of them and replace with IR and not notice any difference.  if iRule didn't give feedback, I would have skipped RS-232 altogether and would have gone with pure network-to-IR, with additional blasters!

post #2846 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post


Greetings Al!  My Harmony remote shall indeed be put in the corner for a permanent nap.  iRule is just that much better!  Ah, the Pronto--a very capable but aging control solution, similar ot my harmonies--especially as our systems grow more complex.  I only need RS-232 for the Theta really for feedback--for all other devices I'm content to control via IR via the network-to-IR itach solution.  Which of your devices are you currently using RS-232 on?  You might be able to cut RS-232 to two of them and replace with IR and not notice any difference.  if iRule didn't give feedback, I would have skipped RS-232 altogether and would have gone with pure network-to-IR, with additional blasters!
Hi Matt,

I'm currently controlling the TV, the Onkyo and the Oppo on RS-232, but I just found out that the Onkyo could be controlled with feedback over IP which actually reduce the number to 2 if I go down the IRule road, if Oppo could provide a firmware supporting control over IP with feedback that would be great; now, by having check the Irule site my understanding is that an extra module is needed for controlling Sonos devices or integra devices, have you tried the Sonos module?
Edited by aldiallo - 12/6/13 at 9:50am
post #2847 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiallo View Post


Hi Mat,

I'm currently controlling the TV, the Onkyo and the Oppo on RS-232, but I just found out that the Onkyo could be controlled with feedback over IP which actually reduce the number to 2 if I go down the IRule road; now, by having check the Irule site my understanding is that an extra module is needed for controlling Sonos devices or integra devices, have you tried the Sonos module?

Ah, sounds like you're all set then if the Onkyo can accept IP control with feedback!!!  The Onkyo module isn't required for ONkyo control--it's just a full control center for onlyo products.  But by itself (and in activities), the Onkyo can be controlled via IP as long as the codes exist in the database (that's how I setup Jriver--full IP control...don't even need my USB IR dongle anymore).  To be honest, the Sonos app is easier to use than the iRule Sonos Module.  It's not iRule's fault though--the limitation is Sonos playback of your owned music library, but not streaming services ( Rhapsody, Pandora, etc.) due to licensing issues.  I don't use the iRule Sonos Module much because of the Rhapsody limitation.

post #2848 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Ah, sounds like you're all set then if the Onkyo can accept IP control with feedback!!!  The Onkyo module isn't required for ONkyo control--it's just a full control center for onlyo products.  But by itself (and in activities), the Onkyo can be controlled via IP as long as the codes exist in the database (that's how I setup Jriver--full IP control...don't even need my USB IR dongle anymore).  To be honest, the Sonos app is easier to use than the iRule Sonos Module.  It's not iRule's fault though--the limitation is Sonos playback of your owned music library, but not streaming services ( Rhapsody, Pandora, etc.) due to licensing issues.  I don't use the iRule Sonos Module much because of the Rhapsody limitation.
What do you mean when you say : it's just a full control center for Onkyo products=, not usre I get it:confused:
post #2849 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiallo View Post

What do you mean when you say : it's just a full control center for Onkyo products=, not usre I get it:confused:

Hey Al, sorry about that. The module is like the Onkyo iPad app, which gives control of many (perhaps most) of the features in the App. But just like the Onkyo can be controlled without the app, it can also be controlled without the module for normal functions like on/off/input select.
post #2850 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrolicBeast View Post

Hey Al, sorry about that. The module is like the Onkyo iPad app, which gives control of many (perhaps most) of the features in the App. But just like the Onkyo can be controlled without the app, it can also be controlled without the module for normal functions like on/off/input select.
Gotcha! smile.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Other Areas of Interest › What's Your System Configuration › BrolicBeast's Living Room Theater