Vapor Audio Cirrus? - Page 4

People have different tastes. There is something to be said for "accuracy" and "neutrality" (which is what Infinity shot for) and there is something to be said about changing character of the sound to impart smoothness or even a harder, less damped sound. Infinity worked really hard developing everything about the speaker, including the drivers. The Cirrus speakers are using drivers sourced from other companies and simply assembling a pre-designed build. I could do this myself. Heck, I did this with my car.

When it comes to making claims of scientifically accurate, neutral, quality speakers, Infinity has a ton of science backing their design. I would say it's rather unlikely the Cirrus speakers underwent the same engineering and testing that Harman/Infinity put on it's older CMMD and more modern high end Revel offerings. Someone may "like" the sound of the Cirrus speakers but that doesn't make them more advanced or more high fidelity than an advanced design from a company that put that much R&D into their brand.

I myself like smoother sounding speakers (like my BIC DV series) more than the Infinity CMMD designed speakers. It's a preference but I know that my speakers, no matter how much I like their sound, aren't in the same ballpark of accuracy as the Revel's. If you're going to buy "high end" then you should buy "accurate" speakers. If you just want sound that you "like" to hear, then there are tons of low cost speaker choices available which aren't accurate but sound very pleasing.

I honestly dont think we need anyone to tell us the difference between harman industires and vapor audio.
I suggest someone to read through vapor audio page as they have never claimed anything out of ordinary. No one can deny the quality of the drivers used in the cirrus, let alone doubt the researtch and development put into them.
Of coruse anyone interested in building speakers can built there own and even start there own business. Try building the cirrus clone with the exact drivers and cabinet material and by the time you finish, you wont sell it at cost with all your effort spent.
Im far more interested in speaker designer like Salk,Selah, Ascend, Dennis,Vapor... These are the people who put thier passion into a business and create ultimately very good speakers. Far better then the one who built most infinity speakers for the sake of a job and those who assembled dont even know what music is.

Very impressive stuff!

Don't forget Jon Lane, although his Arx is more bang for the buck than those mentioned except Ascend with there lower end models, they sound awesome and he really took his time with crossovers, driver selection and planar tweeters. I'm still amazed at how he made such great speakers at the price point.

You are minimizing the effort it took to create the Cirrus without any real knowledge of Vapor Audio's capabilities or background. One must also consider the pedigree of the companies that supplied the drivers, RAAL and AudioTechnology.

Do you really think the Infinity drivers, made at a price point, compare with the cost no object drivers used in the Cirrus? I propose that accountants had as much say in the design of the Infinity as the engineers did.


There is plenty of R&D done by the manufacturer (Vapor Audio) and the suppliers (RAAL and AudioTechnology).

The Cirrus did not come about by accident. The cabinet alone speaks to level of thought that went into this design.


Does BIC use the same testing methods that Harman employs?


I would like very much to hear the Cirrus, it appears to be one of the top monitors available anywhere, at any price. I expect the RAAL ribbon would walk all over the Revel dome.

My dog have "trained" ear to hear the raal.

I won't deny that there is an "artistic" factor to expensive speakers and I won't deny that many of them have sound design principles and are tested and tuned. However, Infinity is a corporation with the money, infrastructure and time to run thousands of tests for the purposes of innovation, hire the best engineers and turn out the most sound designs. Which are directly tested against their competition in multiple areas for TRUE accuracy, not the "impression" of accuracy, not for "wow factor", etc, but for true, testable, repeatable subjective results with trained listeners. That is pretty strong speaker science they've developed over the years.

So, when a "high end" audio product boasts about it's accuracy, it should back that up. When I put up a common corporate speaker developer like Harman/Infinity, there is a ton of real evidence that they have developed some stellar speakers. The Cirrus speaker I'm sure sounds nice and is pleasing to look at, but let's not put it in the same category as Revel just yet without substantial proof of it's accuracy.

x2

During the development and testing of Infinity's CMMD drivers and speaker development, Infinity targeted the "best in class" (best in price-range is really what this means). 10 years ago Infinity well OVER-SHOT the mark making speakers until around 2005 that were FAR above the quality of it's competitor's at the price point. Infinity has unfortunately since brought it's products in the low cost category back to earth and enthusiasts need to look to the Revel line to get high end performance.


The cabinets built by Harman/Infinity use patented waveguides and specialized materials. Even on their low cost speakers, the quality is quite decent. On the Revel lines, it's very good.


Initially BIC developed the stellar DV and Acoustech speaker lines with what is obviously a quality experience as the target. BIC hit that mark and their speakers were (and still are) widely praised. BIC hasn't changed the design on the DV series in over 10 years. There hasn't been any need to. I'm not going to put BIC's DV series up against Cirrus but it wouldn't surprise me in a blind test that BIC's DV series would fare much better than one would expect, especially to the untrained enthusiast's ear (which is virtually 99.99999% of the music listeners).

As I said before, I picked my speakers based on enjoyment. I like how they sound. But my system was designed primarily for movie soundtracks, where as I would characterize the Cirrus speakers as more suited to 2-channel music. If I had to pick my favorite sounding type of speaker for 2-channel music, it would be something like Mirage's Omnipolar speakers or perhaps a dipole type design, which are FAR from accurate speakers, but with knowing how mangled music recordings have always been, accuracy is not necessarily the most important goal in picking a speaker for music. It's how much enjoyment you get out of them. However, if your goal is truly "high end" then that means accuracy, neutrality and proper dispersion, then there are choices that are superior to Cirrus.

As some one who has heard both(Gem2 & Salon2 on the Revel side) I'll take the Cirrus over any Revel speaker, not even taking into account the $$$ difference.

First, let me make clear that I have complete respect for Harman and their R&D efforts. That said...

Apparently, Infinity's effort wasn't enough to best the sound of the price comparable BIC, at least to your ears. And your ears may very well be correct, there are many speakers that best Infinity's entry level efforts.


This doesn't mean that Harman has a monopoly on solid cabinet construction. I've seen cabinets made of aluminum, concrete, granite, and purpose built man made materials. Infinity's low cost cabinets are two step above a cardboard box, in my opinion.

Nor are Infinity/Revel drivers anything special. Dome tweeters are not exactly pushing state of the art. I'll bet donuts to dollars that Revel's flagship speaker uses a mere few hundred dollars worth of drivers.

You started posting in this thread speaking of value. Where is the value in paying brick and mortar (retail) prices? The Revel flagship costs much much less to manufacture than it's retail price would suggest. The Cirrus appears to be much closer in final cost vs. manufacturing cost in comparison.


This doesn't answer the question I asked. Does BIC use the same testing methods that Harman employs? Let's keep the playing field level. I quote:


BIC makes a speaker that you enjoy more than the technological juggernaut Harman does. Perhaps a small company like Vapor Audio (and others), blazing their own path, can as well?

BIC is not even in the same category as the Klipsch Chorus II's I had years ago. If you put these speaker on a descent resolving system you could not get far enough away from them to enjoy. Talk about a shouting match. All dynamic with no regard to musicality and engagement. Good for movies for the average listener like my neighbors. Most non trained non audiophiles would be very impressed with BIC speakers. They play loud and you know you are listening to a speaker.

There is not doubt that harman had spent the time and money on R/D over any of the designer i have listed. Like i said, we don't need you to tell us about that, and it doesn't mean a designer like those i mentioned cant built great speakers. If you have read the Vapor site, which i think you did not, there is no where mentioned about boasting in accuracy. It is not like the Cirrus is not accurate, it is just have not given me that impression of what they do. I think you are the only who is over emphasizing about accuracy.
No one but you are getting overly sensitive about putting the revel with the Cirrus. As far as i can remember reading from this post, it just happened that an owner of the revel sold the revel for the Cirrus. I don't think any of us has any thought about what the owner was thinking.

If i had to buy a mass market speaker like the infinity, i would go with KEF,B&W,Parading,Mission,Dali...over infinty.

I suggest you read this old article about sonus faber, even they use off the shelves drivers on some of their designs.
http://www.soundstage2.com/tours/sonus_faber_200708/

lol!

There is this myth about large audio manufacturers and their huge R & D programs. Once they get to a certain size they just start releasing new lines every year for marketing, that are mostly worse than the speakers they made 20 years earlier.

Even if they do real R&D it is almost all measurement based and the speakers evolve into something very lacking.

B&W springs to mind. This was years past, and I have not auditioned the newer models, but my experience was of a disjointed sound that lacked musical coherence. On its own the highs, mids and lows were all great, but the timing and coherence qualitites that do not show up in measurements were missing.

Soon after I then read a big magazine feature showing B&W's state of the art R&D program that was all about anechoic chamber construction and how great their inhouse made drivers measure. Small wonder their speakers were overrated IMO (the ones priced under 10k I heard)

Huge markup speaker to cover marketing. The new D series speaker are descent but not overly impressive. No wow factor here.

Detective Chu at it again. You kill me man. What's it to you?

Have you heard them?

Not really. Infinity had the best entry-level speakers in the late 90's by far due to their CMMD driver development and extensive subjective human testing. Infinity had the "technically superior" speakers, but BIC in my opinion had the more pleasing sound. If all people were trained listeners, then perhaps those speakers would've been best, but people aren't typically able to hear imperfections. So, the character of sound the speaker imparts is what most people pick up on. My ears aren't perfect but they aren't bad either. I know what I like. BIC's speakers back when they were tested still measured well but they are obviously giving a more damped sound/smoother sound. That might not really be what's best for Infinity who were shooting for a "neutral" "uncolored", more technically perfect sound. Most people obviously want more "fantasy" to their sound than reality. It's just the way it is. People are flawed.

If I wanted to have a no-compromise type quality, low cost speaker that was tested with people who have better hearing than I do using training to hear inaccurate reproduction, then Infinity's speakers from late 1998-2005 are some of the very best you can buy. However, I chose to go with my own ears on the decision. I still happen to think the Infinity CMMD speakers of the time have a "clean" sound but not as smooth as the BIC DV series.

If anyone is in the market for low cost, but high accuracy speakers, try looking for used Infinity CMMD based speakers models made between 1998 and 2005. They are really great values.

Regardless, it comes down to buying what gives you the best experience. Somewhere, you might actually find a speaker as good as Cirrus at a lower cost. Measurements aren't everything. Enjoyment is more important to me. But I think it's very fair to assert that high cost speakers must show their work and provide the highest accuracy in sound reproduction. Anything less at high prices is a con.

Ryan has stated that measurements are available upon request, and we have read posts of listening impressions. You should not expect a one man operation to have the same resources as Harman, resources that in your opinion, didn't allow them to best BIC.

It does allow Harman to command a retail price of at least 5 times the actual manufacturing cost. The drivers in their best effort amounts to only a few hundred bucks per speaker. I fail to see the value in that.

Have you seen what a Revel crossover looks like? Coils placed right next to each other. You would compare the RAAL to the Revel dome? Really?

Your partial quote of my post leaves my question unanswered. Does BIC use the same testing methods that Harman employs?

Now wait. I didn't say Infinity's speakers "bested" BIC. I admitted that the CMMD driver-based speaker system Infinity created in the late-90's was more accurate and a higher-end grade. I clarified that if accuracy were the sole purpose for buying the speakers, I would have gone with Infinity's. Opinion and fact are two different things. It's my "opinion" that I prefer the BIC DV series sonic character over the Infinity speakers in the late 90's. It's a "fact" that Infinity's design, drivers and implementation were superior in sound reproduction to the BIC DV series based on Infinity's scientifically sound "best in class" evaluation with trained listeners (who have better hearing than I do).

If someone asks me to recommend an uncolored, neutral & precise speaker for a budget cost range, I'm going to suggest he look into used Infinity speaker models made from late 1998 to 2005 which employ the CMMD drivers.


If specially trained human test subjects cannot identify distortion differences between the two sets of drivers you mentioned, then is all the extra cost really effective? This is precisely WHY specially trained human subjects are utilized in strict laboratory comparisons that remove all bias and focus ONLY on each speaker's playback of optimally recorded material. So that engineers designing speakers know where to put the bulk of their efforts in terms of cost and materials. Just because you spared no expense in an area that listeners likely won't hear a difference doesn't make your design better. Certainly not more efficient in where the money is going in the build.


I'm not certain that they do. However, I have not corresponded with any BIC engineer or marketing director. Most speaker companies have some kind of testing methodology setup to evaluate their speakers vs the competition. It would be quite wise to do this so that you know whether your design efforts and cost investments are truly making a difference in making your speaker preferred by interested buyers.

BIC hasn't really changed the design of it's speakers in quite some time, so I would gather they likely haven't done many recent tests. I would be interested to know myself (if in the late 90's during the design of the DV series) they did some head to head evaluations. There is something to be said when a company doesn't have to change a speaker design in over a decade and yet still has very satisfied recent buyers. Infinity has since watered down their designs in the last decade.

Timothy91, You do realize that this is the Vapor Audio Cirrus speaker thread?

For someone whom has never heard, auditioned, or otherwise has intentions of buying from this manufacturer, I can't understand why you are trashing this thread with unrelated content. I want to know about this speaker line, and I truly don't give a rat's ass about old Infinity, or BIC speakers. Is there any way possible for you to stay on topic, or find a topic elsewhere suited to your discussion/ramblings.

I have no problem whatsoever with a theological, or technical discussion, but this isn't the place. Quite frankly it's uncalled for if not outright rude!

Jay

A big good speaker will beat a good little speaker every time. I never said they weren't good. I just said they seemed awfully expensive.

I have to disagree. Good big speakers and good small speakers each have their strenghs and weaknesses. Just like good examples of different designs have their strenghs and weaknesses. And our musical preferences and pragmatics like space and budget will determine what works best for each of us.

And part of the fun of this hobby is trying out diferent designs. I spent many happy years in the fleawatt full range driver world and have recently gotten into waveguide designs (as a result of an experience with the Vapor Aurora I heard in Chicago. If I can ever get to St Louis I hope to hear the rest of the Vapor line-up).

I was merely using Infinity as a point of comparison when asking how this speaker was developed, tested and compared to it's competition. The maker of these speakers has not released any such information thus far. If a pair of speakers are going to be priced as much as a whole sound system, then I think it's completely relevant to ask these questions. What's more, someone selling a speaker system at this price point should be offering as much info as possible about it's development and aspects of it's superiority, not just in marketing speak, but with real numbers and design advantages.

So, if you think I'm rude, then you must understand I think you're pushing at the wrong man in this thread for info.

I am fine with leaving it to a manufacturer what to publish and what not to publish. Some take the point of view that they ought to publish in order to bowl you over with what they regard as the technical, measurable superiority of their products. Others feel that they are better not off giving this information (due to beliefs that numbers and what we can measure don't tell the whole story or due to concerns over intellectual property and their trade secrets).

When Stereophile was asked why they hadn't reviewed the new Magnepans the response from John Atkinson was that Magnepan didn't want the Stereophile measurements published due to what it might tell competitors or imitators about aspects of the design that Magnepan considered its intellectual property. Other companies don't have 6moons review their components since 6moons wants permission to take pics of the internals of a component. All fair enough.

My most recent purchase (the no longer made SP Tech Minis) was made in part because I found the technical info that SP Tech (now Aether) published. But what got me interested in speakers of this design was my experience with....Vapor Audio. I was floored by their waveguide design, but wasn't able to afford it. The experience with the Vapor Auroras in combination with the SP Tech/Aether convinced me to grab the Minis when a pair I could afford became available. But published measurements or no, boyyy do I want to hear those Auroras again, along with the rest of their line. Thought I'd get a chance this week, but had to cancel the trip. But next time I am in St Louis...

There all kinds of expensive speakers. Why pick this one to rag on when you haven't heard it? Also, in what regard will a big speaker beat a little speaker? Take the Paradigm Signature tower and put it against the bookshelf. The tower will have more low end...what's it matter if you have a sub?

Ethics? We're not talking about abortion here. We're talking about a booth at an electronics show. We know that you were the one who brought down Shifter . But, come on.