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Multi-room Wireless Audio...it shouldn't be this hard? - Page 2

post #31 of 66
3/4/11 at 2:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jriver View Post

In spite of what a couple of people said above, DLNA is a good standard. The implementation isn't always consistent.

No, it's not.

It has two major flaws which make it acceptable for video but unacceptable for audio:
1. Nobody envisioned that the Control Point is separate from both the server and the renderer. Yes, I know the design has them separate but for it to really work the CP needs permanent access to both the server and the renderer making it virtually impossible to have a CP on a battery powered remote and also adding lots of communication overhead and latency.

2. The communication overhead and latency part also makes it virtually impossible to do things like gapless playback or multiroom synchronization.

Playlist handling is also a difficult thing. It's defined but rarely really supported.

All vendors that do away with these flaws and still somewhat use DLNA (Sonos and Raumfeld come to mind) work around it by NOT using DLNA as a control protocol but doing their own thing (or their own extensions) and only use DLNA as a means of library access.
Sonos is a good example. You can use Sonos as a DLNA renderer (which does away with Sonos' 65.000 track limit) but it loses most of it's UI capabilities (which are a big strength of Sonos) if you do so.

Nothing of this has to do with the implementation, it's the standard that is broken.

All of this is rarely a problem for video - after all for video you do need a screen which can then also contain the CP - but for audio it makes it the wrong standard.
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post #32 of 66
3/4/11 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post
OK, this is close to what I want, but I am either suffering early onset dementia or I just don't "get it"! I have a laptop with 135 GB of music on it. In my HT room I have a lovely receiver connected to awesome speakers. All I want to do is "play" a .flac on the laptop and have this "wireless something" (WS) (connected, I suppose, via optical cable to the receiver) play it through the existing audio system. I'd like it to work from about as far away as my laptop works from my router (30-40 feet). I don't want/need no stinkin' "remote" as I only need volume control, I don't need multiple zones and I don't need sound out of the WS. Sounds simple to my obviously simple mind, but every time I start down this path the suggestions get more and more complex (and expensive) and I just cannot understand why. Is what I want too simple or too ... obtuse? Anyway, I do hate to hijack a thread, but the OP's desire (minus the multiple zones/rooms) is dang close to mine and if there are any suggestions my lone remaining neuron would surely appreciate them. Oh, I *hate* (well, dislike) iTunes!
This is what you want...

http://audioengineusa.com/Store/Audioengine-W1
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post #33 of 66
3/4/11 at 3:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlknez View Post
Hmm, interesting. Certainly far more wallet-friendly, but I really wanted to avoid having anything else to limit the portability of the laptop. The addition of the USB transmitter is the downside (for me) in that regard. The product does get pretty good reviews. So ... is Sonos at over 4x the cost worth it for its lack of any directly-tethered external xmit device? The expandability of the Sonos is a no-op for me so from a function standpoint these two are essentially equals in my world. Trade offs, trade offs ... Thanks very much for the input!
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post #34 of 66
3/4/11 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

Hmm, interesting. Certainly far more wallet-friendly, but I really wanted to avoid having anything else to limit the portability of the laptop. The addition of the USB transmitter is the downside (for me) in that regard. The product does get pretty good reviews. So ... is Sonos at over 4x the cost worth it for its lack of any directly-tethered external xmit device? The expandability of the Sonos is a no-op for me so from a function standpoint these two are essentially equals in my world. Trade offs, trade offs ... Thanks very much for the input!

Remember, Sonos really isn't engineered to work streaming from your library via wifi. This may seem counterintuitive, but they state in their manuals, etc., that your audio file source should be hard wired to at least 1 piece of Sonos gear. In my case, that's a NAS (probably true for many running it), but it could be any library source. But it is, in fact, intended to be "directly-tethered", at least at the library. Once 1 piece of Sonos gear is connected, the system streams all of the data via a separate, and presumably more-stable wireless stream. But you can use your laptop (or any device with ethernet or wifi access) as a controller. Just wanted to make sure you were clear on that; it is a bit confusing.
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post #35 of 66
3/4/11 at 7:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

Sonos really isn't engineered to work streaming from your library via wifi. [...] they state in their manuals, etc., that your audio file source should be hard wired to at least 1 piece of Sonos gear.

That's not true. *ANY* one, and only one, Zone Player (or Zone Bridge) must be connected to your router but there is no requirement that your "audio file source should be hard wired". I have a five zone Sonos system which draws audio off at least three WIFI-connected computers whith no difficulties whatsoever.
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post #36 of 66
3/4/11 at 8:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

That's not true. *ANY* one, and only one, Zone Player (or Zone Bridge) must be connected to your router but there is no requirement that your "audio file source should be hard wired". I have a five zone Sonos system which draws audio off at least three WIFI-connected computers whith no difficulties whatsoever.

Actually, it is true. Take a look. Here's verbatim from their site:

"When sharing music from your computer or NAS, you must be connected with an Ethernet cable to your Router/switch or a ZonePlayer. Sonos does not offer support for wireless music shares."
https://sonos.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/s...php?p_faqid=77

Now, I'm happy your system works well, and while someone else MIGHT be able to get it to do the same, it ain't in the specs (at least it ain't "supported"). I know this as initially I was really hoping to be able to stream via wifi to the Sonos system, and found the system not to be designed with this is mind.
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post #37 of 66
3/4/11 at 8:36pm
cavu is right. I streamed from my wirelessly-connected laptop for quite a while before moving my audo library to a hard-wired NAS drive. I did have one or two dropouts over several days when I was using the laptop, but none from the NAS drive. So while it is recommended to hard-wire the source, it is certainly not a hard requirement.
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post #38 of 66
3/4/11 at 8:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rishi76 View Post

cavu is right. I streamed from my wirelessly-connected laptop for quite a while before moving my audo library to a hard-wired NAS drive. I did have one or two dropouts over several days when I was using the laptop, but none from the NAS drive. So while it is recommended to hard-wire the source, it is certainly not a hard requirement.

Cavu ain't "right." While I'm happy you had success with some dropouts, and while I know it is feasible, it ain't supported. So don't go buy your Sonos system and set it up this way, because if or when it don't work, you're on your own. If you don't mind that risk, then fine. But not everyone here may be willing to risk that; hence why I provided the accurate specs. I think providing accurate advice is more important here rather than what someone might have been able to rig-up
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post #39 of 66
3/4/11 at 9:32pm
ROTFLMAO ... just to keep from crying. Whew, for a brief second I thought I was *not* confused and it was, quite frankly, terrifying. In this day and age when I can transfer funds from my 401K in New York to my checking account in Arizona and pay my mortgage in California whilst sitting in a meadow high in the Blue Ridge Mountains 2000 miles from home with nothing more than a cell phone, to think I knew how I might take a machine with lots of storage and a powerful radio with far more bandwidth than I can use and actually make it play an audio file wa-a-a-a-ay over on the other side of the room wirelessly was almost too much to bear.

Heh, heh, heh ... at least I now know I am right to be confounded or at least somewhat justified anyway. Wheeeeeeeee ...

Thanks for all of the input - all much appreciated even if it takes me awhile to grasp its true import.
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post #40 of 66
3/5/11 at 4:34am
Just to muddy up the waters some more, I think it might also matter what you are trying to stream. All of my audio is lossy mp3, but I know many audiophiles insist on lossless. Of course, this is a much larger data stream to my knowledge, so that may also be a factor. I, for instance, might be able to get away with just streaming wirelessly since all of files are lossy. But for others, it might not work. Something to consider.

And if you think this is a pain, just try streaming HD video wirelessly... It's a whole other bucket of worms.
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post #41 of 66
3/5/11 at 8:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

Heh, heh, heh ... at least I now know I am right to be confounded or at least somewhat justified anyway. Wheeeeeeeee ...

Thanks for all of the input - all much appreciated even if it takes me awhile to grasp its true import.

quarlo, take a look at the Squeezebox Touch. Yeah, it costs more than 39 bucks but does a lot more and provides excellent playback quality. Kal Rubinson did a review and I find that those that have the most problems with the wireless aspect are those that have mucked around with their networks in the search for super security.

http://www.stereophile.com/mediaserv...yer/index.html
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post #42 of 66
3/5/11 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

quarlo, take a look at the Squeezebox Touch. Yeah, it costs more than 39 bucks ...

Thanks for the suggestion. My main complaint with Squeezebox and others like it is the separate controller (unless, of course, I have this wrong as well ). I mean ... I have this amazing laptop which is my constant companion - all I want is a way to stream music from it (wherever it and I happen to be) to my main audio system. That's it.

I've already figured I can rationalize around $500 so expense isn't a huge constraint. With SB I have to lug an extra remote around, with Sonos (ZP90+Zonebridge) I have to build a dedicated music server or acquire a NAS box, with Audioengine AW1 I have a USB dongle flopping around like an unwanted appendage as I move about with the laptop. I am beginning to think there isn't anything out there for my (admittedly very narrow) purpose.
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post #43 of 66
3/5/11 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

Thanks for the suggestion. My main complaint with Squeezebox and others like it is the separate controller (unless, of course, I have this wrong as well ). I mean ... I have this amazing laptop which is my constant companion - all I want is a way to stream music from it (wherever it and I happen to be) to my main audio system. That's it.

I've already figured I can rationalize around $500 so expense isn't a huge constraint. With SB I have to lug an extra remote around, with Sonos (ZP90+Zonebridge) I have to build a dedicated music server or acquire a NAS box, with Audioengine AW1 I have a USB dongle flopping around like an unwanted appendage as I move about with the laptop. I am beginning to think there isn't anything out there for my (admittedly very narrow) purpose.

You could certainly try streaming wirelessly to Sonos, and see how it goes. Advice that applies to many topics on these forums is buy from somewhere with a great return policy (e.g. Amazon), try it out for a few weeks, and if it works for you then there you go. It may be your best bet at this point, and it may be worth a shot. Since I'm no engineer (and I don't work for Sonos) I can't say what the limitations are to streaming wirelessly, and so it may in fact work in your situation. I live in a small apt., I listen to lossy mp3s, and so I think it could have worked for me (maybe?). But I had a NAS anyway, and was aware of the specs, and so I went that route.
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post #44 of 66
3/5/11 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

Thanks for the suggestion. My main complaint with Squeezebox and others like it is the separate controller (unless, of course, I have this wrong as well ). I mean ... I have this amazing laptop which is my constant companion - all I want is a way to stream music from it (wherever it and I happen to be) to my main audio system. That's it.

I've already figured I can rationalize around $500 so expense isn't a huge constraint. With SB I have to lug an extra remote around, with Sonos (ZP90+Zonebridge) I have to build a dedicated music server or acquire a NAS box, with Audioengine AW1 I have a USB dongle flopping around like an unwanted appendage as I move about with the laptop. I am beginning to think there isn't anything out there for my (admittedly very narrow) purpose.

You can control the Touch from your laptop, I use mine most of the time. An IR remote is also included and if you want, you can use the display on the device itself. There are also apps for the various smartphones. Logitech offers a 30 day trial and you can download the software and use one of the software players for free to get an idea of how it works.

I initially thought I only wanted to stream my local library but when I found all the options available from the internet, both free and fee, I was hooked. Best hifi investment I ever made.
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post #45 of 66
3/5/11 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

You can control the Touch from your laptop, I use mine most of the time. An IR remote is also included and if you want, you can use the display on the device itself. There are also apps for the various smartphones. Logitech offers a 30 day trial and you can download the software and use one of the software players for free to get an idea of how it works.

I initially thought I only wanted to stream my local library but when I found all the options available from the internet, both free and fee, I was hooked. Best hifi investment I ever made.

What high fidelity investment did you make?
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post #46 of 66
3/5/11 at 11:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

You can control the Touch from your laptop,

Oooo, really? Well, I have to say that, in hindsight, the info was there on the LT site, but not clear enough for me obviously. I have several LT devices, but have never been impressed with their documentation so I suppose it's not surprising I missed that.

With that in mind ... the "Getting To Know Your Touch" document is based entirely from the point of view of interacting with the Touch screen - at least as I read it. What software allows the laptop to act as a remote controller? If it's SBS then I repeat the aspersions I cast previously at the LT documentation.

Thanks a lot for the clarification - I think we may have a contender!
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post #47 of 66
3/5/11 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

. . . My main complaint with Squeezebox and others like it is the separate controller . . .

OK, Here is another idea . . .

I am looking at the Netgear NeoTV 550. One of the reasons is that it plays gapless audio. Another is that it has a web interface.

If you put a Neo with your audio equipment, and control it through the web interface from your laptop's browser, you could have it pull the music from your laptop.

However, the Neo does not have wireless built-in, so you would also need to get a wireless access-point for it.
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post #48 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcfay View Post

"When sharing music from your computer or NAS, you must be connected with an Ethernet cable to your Router/switch or a ZonePlayer. Sonos does not offer support for wireless music shares."

Odd. I have never seen that admonition before. I have setup Sonos systems for my self and several friends and never had an issue with "wireless music shares". I guess in every situation I benefitted by a strong and reliable existing WIFI setup!!

Here's more explanation of Sonos' position, (emphasis mine):
"sharing music files for streaming requires a strong and stable connection to the wireless network at all times, especially if there are multiple songs playing in different ZonePlayers at the same time or the music is in a higher quality format. Sonos cannot guarantee the strength or stability of your existing wireless network and does not support using a wireless connection to share music."
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post #49 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

Odd. I have never seen that admonition before. I have setup Sonos systems for my self and several friends and never had an issue with "wireless music shares". I guess in every situation I benefitted by a strong and reliable existing WIFI setup!!

So, are you saying a ZP90 standalone *may* handle a wireless stream from the laptop (assuming a "strong and reliable existing WIFI setup")? Strong and reliable I got ... the network, that is!

My sincere apologies to the OP as I seem to have steered the thread well away from multi-room. It was not my intention, but I do sincerely appreciate all of the help.
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post #50 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

What high fidelity investment did you make?

Logitech Transporter. Supports sample rates up 24/96, as does the Touch.


quarlo... SBS does offer a Web based interface to control the SB devices.
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post #51 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

quarlo... SBS does offer a Web based interface to control the SB devices.

Cool - thanks a lot!!
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post #52 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by quarlo View Post

So, are you saying a ZP90 standalone *may* handle a wireless stream from the laptop (assuming a "strong and reliable existing WIFI setup")?

It has worked flawlessly for me (and others) under those conditions for several years! I play my entire FLAC Beatles library off my netbook.
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post #53 of 66
3/5/11 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

It has worked flawlessly for me (and others) under those conditions for several years! I play my entire FLAC Beatles library off my netbook.

Two of my favorite things: Beatles and FLAC! At the risk of repeating myself: cool - thanks a lot!!
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post #54 of 66
3/5/11 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcemanDallas View Post

Logitech Transporter. Supports sample rates up 24/96, as does the Touch.


quarlo... SBS does offer a Web based interface to control the SB devices.

I had a transporter. It was a great piece of gear. It is too bad that it got discontinued. Does not seem that there are enough of us Iceman. I sold mine as I wanted to combine my digital/analog/video/audio worlds together.
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post #55 of 66
3/5/11 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlknez View Post
I had a transporter. It was a great piece of gear. It is too bad that it got discontinued. Does not seem that there are enough of us Iceman. I sold mine as I wanted to combine my digital/analog/video/audio worlds together.
Yeah, I think the VFD displays were too costly. There is now a Transporter SE, minus the knob and about $800 less. It's probably just a short term product to clear out stock.
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post #56 of 66
3/5/11 at 3:04pm
quarlo,

You can grab the Squeezebox software free here and give it a try:

http://www.mysqueezebox.com/download

In your situation you'd likely run it on your laptop. Then you can grab a free "soft" squeezebox here:

http://softsqueeze.sourceforge.net/

and install it on your laptop or another computer. It will mimic what the actual hardware would do and will let you test out the interaction between the server, web interface, and player.
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post #57 of 66
3/5/11 at 9:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by apnar View Post

quarlo,

You can grab the Squeezebox software free here and give it a try:

In your situation you'd likely run it on your laptop. Then you can grab a free "soft" squeezebox

Hey, thanks. I'll borrow a laptop from a colleague and give it a try!
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post #58 of 66
3/6/11 at 2:54pm
Thread Starter 
So...I pulled the trigger and implemented (for the time being) a 3 zone Sonos set-up. One Zp90 (connected to the 2.1 powered speakers in my living room), one ZP120 powering a set of bookshelf speakers in the kitchen, and a stand-alone s5 that I can move around where needed.

Plan will be to expand over time to several more zones through the house and installing in-ceiling speakers in those zones.

Anyway...it certainly works as advertised. No muss, no fuss. I'm a happy, if not somewhat poorer, customer.

My biggest "issue" was determining the control mechanism. We have no iPods/iPads/i-anything in the house...I just could not justify spending $350 on a single-function device (remote).

The windows software controller works of course...but not always convenient to have to run to a lap-tap to control.

Solution?

I bought Vigrin Mobile Optimus V no-contract phone for $150 at Radio Shack. Don't need to activate it at all...since you just need to use WiFi. It's actually $130 at BestBuy...(but nowhere in stock at the moment). I also bought a $30 charging dock for it (the LG Media Dock for the Vortex fits this phone) so that it looks nice "parked" on the counter / shelf.

Using this as a "single function" device replacement, it actually works VERY well. You can set the android phone WiFi to never turn off, and I downloaded a "no-lock" app that prevents the phone from locking. Bottom line? I can keep the sonos control software open...and it's "always connected" to Sonos. Just pick up the "remote" and instantly ready to control sonos (just like the formal sonos remote).

This is very important for the wife who will not want to deal with it if it just "doesn't work."

Currently, I'm using the freely available 3rd party Andronos software, which works very well (with a few issues). However, Sonos should be releasing their official Android software within a month's time.
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post #59 of 66
3/6/11 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe DeFuria View Post

So...I pulled the trigger and implemented [...] a 3 zone Sonos set-up [...] it certainly works as advertised. No muss, no fuss. I'm a happy, if not somewhat poorer, customer.

Congrats!!

I know you'll enjoy it.

Keep your eye on eBay et al for a pre-owned Sonos controller or iTouch.
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post #60 of 66
3/7/11 at 7:49am
Thread Starter 
So far we're loving it in the house.

Now...I thought finding a solution to my wireless streaming through the house was a difficult proposition....

Now I want to find an auto-sensing switch for line inputs. I simply cannot BELIEIVE in this day and age that I can literally only find ONE device out there (Sonance AL2) that seems to fit the bill.

There really is no demand for such a thing?!

And trying to buy it? I can only find "shady" internet storefronts (like Elistinka)...that claim to carry it. So I have an e-mail sent off to an an official Sonance supplier in my area...I'm guessing he'll come back with a $200 price tag.

Sigh....might be the price I have to pay to avoid teaching the wife and kids to "press the A button when you want to watch TV, press the B button when you want to listen to music..."
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