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Official Panasonic DMP-BDT110/210/310 Owners Thread - Page 269

post #8041 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

As I promised a while ago, I finally measured and compared both PS3 and BDT110 output. I was using HCFR and i1 Display LT probe. Quickly comparing results it seems they both output the same gray scale, gamma and gamut (even on lower saturation levels. I measured 0%, 25%, 50% and 75% saturation points too).
However after using both of them a long while I still feel that PS3 gives a slightly nicer looking image. Motion is definitely different looking (PS3 is smoother) and skin tones tend to look slightly more saturated and detailed in PS3 sometimes. What puzzles me is that because both units measure the same output for grayscale and colors howcome there can be sometimes so obvious differencies in resulted picture? Maybe motion and detail is from that PS3 simply pulls out 24p frames out of the disc without doing unneccessary deinterlacing or any other processing but difference in skin tones (saturation) is confusing because I think it should show in measurements.
Now the Secrets test of the PS3 is quite dated and Sony might have fixed all the issues with Firmware updates, but then they did test it, it had severe problems with cadence detection so IMHO I would be more inclined to believe that the PS3 is more prone to extra processing that the BDT110. But it's hard to judge from here, I have never seen a PS3, what would benefit forum discussions like this was if it was possible to cheaply record a HDMI source so comparisons could be distributed. HDCP is a shame...
post #8042 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Ultra View Post

It could also be that Panasonic forgot to support 5.1 over toslink when using the software players (i.e, apps etc). Anyone else even tried 5.1 over optical for anything else than BD and DVD?

I'm 99.9 % sure I did have 5.1 available over Toslink ( optical ) before. Then did firmware update about a month ago. Maybe had something to do with that and that's what I think happened.

Is anybody else who is using the the Toslink ( optical ) for audio and not HDMI, having audio problems streaming Netflix ? Again, I only get stereo and not 5.1 streaming Netflix. Blu ray and dvd's play 5.1 fine.
Edited by ferrari fan - 8/23/12 at 8:00pm
post #8043 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Ultra View Post

Now the Secrets test of the PS3 is quite dated and Sony might have fixed all the issues with Firmware updates, but then they did test it, it had severe problems with cadence detection so IMHO I would be more inclined to believe that the PS3 is more prone to extra processing that the BDT110. But it's hard to judge from here, I have never seen a PS3, what would benefit forum discussions like this was if it was possible to cheaply record a HDMI source so comparisons could be distributed. HDCP is a shame...

I know PS3 is not perfect player for odd candences but at least over 99% of blu-ray movie I have are mastered in 1080p/24, so no deinterlacing need to be done and PS3 simply decodes 24p frames off the disc and this is what I assume make PS3 the best. Most standalone player tend to run everything through deinterlacer even it is not needed in 24p situation.
post #8044 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

Yes, all those that you had mentioned, bitstream on and hdmi audio off is what my original settings were, and currently are. And I have selected in Netflix menu for the appriate titles 5.1. I know that I did have 5.1 from Netflix when I initially set it up about 6 months ago. There was a firmware update, which I did about 1 month ago. maybe that killed my 5.1. Oh well, unless someone has the secret to unlock my problem, I guess I'll just let my Pioneer receiver decode it into Dolby Pro Logic frown.gif Michael, thanks for your help.



FWIW, I just started Netflix and THOR on the 210, and my optical out was DD 5.1 according to my receiver (lit the surround signal on the unit)- I admit that I usually use my WDLive! for Netflix, but I do have the latest firmware 1.88. However, my HDMI Audio it's set to ON because I watch sometimes without the surround system late at night and mute the TV speakers when I don't. (Love my Harmony One)

What's your internet connection at the unit? I think Netflix demands 5mb at least to do HD and more with 5.1. The support page says it does 1080p and 5.1 now. http://support.netflix.com/en/node/517#gsc.tab=0

I checked my Audio Out submenu:
DD > Bitstream
DTS> Bitstream
Secondary Audio = ON

PCM Downmix = OFF
Downmix = Surround
7.1 = Auto
High Clarity Sound = Disable
post #8045 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbsidlov View Post

The support page says it does 1080p and 5.1 now. http://support.netflix.com/en/node/517#gsc.tab=0

I'm pretty sure that support page is lying about 1080p. I've tested to see if I'm getting 1080p on the 110 (which I really, really ought to get around to selling) with every firmware update. Last time they sadly added the Netflix common UI (the original one had a more powerful browser) but it's still not pulling down 1080p and it still has the black flash problem. Netflix changed the UI that they load into it at start-up but there's been no apparent change to the underlying streaming engine, which'd be Panasonic's to implement and maintain.
post #8046 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbsidlov View Post

FWIW, I just started Netflix and THOR on the 210, and my optical out was DD 5.1 according to my receiver.

I just tried it. I realized that I had one optical connection to my system, from this PC to the AVR (an Onkyo TX-NR609). I was able to disconnect that (very long) TOSLINK cable from the PC and stretch it over to the BD player without untangling it from the mass of cables running from the PC down behind the desk it's on biggrin.gif. I hooked it up to my old BDT110 and checked it out using Limitless (arbitrarily). I didn't bother figuring out how to get my AVR to play audio from S/PDIF while viewing that HDMI source and just listened to the optical audio with a blank screen. I tried with HDMI Audio Out set ON and OFF and in both instances got 48kHz Dolby D out of the optical (with HDMI Audio Out set to ON I could simultaneously get 48kHz DD+ out of HDMI).
Quote:
What's your internet connection at the unit? I think Netflix demands 5mb at least to do HD and more with 5.1.

Although DD+ 5.1 sound is encoded at twice the bit rate as their stereo sound (384 Kbps vs 192 Kbps) I don't believe that it adjusts that part of the stream around the conditions (available bandwidth, responsiveness of the servers). If you choose 5.1 sound you get 5.1 sound even with the crappy video encodes.
post #8047 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I'm pretty sure that support page is lying about 1080p. I've tested to see if I'm getting 1080p on the 110 (which I really, really ought to get around to selling) with every firmware update. Last time they sadly added the Netflix common UI (the original one had a more powerful browser) but it's still not pulling down 1080p and it still has the black flash problem. Netflix changed the UI that they load into it at start-up but there's been no apparent change to the underlying streaming engine, which'd be Panasonic's to implement and maintain.

yes, it could be lying. I don't think the picture is anywhere near VUDU HDX.... THAT's the quality that I want from any streaming service. Meanwhile I'll continue to use the WDLive, so much easier to navigate and I think the picture is better.

I was looking again at the Netflix page. Isn't it interesting that they don't mention having any systems with 720p and 5.1? Yet we have 5.1 on the units, could Panasonic implemented one without the other? Maybe it's really poor 1080, the low end of bandwidth (or the 2011 units soften up the image so much)
Edited by sbsidlov - 8/22/12 at 9:09pm
post #8048 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbsidlov View Post

I was looking again at the Netflix page. Isn't it interesting that they don't mention having any systems with 720p and 5.1? Yet we have 5.1 on the units, could Panasonic implemented one without the other? Maybe it's really poor 1080, the low end of bandwidth (or the 2011 units soften up the image so much)
I believe that all but one of the first Netflix players with 5.1 sound had only 720p video--the PS3 was the first Netflix player with 1080p and 5.1, launched in October 2010, followed by Roku 2 in August of 2011. It wasn't until last summer that they widely released the API for implementing it after which other players started adding it, though most companies did not update the Netflix players in their 2011 devices. The Xbox 360 notably only has support for 720p in Netflix, and I believe that's by design. They seem to have decided that their Zune video product shall be the only service on their box with 1080p video; even their VUDU player lacks HDX.

There is only one 1080p encode for nearly all Netflix titles which feature HD video, encoded at 4800 Kbps average. There are two 720p ones, at 2350 and 3600 Kbps. Add 192 Kbps for stereo or 384 Kbps for 5.1 channel Dolby Digital Plus.
post #8049 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

I know PS3 is not perfect player for odd candences but at least over 99% of blu-ray movie I have are mastered in 1080p/24, so no deinterlacing need to be done and PS3 simply decodes 24p frames off the disc and this is what I assume make PS3 the best. Most standalone player tend to run everything through deinterlacer even it is not needed in 24p situation.
Well that's why cadence detection is so important, if the deinterlacer has proper cadence detection it will know when to bypass the frames and when to apply the deinterlacing (and what kind of deinterlacing).. If the BD110 would shuffle the 24p data through the deinterlacer and it didn't had proper cadence detection then it would try to deinterlace the 24p signal and the result would not be nice, not nice at all. I hardly think that would explain the difference that you see since the result from the BD110 would be horrible if that was the case.

edit: on a second thought, deinterlacing a progressive frame would not necessarily be as bad as I wrote above. it dependes upon the technique used so you might be right, hmm, needs a way to find out if that is what's happening or not.
Edited by F.Ultra - 8/23/12 at 12:53am
post #8050 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

. There are two 720p ones, at 2350 and 3600 Kbps. Add 192 Kbps for stereo or 384 Kbps for 5.1 channel Dolby Digital Plus.

This is a pic of the wireless AP (that I'm beta testing) hosting the 210's connection while playing Limitless on Netflix. The time scale is about 90 seconds. It's a 5Ghz band wifi connection at 162mbps.



Here's the Lan traffic at the wifi router


Edited by sbsidlov - 8/23/12 at 8:22am
post #8051 of 8458
For comparison, here's the wdlive doing the same movie on netflix (I stopped and switched devices):

wifi using the same AP (it's hooked up to a gigabit hub):



lan traffic at the same time:

post #8052 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Ultra View Post

Well that's why cadence detection is so important, if the deinterlacer has proper cadence detection it will know when to bypass the frames and when to apply the deinterlacing (and what kind of deinterlacing).. If the BD110 would shuffle the 24p data through the deinterlacer and it didn't had proper cadence detection then it would try to deinterlace the 24p signal and the result would not be nice, not nice at all. I hardly think that would explain the difference that you see since the result from the BD110 would be horrible if that was the case.
edit: on a second thought, deinterlacing a progressive frame would not necessarily be as bad as I wrote above. it dependes upon the technique used so you might be right, hmm, needs a way to find out if that is what's happening or not.

This is exactly why I think PS3 is superior to pretty much any standalone player with most common 24p material. Do anyone know if there is any standalone player that uses similar technique?
post #8053 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbsidlov View Post

For comparison, here's the wdlive doing the same movie on netflix (I stopped and switched devices):
wifi using the same AP (it's hooked up to a gigabit hub):

I've collected a significant amount of data on streaming player bandwidth consumption using the open-source Tomato firmware running in my venerable old Linksys WRT54G. The firmware features a realtime bandwidth graph which displays a 10 minute window of activity; I grab an image of the graph at the end of the 10 minutes that I'm interested it. It shows total data transmitted/received, peaks and averages. I've primarily collected data from minutes 5-14 of Ong Bak 2, chosen because it has a long, encoder-challenging, high-action sequence near the beginning (martial arts combat in the rain) and because it was available on all the major streaming services that I use, Netflix, Amazon, VUDU and Zune. I've taken data on that segment of the film as streamed from Netflix, Amazon and VUDU for 3 BD players and the Xbox; Netflix and Amazon for the PS3 and Roku 2, Netflix on the TiVo Premiere and PC and Zune on the Xbox.

Here are graphs of the BDT110 running with the latest firmware and Netflix UI with HDMI output resolution set to 1080p and 720p. You can see that they're essentially the same regardless of resolution:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
BDT110V188NewUI1080p51NetflixOngBak2Small.jpg


BDT110V188NewUI720p51NetflixOngBak2.jpg


Here are some graphs of the BDT220, whose Netflix player does play the 1080p encodes:

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
BDT220V1391080p51NetflixOngBak2Small.jpg



BDT220V139720p51NetflixOngBak2Small.jpg

You can see that the data consumed is about 30% higher than on the BDT110. Strangely, it seems that it's now reading the 1080p encode even when resolution is set to 720p. This is unusual--only the TiVo Premiere has been observed to do that before. It's a bit wasteful, though I suppose that there's a possibility that the 1080p encode down-converted to 720p is superior to the 720p native encode.
Edited by michaeltscott - 8/24/12 at 1:51pm
post #8054 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Lebowski View Post

This is exactly why I think PS3 is superior to pretty much any standalone player with most common 24p material. Do anyone know if there is any standalone player that uses similar technique?
Well we do not know if any stand alone player does as you say, it's pure speculation at this point. I just bough the Spears and Munsil and on the 24p test I could see no indication that the BD110 (or BD310 in my case but they should be identical in this matter) did any processing with the image. The interlaced tests where another story completely (I did know that the BD110 messed up the 2:2 cadence but oh my how ugly that looked in reality).
post #8055 of 8458
First gen players used to work that way, ie BD10. Players with source direct definitely do not. I don't know if they do anymore. I don't believe 1080p/24 sources are handled that way anymore unless it detects that your display can't handle it. I could be wrong.

S~
post #8056 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbsidlov View Post

What's your internet connection at the unit? I think Netflix demands 5mb at least to do HD and more with 5.1. The support page says it does 1080p and 5.1 now. http://support.netflix.com/en/node/517#gsc.tab=0
I checked my Audio Out submenu:
DD > Bitstream
DTS> Bitstream
Secondary Audio = ON
PCM Downmix = OFF
Downmix = Surround
7.1 = Auto
High Clarity Sound = Disable

Currently I have a very cheap $20.00 router from Belkin as my roommate has a laptop and she wants to "roam" all over the house. Believe it or not, this has been a very good router for what it is, and has never needed to be reset in the 14 months since she bought it.
The router is up stairs streaming to the 210 downstairs. I can't put the router downstairs as my modem is upstairs in my office.The picture is definatly not 1080p, but still a very good picture. If I could just get 5.1 audio frown.gif

Anyway, I thought I'd try and replace the Belkin and ordered a new and hopefully much better router. An Asus RT-N53 which is dual band, but I suspect that the Panasonic 210's built in wi-fi is 2.4GHz and not 5GHz. I don't know much about the wireless thing as I've never used, or needed it until she moved in.
Edited by ferrari fan - 8/24/12 at 3:05pm
post #8057 of 8458
I have done some more testing, if one sets the display to be 1080i then it converts 24p to 60i unless 24p is enabled in the settings, in that case it sends a 24p signal even though the display is set to 1080i. This I take as a sign that 24p signals (if 24p is enabled) bypasses all processing.
post #8058 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

Currently I have a very cheap $20.00 router from Belkin as my roommate has a laptop and she wants to "roam" all over the house. Believe it or not, this has been a very good router for what it is, and has never needed to be reset in the 14 months since she bought it.
The router is upsatairs streaming to the 210 downstairs. I can't put the router downstairs as my modem is upstairs in my office.The picture is definatly not 1080p, but still a very good picture. If I could just get 5.1.
Anyway, I thought I'd try and replace the Belkin and ordered a new and hopefully much better router. An Asus RT-N53 which is dual band, but I suspect that the Panasonic 210's built in wi-fi is 2.4GHz and not 5GHz. I don't know much about the wireless thing as I've never used, or needed it until she moved in.
The player upports both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz, atleast the BD310 does since I have used both bands (I currently run it on 5GHz).
post #8059 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

, but I suspect that the Panasonic 210's built in wi-fi is 2.4GHz and not 5GHz..

it has both. smile.gif
post #8060 of 8458
Correct. X10 models had dual band. Dropped in the X20/500.

S~
post #8061 of 8458
My 210 has been locked into a 5 GHz network for over a year and has never lost the connection.
post #8062 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Ultra View Post

The player upports both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz, atleast the BD310 does since I have used both bands (I currently run it on 5GHz).

Is there a way to select just 5GHz in the Panasonic ? if not, then I assume that you can just "turn off" 2.4 GHz in the router ? Again, please forgive me as I know nothing about routers / wireless streaming. Thanks.
post #8063 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari fan View Post

Is there a way to select just 5GHz in the Panasonic ? if not, then I assume that you can just "turn off" 2.4 GHz in the router ? Again, please forgive me as I know nothing about routers / wireless streaming. Thanks.
When you add your WLANs in your router you have to give the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz different SSIDs (and you can usually disable either one). So in order to connect with the 5Ghz band you simply tell your player to connect to the SSID that you gave your 5Ghz.
post #8064 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by F.Ultra View Post

When you add your WLANs in your router you have to give the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz different SSIDs (and you can usually disable either one). So in order to connect with the 5Ghz band you simply tell your player to connect to the SSID that you gave your 5Ghz.

Thanks for the instructions.
post #8065 of 8458
Howdy, folks. I have been unable to find this issue discussed; if I missed it, I apologize. Likewise, if this is not the best forum, I apologize.

I have a BDT210. It has the latest 1.88 firmware update. I brought up Netflix today for the first time in several weeks. It required a login and a selection of Netflix or Netflix for kids (something like that). I picked Netflix and the display on my TV is pretty unusable. It is as if the entire Netflix has been shifted left, and the right third of the screen is taken up with a description of whatever film happens to be highlighted. All I can see are 4 movie thumbnails in each horizontal scroller. I cannot browse genres or see anything on the left; I can see just a thin slice of the next thumbnail.

What I did: reset player to factory defaults; powered off, on, logged in to Netflix, no change.
Deactivated device from Netflix on TV; powered off, on, logged in to Netflix, no change.
Tried to deactivate from the Netflix website; it appeared to work, but I noticed no effect on the TV.

I called Netflix, who suggested, logout/login, factory reset. When I explained I had done all that, the rep said there is a Panasonic firmware update for Netflix dated today, 8/26, and I should update the player. She was very confident about this updae.

Well, the player says I have the latest, 1.88, which has been out for a while. I checked the Panasonic website as well, and it concurred: 1.88.

Any idea what is going on? Has Panasonic just not made the update available yet? Was the rep blowing smoke?

Any suggestions?

thanks, bws
post #8066 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbas45 View Post

I picked Netflix and the display on my TV is pretty unusable. It is as if the entire Netflix has been shifted left, and the right third of the screen is taken up with a description of whatever film happens to be highlighted. All I can see are 4 movie thumbnails in each horizontal scroller. I cannot browse genres or see anything on the left; I can see just a thin slice of the next thumbnail.

Does what you see displayed look like this?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
P8280742.JPG

If so, that's just the new Netflix common UI. They switched from the one originally on the BDTx10s:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
DSCN1319.JPG

with the latest update. It's a shame, because the old one was definitely more powerful, but Netflix seems to have standardized on this new one (which can hardly be called "unusable" rolleyes.gif) across all devices. I have a BDT110, BDT220, Sony BDP-S390, PS3 and TiVo Premiere and they all have that UI (the PS3 started with the one originally on the BDTx10s but switched over a year ago).
post #8067 of 8458
Yes, that's it. Okay, if not unusable, it's much less usable and highly annoying. It is hard to understand why they would do this. Obviously they have the genre attribute. Online I can at least guess the name of a genre and search on that (as you can a movie or actor); that's still crippled from what it was before. So now I have to go online to Netflix, or otherwise find the name of a movie in order to search for it via the BDT210. Or place it in my queue online. they must have got a new VP who thought he'd show how smart he is by degrading the user experience.

Of course, now I can only see a little scroller for my queue or any of their suggestions, rather than a whole screen full at a time. Unless there is some way I haven't found to switch from looking at four thumbnails to a full table of them.

Wow. That is pretty lame. Hmm. Since I have Amazon Prime, maybe I'll just drop Netflix, not that they'll miss me. I've been a customer for over 7 years.

And to think that the Netflix customer service rep was just blowing smoke. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Hey, thanks for answering so quickly.

bws
post #8068 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbas45 View Post

Yes, that's it. Okay, if not unusable, it's much less usable and highly annoying. It is hard to understand why they would do this. Obviously they have the genre attribute. Online I can at least guess the name of a genre and search on that (as you can a movie or actor); that's still crippled from what it was before.

Actually, before you could not search for an actor or director, which you can now (it splits the search results into matching titles and matching people). And it does give you a bunch of rows of genres (after a bunch of rows of suggestions based on what you've watched and what you've told it that you like online). I see genre rows for TV Shows, Action & Adventure, Anime, Children & Family, Comedies, Documentaries, Dramas, Foreign, Horror, Independent, Romantic, Sci Fi & Fantasy, Sports and Thrillers. Then there's suggestion rows (based on my viewing and specified preferences) for Top 10 for Michael, Popular on Netflix, Critically Acclaimed, Witty, Alien Sci Fi, Dark and three rows of "Because you watched...". Finally, there are rows for New Releases and Recently added. It's not the rich assortment of genres and subgenres that you had before (and there's a cap of 75 titles per each when the old player could show up to 250), but it's more than a few categories to browse.

True, you can only see 4 (and a half) thumbs in each row at a time instead of 10 that you could see before, but you can go forward and back by three at a time with the FF and REW keys, and the rows wrap around. It's really not that terrible to use.

Since they base the UI on HTML5 running in the Webkit environment they can change it at any time and they tried many different variations out with users of various platforms before deciding on this one, some more powerful and some less. My guess is that they wanted to standardize on one across as many platforms as possible and this was the most capable one which fit in the available memory of the largest number of devices.
Edited by michaeltscott - 8/27/12 at 2:42pm
post #8069 of 8458
Well I didn't want to go through all 270 pages of this thread but I'm wondering if any of you have the Panasonic DMP-BDT310 and how good is it? Someone is offering it on Kijiji for $50 cause they are looking to get a PS3. So I was going to offer to trade them and have them pay the difference cause if I did sell my PS3 (120GB) I'd likely sell for about $150. Would it even be a good trade?? I don't really play games anymore.
post #8070 of 8458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck31 View Post

Well I didn't want to go through all 270 pages of this thread but I'm wondering if any of you have the Panasonic DMP-BDT310 and how good is it? Someone is offering it on Kijiji for $50 cause they are looking to get a PS3. So I was going to offer to trade them and have them pay the difference cause if I did sell my PS3 (120GB) I'd likely sell for about $150. Would it even be a good trade?? I don't really play games anymore.
Depends on what you want to do with it. If you want to do much Netflix or file streaming, you're better off keeping your PS3. Otherwise $50 isn't bad if it's in good condition and is to be used only for discs.
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