Official Panasonic DMP-BDT110/210/310 Owners Thread - Page 274

When the disc is playing, hit the Display button. Under Play you will find the Pop Out Level. I have mine at Zero. Also when the disc is play the 3D button is active, you can also get into other settings when it's set to Manual.

Has the NO ANALOG AUDIO OUT while playing Blu-rays (using HDMI for video) been fixed in latest firmware or is it still a limitation of the x10 series? Anyone know if the x20 series allows it?

Don't know about the *20 series, but the analog outs do not work (and will never work) on the *10 series IF you are outputting 24p via HDMI (analog audio does work if you disable 24p output, or if you use a digital-to-analog converter). I bought the converter from Monoprice and it works just fine.

Ok thanks for the reply. Anyone else try this on the BD77/87 or BDT220?

thanks

You should ask in the 220 thread.

I can't decide whether to set the deep color to auto or off. Is there any evidence as to which setting I should use? My tv is a Sony ex500.

Set it to off, there is no benefit using deep color, but there is potential for a lot of headaches with HDMI.

Do ang tvs support deep color? My Sony ex500 is a 2010 model. And it sounds like I should set the output to 422 instead of 444?

my gt25 supports standard (16-235) and non-standard (0-255) color. If it is set to Auto it switches to whatever is being sent. The question is if the player isn't set/forced to send non-standard, why should it? The GT's manual says 'Prevents blown out highlights and blocked up shadows when a wide range signal is received'. So if you're getting blown out highlights you need to force it to standard. Is there any disc that forces deep color? The answer to that is no since all blue ray disc are actually coded to 4:2:0 so there shouldn't be any benefit to setting the player to 4:4:4. but some people think there is more banding if you don't.... everything has to be set the same way if you want to force the 4:4:4

Sorry to be a nitpick, sbsidlov, but to my understanding, Deep Color is all about depth (30/36/48 bits vs 24bits), whereas Color Mode (YCbCr 4:2:2 vs 4:4:4) is about Chroma Subsampling. The two are almost completely unrelated -- except they both increase HDMI bandwidth requirement.

Chroma subsampling doesn't cut down the number of bits used to describe color; it skips color information (chroma) entirely for some pixels in order to save space and bandwidth. This affects mostly edge detail and occasionally banding. As you point out, all discs (and most streaming sources) are 4:2:0, which only includes chroma (Cb and Cr) for every other line respectively. Eventually, it must be converted to 4:4:4 (full chroma for all pixels and all lines).

Since our Pannies cannot output 4:2:0 directly to the TV, we can either let them do a partial up-sampling (to 4:2:2) and let the TV do the rest (to 4:4:4) OR we can let the Panny do the entire up-sampling to 4:4:4. With Panasonic's Uniphier chip enabled on the Panny (Advanced Chroma Process setting) I prefer letting it do the entire up-sampling in one step. That way my (old) TV only has to convert to RGB -- which is probably best left to the display device anyway.

Another reason is I prefer this is because 4:2:0 (on the disc) has full horizontal chroma sampling (the subsampling is only vertically) whereas 4:2:2 has horizontal subsampling. Hence I conclude with the 4:2:2 setting, chroma has to be removed horizontally in the 4:2:0 -> 4:2:2 process (in the player) and added again through interpolation in the 4:2:2 -> 4:4:4 process (in the TV). That's actual data loss because of the two-step process.

In any case, color mode 4:4:4 DOES increase HDMI bandwidth by 33% compared to 4:2:2. With poor cables (or on older TVs like mine) that can occasionally be an issue.

Other than the increased bandwidth, I don't understand why you would disable Deep Color. Isn't that more likely to increase banding, as you have fewer bits to describe each band in a gradation? Admittedly, your source must be Deep Color too -- but again, we're not sending pixels straight from the disc anyway.

I have taken much heat in this forum for this position, particularly from followers of hometheaterhifi.com, who recommended the 4:2:2 setting across the board after they started doing HDMI Analyzer tests. I am not a video engineer, and if someone can explain where my logic is wrong, I'll definitely listen.

Thank you both for your info and opinions. Another question, is there ever a reason to output in RGB from our Panny players to an HDTV?

Another question. When I have the player set to 444, the picture is noticably more juiced up and amplified looking, almost too much so. Yet the 422 Signal tends to look soft in comparison. Any thoughts on this?

There is also a black level setting that comes into play as well as super resolution and detail enhancement. I'd personally stick with 422 since the discs are authored that way and tweak the black level until I got an accurate picture. The color space shouldn't affect softness, only gradients and highs/lows. You really should use a calibration disc so you don't have to eyeball it.

My DMP-BDT310 Randomly shuts down in the middle of a movie....Has anyone else had this problem?

does the panasonic blu ray player dmp -bdt 110 have cinavia protection on it

No.

mdavej, that was actually the entire point I was trying to convey: YCbCr 4:2:2 vs 4:4:4 has no effect on color space or color rendering or bit depth, although that's a common misconception. It only affects the process used to interpolate color data back into the picture, which was stripped from some pixels when they were saved on the disc.

The disc contains 4:2:0 (NOT 4:2:2) and sending it unmodified to the TV is not an option with this player. I believe Oppo and some others can.

sl@cker: The visual difference between YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 settings on the player should be very subtle -- and it should be in details and smoothness, NOT in color rendering. Red and blue should still be red and blue regardless of this setting.

IF there is a pronounced difference -- and certainly if there is a difference in how colors are rendered -- it's because the TV is doing something funny. Try and set the TV's HDMI Setting to Auto (which I assume it has) then switch between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 on the player. You should see (at most) a subtle difference in edge detail and maybe (just maybe) in gradation smoothness.

RGB settings on the player is a different matter: That could change colors significantly. I would not choose that.

I apologize for being so insistent about this, but until someone can tell me -- in specific terms -- how it works differently, I'll keep repeating it.

Update: Oh, and no disagreement on the merits of calibration, black levels settings etc
Edited by Brandenborg - 12/13/12 at 4:48pm

Well, I'm finding this whole discussion interesting and informative and I stand corrected on the issues.

However, the original question is regarding deep color. On the 210 the setting is either Auto or Off -- my HDTV has no setting but supports deep color (though I have no idea which bitrate). The only other setting is the standard or non-standard RGB (or auto). How do the handshakes work? Lowest common denominator or 'best picture' preferred? You can't force the 210 to deep color.

I've noticed this too (I use Sony and Oppo players by the way). The black level is changing giving the picture a washed out look and I don't know why. It is not consistent, forcing an HDMI handshake sometimes clears it. My display is an HDFury3 in case that matters.

Yes, yes, you're right, back to Deep Color. I tend to get carried away on certain subjects

I was surprised to see moxie's recommendation to disable Deep Color on the Panny. To me, keeping Deep Color enabled was always a no-brainer, being very aware of the limitations of 8 bits (24 bits color) from my past life in prepress. As I wrote in my last response to you, increased HDMI bandwidth is the only reason I can think of to turn it off.

Like yours, my Mits TV also supports Deep Color, but doesn't have a setting to force it. So I set my Panny to Deep Color=Auto, leaving HDMI handshake to turn it on. I know it works, because my TV has an issue at high bandwidth, which is solved when I disable Deep Color on the player (OR if I switch to YCbCr 4:2:2, which also saves bandwidth). Oddly, but fortunately, the bandwidth issue (losing audio in some VieraCast apps) only occurs on SD content. Since we never watch SD in this home, I can keep both Deep Color and 4:4:4 enabled -- the way I want it.

Before getting this player I briefly tested a Vizio. It was fairly nice, and allowed Deep Color to be forced and depth to be specified (30, 36 or 48 bits). That player never caused any HDMI bandwidth problems with my TV, even at high settings. Panasonic and Mitsubshi have admitted that there are handshake problems between the two, and I've come to live with it.

As I also mentioned in my last response to you, the fact that most content isn't Deep Color anyway, is often used to argue that this setting it's necessary -- or even wrong. But once again, I beg to disagree, because source content isn't sent directly to the TV anyway. That's what is often overlooked in these discussions, and what makes it different from the heydays of Hi-Fi.

Even with all settings turned off, there is processing taking place in the player. At the very least the chroma up-sampling from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2; if Advanced Chroma is enabled (as I have it) there's probably more; and if any other video settings are enabled there is a lot more. Then it's processed further in the TV: If 4:2:2 is used, the TV will have to up-sample chroma to 4:4:4; and finally convert it to RGB, compensating for display technology (DLP, LCD, plasma) and applying whatever calibrations and picture settings.

24 bits (8 bits per channel) means BAD rounding errors in all this processing, probably reducing effective depth to 6 bits per channel. 6 bits is NOTHING, only 64 shades -- or even fewer depending on black level setting. Now we're talking serious banding!

I am sure Panasonic (and all vendors) use 48 bits internally in order to avoid such rounding errors. But imagine if halfway through the processing, the data is truncated to 24 bits (because Deep Color is disabled), sent across HDMI, then processing continued in the TV at 48 bits. It's gonna hurt accuracy and PQ.

That's why I have my player set to Deep Color enabled (Auto) and YCbCr 4:4:4. It reduces the number of processing steps (only one chroma up-sampling instead of two); it avoids loss of horizontal chroma during the intermediate 4:2:2 step (as described in my first rant ); and it avoids or reduces rounding errors in the combined processing taking place as video travels from the source to the screen.

Once again, I am not a video engineer, I am just applying logic and some old prepress knowledge. I would love to hear from somebody with actual experience in designing these devices, telling me if or where I am wrong. If I am wasting HDMI bandwidth for no reason (triggering handshake bugs on my TV or even distorting my signal) I would surely like to know it
Edited by Brandenborg - 12/14/12 at 10:21am

Sl@cker and AVfile: I wonder if the reason you're seeing color/contrast differences between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 (which shouldn't be the case) is because the higher HDMI bandwidth at 4:4:4 forces your TV to drop Deep Color. That could explain a change in contrast.

I would test shorter and/or better HDMI cables (to help width bandwidth). And again, TV HDMI settings on Auto (if it isn't already).

Sounds like sl@acker saw exaggerated contrast whereas AVfile saw reduced contrast. Try and compare Black Level settings between you -- and verify what you're each seeing at 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 respectively.

Regardless, you shouldn't see differences of that magnitude. If everything is working correctly, you should be seeing only subtle differences between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2. Most people wouldn't see them at all. And it shouldn't be differences in color/contrast.

If you cannot eliminate it, I would say chose 4:2:2. Something is wrong, and you're better off having a color/contrast correct picture, even if there are minute losses in edge detail.

sl@acker: LOL, our posts must have just crossed each other. Hope you see this.
Edited by Brandenborg - 12/14/12 at 10:52am

There definitely is a noticeable difference in the picture for me, going between 422 and 444. The brightness level is higher, and whites not so hot and juiced up on 422. On 444, whites/contrast are more juiced up and hot looking, and blacks/brightness are darker. I'm viewing on a Sony 46EX500.

whats your opinion on the black level setting? use lighter or darker...?

Mine is left at the default Brighter setting. That's how I calibrated my TV -- and it looks great.

But to be honest, I never spent much time on this one, so I cannot give a fully informed answer. In the days of analog component connections, the black level setting was critical (0 vs 7.5 IRE). The same may still be true with HDMI and RGB output. But with YCbCr and Deep Color over HDMI I have a hard time figuring what this one does exactly.

I'd love information from others on this as well.

I suppose if the TV has different black level settings (16-235 vs 0-255) it could be important to match settings on the player. That's why I suggested AVfile and sl@acker compare theirs.

My Mits TV has no HDMI settings at all, other than the HDMI Control one (its exact name escapes me) that allows my TV remote to control the Panny over HDMI. So I rely entirely on HDMI handshake to get the connection right based on the Panny's settings. Even though I do have some minor handshake bugs (dropped audio on some SD content in some Viera Cast apps) I have had zero issues with PQ between these two. And trust me, I would have noticed if I did

Hey, this reminds me of something else for AVfile and sl@acker to check: HDMI output resolution (720p, 1080i, 1080p or Auto). On some TVs contrast and color can change quite dramatically on different input resolutions. I saw that with the Toshiba TV I had before.

I thought that black level setting only affected standard dvds?

I don't think so - if, as an example you are streaming a Netflix film - you can see the impact of the Black level adjustment by toggling between the two settings. After many months it;s still unclear to me weather to use the 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 settings, and I'm curious how may forum members utilize the other adjustment features, including the fine tuning option?

I'm referring to the black level setting in the home menu. You cant toggle that setting while watching a video.

more specifically, as of the latest firmware 1.88, it doesn't. Who knows what future firmware brings.

You are wrong - it has Cinavia

Blu-Ray certification requires all Blu-Ray players to SUPPORT IT