Vapor Audio Cirrus? - Page 7

There was nothing wrong with how those were built, they were damaged in shipping. And as many times as I've tried to get them returned for repair, the owner has yet to take any action. I'd love to make them perfect again, but it's hard to do when they're over 1000 miles away.

Why do certain people feel the need to spread this dispute around? I am very pleased with my pair of Cirrus blacks, they look very nice and sound even better. Thanks Ryan for your service!

Hey Chu, I understand your intent but I really don't want to hash the whole thing out here again. Paul (the customer) made it all very personal with name-calling and attacks. That resulted in my big review thread on Audiogon being deleted, and almost resulted in the same on AudioCircle. Fortunately they pruned out the posts on AC and started another thread, but point is I really don't want Paul coming here and turning my one good discussion thread on AVS Forum into s**t storm and it get delted as well.

All that is relevant at this point regarding the issue is that my last offer on AC to repair the speakers has been ignored, just as the other requests to repair were ignored. My offer of a full refund was also refused because I wanted it to go through an Escrow service. After all the personal attacks this guy has thrown at me for the last 6 months and lies he's posted on the internet, I don't trust him to return the speakers in one piece.

I'm confident I've done everything possible to try and resolve this situation amicably. He's had them for 6 months now so the offer for a full refund is off the table, but I would still gladly repair them at any time.

nevermind.

I guess I should have said built better than mine.

It doesn't shock me that Ryan now claims the speakers were damaged in shipping.

In Ryan's last email he accuses me of further damaging my speakers on purpose to make them look worse than they were and the reason why I ignored his last email about a repair job is due to the fact that he has now hired someone to dig up some personal information on me. He also implied that he has very good computer skills being a high level Unix Admin for 10 years and says he knows more than I think he knows about me and other members from other forums.

Ryan did say he would still repair them but I still can't trust him after these last statements. I have had someone look at the defects and they said there is know way to fix these and make them look perfect or new. The tear/gouge in the left side of the speaker is a repair gone bad already. Pete Schumacher did say in an email that he knew the veneer sheets were flawed and torn but Ryan put the tear on the back of the speaker so it wouldn't be noticed. It sure isn't on the back of the speaker which made me more suspect as what they had in mind in the contingency refund.

The full refund offer would have been great but when the details were made available there were too many contingencies with a possible 3rd party buyer and an escrow service involved and I couldn't get Ryan to acknowledge the tear/gouge in the side of the speaker. Obviously he was hiding this problem from me as he shipped them without disclosing this or the pit mark in the baffle before making the final payment. I asked for pictures before I made the final payment and he conveniently left the side out speaker with gouge out of the photos.

I would have loved to been able to set up an escrow service before purchasing these and would suggest potential buyers to look into this.

We've tried on at least 5 separate times now Paul for you to let us fix them, and time after time you refuse. I'm good, but I can fix speakers that are 1000 miles away.

Instead you make excuses like "I can't trust you". If you wanted at all to get them fixed, they would have been, months ago. You're dragging this out, first on Audiogon and AudioKarma, then on AudioCircle, and now here for one purpose - to hurt me personally as much as you possibly can. Because as I said, if your motive at all was to get them fixed, they would be.

All you have to do is say, "Ok, go ahead and fix them". I'll issue a call tag, UPS will pick them up, and a few weeks later they'll be good as new with all new stands and back in your hands. Pretty simple, and could have saved months of childish bickering.

You've obviously been talking to Paul, if you choose to align yourself with his corner so be it, but don't take the impartial observer stance when you're not.

Listen, I've been through this multiple times now. Paul has no interest in working with me to find a solution, only in dragging things through the mud in public. We just went through all this over on Audio Circle, now I'm supposed to do it all again in public, only to have Paul ignore the essentially mediated conclusion? And of course his name calling and lies/misinformation in the meantime.

There was one tiny divot in the veneer, the only flaw they were shipped with. It was so small it took Paul 3 weeks to even notice. Once in a lifetime veneers like Beeswing Walnut Crotch can have small flaws, it's part of what makes the wood so unique. Paul is ONLY making a big deal out of that 1 tiny irregularity in the wood to try and draw my integrity into suspect.

The stands were damaged in shipping. Not because they were poorly made or packaged, but because things like that happen. That's a problem that could have been easily dealt with.

Paul has lied, misprepresented fact, called me names, made personal threats, and every action you can imagine to make me NOT want to offer him anything at all. I'm under no obligation to do so, he received a custom built to his specifications product under no representation of warranty, period. But still I've tried very hard to come to an amicable resolution, only for him to time and time again spit it in my face. Even STILL, I would return his speakers/stands to 100% new condition no questions asked. But you think I'm going to turn over a refund without security to a man who has repeatedly attacked me personally and lied like he has? That would be incredibly irresponsible of me to do so.

Those bubbles I have good suspiscion were done intentionally by Paul. Unibond 800 in a vacuum press does not fail, ever. And that large bubble looks like a putty knife or similar was stuck in it in an attempt to peel it back, that damage does not just happen on it's own. I know what's possible and what isn't, and things like that large bubble and crack aren't without help. Even still, that all said, and even if Paul did admit to causing that bubble, I WOULD STILL FIX THEM WITHOUT QUESTION! And I know without a doubt that I could repair that damage to a point where you would never be able to find it without a flashlight and your nose 6" away.

So take Paul's side, I guess some people never get enough drama and if you're looking for more in your life, Paul would be a good person to give that too you. But the right course of action is pretty obvious, always has been since 6 months ago when Paul called me and said they were damaged in shipping - let me fix them!
Edited by TurboFC3S - 12/13/12 at 5:36pm

Keep the assumptions and accusations out of the thread, or you will be removed.

K

Guys, I want everyone to take a breather before they post. And when you post, be careful. Everyone has a lot of concerns but there are better ways of presenting them.

Please tread carefully.

K

My opinion:

There is a lot in play here but I have been following Ryan and his products for some time. His speakers are universally praised at audio shows by professional reviewers not only for incredible sound(especially for the money) but also for beautiful fit and finish. And that is not just for one pair of "show" speakers but numerous versions of his entire product line in a variety of finishes.

Because they are a small company building custom, made to order speakers one pair at a time, they wait time can vary and sometimes goes beyond the initial estimate. I would think most customers would be aware of this and be prepared for it. And because they finish speakers in many different exotic veneers I'm guessing the potential for minor flaws is there but other than this one pair, I have not heard of any real major problems other than a small scratch or minor fit flaw. Most seem to be very nicely put together.

I have read many reviews from satisfied customers who love these speakers and feel they got an incredible value for the price. FYI, my only dealings with Ryan up to this point have been one phone call and two emails last summer when I was inquiring about the Breeze model. He was very helpful and forthcoming. I hope to make it to St. Louis this spring to listen to a pair and place an order.

IMO, there has been enough bashing by the customer. With all that is at stake, I would bet anything that the speakers would be properly repaired by Ryan if he was allowed to do so. Despite all of the accusations, the ball is in the customers court and it appears he does not want this to be resolved.

What we don't need is anecdotal individual positive experiences which then gets extrapolated and assumed to be applicable to everyone else and if someone claims to have a negative experience, then the fault must then lie at the feet of the disgruntled customer. I think we've seen enough of that with a couple now defunct but once highly praised and vigorously defended companies. Just because some or even many people have had a great experience, doesn't negate the possibility of someone having a bad experience with the same company.

With that said, in this case, I have no concrete opinion as to who is "right" or who is "wrong" in this case. Or at least, who is more right or more wrong. As in many scenarios, probably some of both. It would be a shame if Vapor Audio is getting their reputation tarnished for little or no reason. On the other hand, I see some possibility for legitimate questioning of how this situation was handled.

What we don't need is anecdotal individual negative experiences which then gets extrapolated and assumed to be applicable to everyone else

You can see it the other way around too.

How the situation was handled is a good place to start.

It started with being told a 3-4 month wait and then waiting 7 months. When the speakers finally arrived the stands came in damaged. Ryan did not acknowledge the issues for a week and ignored issues I had with the ups claiming. He also would not achnowledge the 1.5" tear/gouge that came with the speaker. These speakers were not damaged in shipping as he now claims and the boxes and packing for the speakers were very good. Ryan continued to blame ups for the damaged stands in which he signed a disclaimer for. I called his ups store to find out some details of this suspect transaction and found out that Ryan had lied to me about the transaction between him and ups. I forwarded the details to Ryan about what I knew and he said he would deal with this the next day. A week later he decides to finally email me asking for the UPS status ignoring every email and concern I had prior. I have dealt with this behavior before and things started going down hill fast.

That disclaimer Ryan signed with ups killed the claim according to Nicole who helped Ryan. Ryan would not acknowledge those emails I sent regarding the disclaimer or the defect in the side of the speaker. His whole focus with this matter was filing that claim and he kept coming at me with the claim. Even the voicemail I saved from him has him saying that I just don't want the hassle of filing a ups claim. This was out of my hands and I told him more than once that this was not ups's fault. Ryan completely put the ups issue on my shoulders and not once did he tell me to JUST SHIP THE STANDS BACK TO BE REPLACED and forget about the claiming process. He could have easily called Nicole who he dealt with or Alex and got details like I did but he didn't and had over a week to do so before this went public. I think 10 days had passed. I sent photos to him of the boxes for the stands on July 8th and the shipment came in on June 27th or 28th.

At this point after waiting 7 months for his speakers I was losing my patience and asked him to just pay me back for the stands and we would be done with everything. The stands were $200 each not including the very expensive crossover's that sit in the bottom which were a major concern in shipping again unless properly packed. When the stands broke off the glued on bases, the crossover's became exposed and the wiring that is soldered to crossover's were holding the two pieces together. Ryan ignored the offer which like I said would have resolved all issues. Instead he continued his fight with the claim and put it back on my shoulders. He said he doesn't have a problem building me new stands but wasn't going to forfeit the claim just because I said it wasn't ups's fault. I was just the messanger of what ups was telling me but Ryan didn't care or he would have made that call and fought with them. He would have lost but he could have fought. Either way this was his deal.

I even had ups on there way to pick up the stands the next day or so before knowing all the details and the chances I would be taking with the crossover's possibly suffering damage. These concerns were ignored by Ryan which really irritated the hell out of me. When you see the pics you will be scratching your head in dis belief on why the customer is dealing with this. The stands were only glued together at the base where they broke and there isn't much surface area for the adhesive. Maybe 1" wide on the 4 sides. Just ridiculous that there were zero screws helping hold the two pieces together. Pretty expensive speakers sit on top of these glued together stands.

Moving forward, all of this ended up on Audiogon and that is where the full refund offer finally took place after a heated battle. The full refund offer started out like this below and note that the speakers needed to show up without damage. Ryan just stated earlier that I told him the speakers were damaged in shipping but the offer states ONLY the stands could be damaged and the speakers need to arrive UNDAMAGED. This is a contingency offer that was not looking to good for me. There are no flaws on the back of these speakers either.


On Jul 22, 2012, at 7:10 PM, pete@vaporsound.com wrote:

Hi Paul,

Here's how the buy back would work. Because you ordered a customized pair of speakers, there's no way that a full refund can occur. This is what we propose. We will find a buyer for your speakers. We actually already have a customer in Canada who sounds like he might be interested, knowing that he's going to be getting someone else's custom set, so this could take place fairly soon. After he has sent the money for the speakers, we will put that money in escrow, a mutually agreed upon escrow. You will then send us the speakers and stands, and they must be received by us with no damage other than the stand damage. The speakers and crossover components must be undamaged. When we have received the items, the escrow will release the funds to you. Shipping cost to us is at your expense as would be any insurance you wish to take.

Now, here is something else you might consider. Vapor is going to be raising the price of the Cirrus 20% this fall. That means if you decide to just hang on to it for a couple more months, you might be able to sell it on your own and not lose any money.

Of course, if you do want to hang on to them, we'd be happy to discuss repairing the stand for you.

And please understand Paul, that there was no intention of deception in the veneer flaw you saw. Those sheets of veneer are one of a kind. No more exist. You have the last sheets, and stuff like that doesn't come along very often. They're still my personal favorite of all the veneers that have come through here. Every sheet of that veneer had the same flaw in the same spot. It was use that sheet the way it was, or substitute a much less stunning veneer. Ryan put it on the back to hide the flaw, so that you don't see it when it's set up, not to try and pull one over.

Sincerely,

Pete Schumacher

This really serves no purpose. We get you're angry but either send the speakers back for repair or drop it.

+1

Whoever read my post;
I removed it.
Ryan Scott finally was able to contact me.
He said the System that I ordered are finished
and look Fantastic.
I am looking forward to it.
I will post my opinion once it has arrived.
Hopefully soon.
Edited by Jose Luis Lam - 1/18/13 at 8:43am

He told me the same thing and then shipped defective speakers months later. Good luck!

click for pics www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;album=8587

Notice the butt joint glued on stands that were to hold a 60lb monitor. IMHO the stands are not safe. I had to re-glue and then pilot drill holes to the bottom and add screws.

The stands are easily fixed, if you'd let me. However when UPS tried to inspect and pick the up for a return, you didn't allow them access. Later, when I had UPS issued pre-paid labels for the speakers and stands, you did nothing but post lies on the internet. You've now spent over 6 months complaining to anyone who'll listen, and taken NO action. When you have a pair with veneer that no longer exists, and crossover components that were ordered custom from Demark and took 8 weeks to deliver, it's no possible to build a replacement pair. I need yours back to fix the asthetic issues.

As for the sound, how about your own words in regard to their performance.

So why not send them back and let me make them perfect? Oh, I know ... your standard excuse, you can't trust me.

For any doubters of how they looked when shipped, here are some high res shots of them an hour before being boxed and shipped.







Defective ...

Say what you want. But they are some stunningly beautiful speakers!

You and I have had our disagreements Turbo but let met tell you I really can tell,that you put your all into the manufacture of this product. It is truly top notch craftsmanship from what I can see. The veneer matching is absolutely incredible!

Thanks for the kind words. It's easy making a great sounding speaker. The real work is making a great looking speaker, and to be honest I still struggle with it at times. With woodworking you learn patience, and also that a screw up isn't the end of the world. I truly think that I enjoy the woodworking as much as the listening.

That veneer was/is a once-in-a-lifetime find, my supplier said he'd never seen anything like it in 30+ years of handling veneers. I bought all of it he had, and have built 3 pair with that stuff ... and have enough of it for one more pair, after which it's gone and probably never to be seen again.

Yes, the veneer is very special but there are flaws that are not repairable and Ryan did not disclose the gouge in the left side of the speaker or the pit mark in the baffle which are not fixable. The pics he shows here are pics of "wet" speakers which look vibrant under the sunlight and they showed up still wet and sticky which filled our house with the smell of finishing oil. Once they finally dried they dulled and the bubbles started forming. The bubble on the right side of the speaker wasn't noticed right away because you can't see it from the front. One day I was back behind the speaker and noticed the bubble since it broke open.

The bubbles can be fixed but not to perfection. This veneer can hide a lot of imperfections however. The gouge on the left side of the one speaker has already been filled and repaired by Ryan before shipping.

audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=71084;size=huge

So you're saying that you won't send the speakers back for repair because you don't believe they can be repaired? Even though I've told you numerous times they can be. I've fixed much worse in my last 10 years of veneer work, and would have no problem doing the same with yours. With the vacuum bagger, bubbles are actually quite easy to fix. And the 'gouge' you keep bringing up is visible in the 2nd picture posted above. NO attempt was made in repairing it because it's simply an irregularity in the veneer, which is not unusual to have in highly figured veneers like this.

I simply don't believe that they were still off-gassing when you received them. By the time they got to you the finish was 6 weeks old. Not to mention that your pair had a sister pair built at the same time, moved from step to step at the same points during the build process. It was delivered to Bill O'Connell of Morningstar Audio at AK Fest 2012 a full 3 weeks before yours were shipped (even though finish was applied on both at the exact same time). Not once during the entire AK Fest weekend did anyone notice a smell, and after getting them back home Bill had no similar issue.

Here's a picture of them, look familiar?



For the few people still reading, Paul only wants to have these conversations on public forums. In private emails it's nothing but profanaties and personal insults. As I've said about 10,000 times now across various forums, my only hope is to fix the speakers, make them perfect again and both of us move forward. Paul is determined to drag us through the mud as much as he can get away with. Since these things stay on the internet for years, being brought up in the future for anyone who searches, I have no choice but to respond.

Geez dude. Either send them back and let him try to fix them or stop complaining.

+1000

So you are saying I shouldn't be complaining of a permanant gouge in the side of this speaker that I paid roughly 6k for?

audiocircle.com/index.php?action=gallery;area=browse;image=71084;size=huge

Not repairable and Ryan did not disclose this defect or the one in the baffle when he took my money.

Ryan never admitted to this gouge when they arrived at the end of June and now that there is much more involvement he posted pics for the first time and admits to the defect in the veneer. He calls it a once in a lifetime veneer and I call it a once in a lifetime mistake! I don't think anyone would expect to pay this kind of money and not have the speaker builder be upfront with any problems. The just ship and see what happens approach may work for some but not many.

The fact that Ryan couldn't be upfront with the problems makes it near impossible to trust him.

Yes, the bubbles and stands are repairable but not to 100% like new condition. I have had proffessionals look at these speakers.