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Hsu VTF-15H or dual Outlaw LFM-1 EXs

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Thanks to the generosity of an AVS member, I had the opportunity last night to listen extensively to a Hsu VTF-15H and an Outlaw LFM-1 EX, both music and home theater. Both are fantastic subs. The impression I got is that both are highly musical, and both can play easily and clearly down to 16 Hz. (The Hsu may have been playing down a little deeper still, but I can't audibly distinguish much below 16.) The Hsu had a bit more power than the Outlaw, but that was expected.

Assume for the sake of argument that I could get the Hsu or dual Outlaws for approximately equal cost. What are the advantages and disadvantages of dual 12s over a single 15, for both music and HT? (I will use the sub(s) for both). I intend near field placement (not enough space on my far field wall for any subs).

Thanks!
post #2 of 22
The main advantage of the dual subs over the more powerful single sub is the potential for a much smoother overall room response that multiple subs can deliver when placed and set up properly. The advantage should be noticeable with both HT and music, but from my experience, it is music that shows the most improvement with a smooth in-room response.
post #3 of 22
^ Agreed, with the one caveat being that without a way to measure them, he could make a bad room response worse with two subs. No doubt that the inability of 90% of users out there to see what they're hearing leads to so many of the sub arguments.
post #4 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder240 View Post

Thanks to the generosity of an AVS member, I had the opportunity last night to listen extensively to a Hsu VTF-15H and an Outlaw LFM-1 EX, both music and home theater. Both are fantastic subs. The impression I got is that both are highly musical, and both can play easily and clearly down to 16 Hz. (The Hsu may have been playing down a little deeper still, but I can't audibly distinguish much below 16.) The Hsu had a bit more power than the Outlaw, but that was expected.

Assume for the sake of argument that I could get the Hsu or dual Outlaws for approximately equal cost. What are the advantages and disadvantages of dual 12s over a single 15, for both music and HT? (I will use the sub(s) for both). I intend near field placement (not enough space on my far field wall for any subs).

Thanks!

Hi! I've been looking for someone who has heard both of these subs!!! I'm in the exact same postion as you! I've been going back and forth on getting the Outlaw EX or the HSU VTF15!

So, from your opinon they sound extremely similar? Do you mind going into a bit more detail about the differences that you noticed? This would help me out a great deal and could potentially save me money. I will use mine for mostly HT, but I do listen to music quite often, and for long periods of time, so Music quailty is most certianly high on my list.

THANKS!
post #5 of 22
Another big advantage of dual subs is it can defeat localization, especially if you co-locate them with your front left/rights. One sub might give too much weight to one side of the room, and be distracting, as it was for me. I added two LFM-1 EXs to my system, and what a great addition that proved to be. Everything sounds perfectly even.

I believe Peter Marcks, the Hsu rep, said that the VTF-15H is about twice as powerful as the VTF3, and since the LFM-1 EX is mostly a clone of the VTF3, you get some reference as to how powerful they are with respect to each other. The VTF-15H should have more output capability than even two LFM-1 EXs (unless you put both LFMs in the same place), but two LFMs should make for a more even sound overall, so that is a tough decision. One thing you could do is get one VTF-15H now and add another later if you find localization to be an issue, thereby getting the best of both worlds.

Whatever you settle on, you will win because they are both terrific subwoofers, and you can't go wrong with either choice.
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder240 View Post

... both can play easily and clearly down to 16 Hz. (The Hsu may have been playing down a little deeper still, but I can't audibly distinguish much below 16.)

The way this is worded makes me wonder if you are estimating that the subs were playing at 16Hz or if you were listening to test tones and could not hear anything below 16Hz.
If you don't mind, please clarify what you mean.
post #7 of 22
To the op, did you hear these two subs together? If so, do they integrate well together? I have the outlaw lfm1-ex and wonder if I should get another, or step up a little and get a vtf-15h to go with my outlaw.
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkl525 View Post

To the op, did you hear these two subs together? If so, do they integrate well together? I have the outlaw lfm1-ex and wonder if I should get another, or step up a little and get a vtf-15h to go with my outlaw.

If you don't mid will you tell me how you like your LFM1 EX? Also what kind of set up do you have and do you use more for movies or music?? Thanks, trying to make up my mind lol.
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgraham81 View Post

If you don't mid will you tell me how you like your LFM1 EX? Also what kind of set up do you have and do you use more for movies or music?? Thanks, trying to make up my mind lol.

No problem! I love my ex, particularly because of the versatility. In max extension mode, it digs deep, great for movies. In max output mode, it still is musical enough to provide an enjoyable listening experience. Max extension (plug in), to me, is tighter and more articulate, but doesn't have as much output as the max output setting (plug out). I use my sub for 75% movies, 25% music. My setup is a Denon 3310ci used as a pre/pro with a B&K 7250 II amp, Polk Rti A7 fronts, Csi A6 center, and Fxi A6 surrounds in a 5.2 setup. The other sub is an old Velodyne CHT-12 sub that intergrates pretty well with the LFM 1-EX. My room is @ 2500 cu. ft.
post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkl525 View Post

No problem! I love my ex, particularly because of the versatility. In max extension mode, it digs deep, great for movies. In max output mode, it still is musical enough to provide an enjoyable listening experience. Max extension (plug in), to me, is tighter and more articulate, but doesn't have as much output as the max output setting (plug out). I use my sub for 75% movies, 25% music. My setup is a Denon 3310ci used as a pre/pro with a B&K 7250 II amp, Polk Rti A7 fronts, Csi A6 center, and Fxi A6 surrounds in a 5.2 setup. The other sub is an old Velodyne CHT-12 sub that intergrates pretty well with the LFM 1-EX. My room is @ 2500 cu. ft.

Thanks! Very helpful info! I'm considering getting one then adding one later, or just biting the bullet and getting the HSU VTF15
post #11 of 22
Thread Starter 
Wow, thanks for all the responses. Shady, Mike, Sb, thanks for explaining the dual 12/single 15 tradeoff.

Before I provide the additional details requested, I want to disclaim that my test procedure was (a) subjective, and (b) only systematic to the extent that I played the same music and watched the same scenes with both subs. I did not listen to test tones last night, and I was unable to test the subs on identical systems, at the same time, or in the same room. Therefore, what I have are impressions of the two subs, and I do not mean to imply that they are anything more than that. My intent with this thread was to focus on the potential benefits (or disadvantages) of dual smaller subs, not to provide a review that would inform others' buying decisions. That said, since there have been requests for additional detail, I am happy to describe my impressions more fully. If you will find this of little value, please skip over it!

For the two subs, I listened to tracks by Diana Krall, Eva Cassidy (if you haven't heard her Live at Blues Alley album, there is some sweet electric bass), Duke Ellington, the Glory soundrack, Tupac, Outkast, and Black Eyed Peas. I also watched the cannon scene from Master and Commander, the Normandy landing scene from Saving Private Ryan, and a portion of the Iwo Jima battle in the Pacific vol. 4. The LFM-1 EX was in a room that was between 2000 and 3000 cu ft, while the VTF-15H was in a larger room that was closer to 5000 cu ft. Both subs were far field, and both were connected to Denon receivers (2911 for the LFM, 3808 for the VTF).

Both subs did a phenomenal job of reproducing the sound of Diana Krall's double bass. If I have to go with one or the other, I think the LFM may have captured the orchestral feel from Glory a little better than the VTF.

With the ports open on the VTF, I was able to directionalize the sub's sound somewhat, but that sense of directionality vanished with the ports plugged. By the same token, on one of Krall's tracks (I forget which) there the double bass plays in unison with other instruments, and I felt that with the ports open, it did not feel quite as 'together' as with ports plugged. I had no sense of directionality from the LFM, and the same track sounded totally together, even more so than with the plugged Hsu. So based on this, I feel that the LFM integrated better than the Hsu (however, since they used different test speakers, it might not be fair to knock the Hsu for this). It's also possible that this is due to the LFM's downward firing design vs the Hsu's forward firing design (I'm not sure if this would account for the difference).

I felt that the VTF (ports open and plugged) gave the electric bass in Eva Cassidy's "What a Wonderful World" and the synthesized bass in Tupac's "I ain't mad at cha" a slightly more textured sound, while with the LFM it sounded a little more rounded. I believe that the texture is intended, which gives the VTF the edge here. This may be due to the Hsu's driver being a hair faster (surprising considering it is larger). I got similar impression with fast temp Black Eyed Peas music, where the VTF appeared to keep up with the rapid base movement without compromising the tonality slightly better than the LFM,\\.

The power was the most noticeable difference between the two. With the sub level set to -11 on each of the receivers, in a more close space, I had to adjust the volume up quite a bit to achieve to achieve the same perceived power from the LFM. However, I did not notice any distortion even with the volume quite high. I did not try to push either sub to its limit, and I cannot speak for how much output either sub can give before distorting.

chashint, regarding my statement about 16 hz, I'll clarify. Although I didn't listen to test tones last night, I've listened to them before, and I've found that 16 is the lowest frequency that I can meaningfully distinguish one tone from another. Below that, I can hear/feel (some combination of the two) the difference between lower tones and higher tones, but it gets awful muddy for me. So yes, this was an impression, not a measurement (although an informed impression). I'm confident that both subs were getting down that low and possibly lower, but the I gave the edge to the Hsu based on the lowest cannon shot in "Master and Commander". The Hsu gave me a rumble on that cannot shot which I didn't get from the LFM. However I still felt plenty of rumble during that scene from the LFM.

So to summarize, if I have to give advantages to either, they'd be as follows:

Power: VTF
Speed: VTF (slightly)
Tonality: LFM (slightly)
"Integratability" (if that's even different from tonality): LFM (slightly)
Bass extension: VTF (slightly)

One last note. I noticed the Outlaw hit harder on one particular mid bass tone. I think that this was an artifact of the room, and I don't count that among my impressions of the two subs.

tgraham, I hope that's helpful!
post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunder240 View Post

Wow, thanks for all the responses. Shady, Mike, Sb, thanks for explaining the dual 12/single 15 tradeoff.

Before I provide the additional details requested, I want to disclaim that my test procedure was (a) subjective, and (b) only systematic to the extent that I played the same music and watched the same scenes with both subs. I did not listen to test tones last night, and I was unable to test the subs on identical systems, at the same time, or in the same room. Therefore, what I have are impressions of the two subs, and I do not mean to imply that they are anything more than that. My intent with this thread was to focus on the potential benefits (or disadvantages) of dual smaller subs, not to provide a review that would inform others' buying decisions. That said, since there have been requests for additional detail, I am happy to describe my impressions more fully. If you will find this of little value, please skip over it!

For the two subs, I listened to tracks by Diana Krall, Eva Cassidy (if you haven't heard her Live at Blues Alley album, there is some sweet electric bass), Duke Ellington, the Glory soundrack, Tupac, Outkast, and Black Eyed Peas. I also watched the cannon scene from Master and Commander, the Normandy landing scene from Saving Private Ryan, and a portion of the Iwo Jima battle in the Pacific vol. 4. The LFM-1 EX was in a room that was between 2000 and 3000 cu ft, while the VTF-15H was in a larger room that was closer to 5000 cu ft. Both subs were far field, and both were connected to Denon receivers (2911 for the LFM, 3808 for the VTF).

Both subs did a phenomenal job of reproducing the sound of Diana Krall's double bass. If I have to go with one or the other, I think the LFM may have captured the orchestral feel from Glory a little better than the VTF.

With the ports open on the VTF, I was able to directionalize the sub's sound somewhat, but that sense of directionality vanished with the ports plugged. By the same token, on one of Krall's tracks (I forget which) there the double bass plays in unison with other instruments, and I felt that with the ports open, it did not feel quite as 'together' as with ports plugged. I had no sense of directionality from the LFM, and the same track sounded totally together, even more so than with the plugged Hsu. So based on this, I feel that the LFM integrated better than the Hsu (however, since they used different test speakers, it might not be fair to knock the Hsu for this). It's also possible that this is due to the LFM's downward firing design vs the Hsu's forward firing design (I'm not sure if this would account for the difference).

I felt that the VTF (ports open and plugged) gave the electric bass in Eva Cassidy's "What a Wonderful World" and the synthesized bass in Tupac's "I ain't mad at cha" a slightly more textured sound, while with the LFM it sounded a little more rounded. I believe that the texture is intended, which gives the VTF the edge here. This may be due to the Hsu's driver being a hair faster (surprising considering it is larger). I got similar impression with fast temp Black Eyed Peas music, where the VTF appeared to keep up with the rapid base movement without compromising the tonality slightly better than the LFM,\\.

The power was the most noticeable difference between the two. With the sub level set to -11 on each of the receivers, in a more close space, I had to adjust the volume up quite a bit to achieve to achieve the same perceived power from the LFM. However, I did not notice any distortion even with the volume quite high. I did not try to push either sub to its limit, and I cannot speak for how much output either sub can give before distorting.

chashint, regarding my statement about 16 hz, I'll clarify. Although I didn't listen to test tones last night, I've listened to them before, and I've found that 16 is the lowest frequency that I can meaningfully distinguish one tone from another. Below that, I can hear/feel (some combination of the two) the difference between lower tones and higher tones, but it gets awful muddy for me. So yes, this was an impression, not a measurement (although an informed impression). I'm confident that both subs were getting down that low and possibly lower, but the I gave the edge to the Hsu based on the lowest cannon shot in "Master and Commander". The Hsu gave me a rumble on that cannot shot which I didn't get from the LFM. However I still felt plenty of rumble during that scene from the LFM.

So to summarize, if I have to give advantages to either, they'd be as follows:

Power: VTF
Speed: VTF (slightly)
Tonality: LFM (slightly)
"Integratability" (if that's even different from tonality): LFM (slightly)
Bass extension: VTF (slightly)

One last note. I noticed the Outlaw hit harder on one particular mid bass tone. I think that this was an artifact of the room, and I don't count that among my impressions of the two subs.

tgraham, I hope that's helpful!

WOW, That was great! VERY HELPFUL! After reading this I think I can save a bit of money and get me an LFM, and then add another later. Or even take the money I was going to use for one VTF and get 2 LFM's. I really apperciate the detail, and good luck on your choice! Thanks!
post #13 of 22
I use twin LFM-1EX subs, along with an SMS-1. I'll be honest, as much as I want to upgrade I can't find a pair of subs that will offer an improvement that I feel would be worth the money. My EX subs look terrific, much better than most black boxes. The WAF is very high thanks to the rounded corners and the plexi top, very nice! The variable tuning is a bonus, max output or max extension. Dr. Hsu designed these, and it shows. I would not trade these for most any of the new subs, not until the price was what I consider to be way up there.

edit - I paid $549 each for my subs, shipping included.
post #14 of 22
Comparing the subs in completely different rooms is just for fun and really has no meaning to one another. One would have no idea why one sounds better than the other, it could be many things. You need to hear those subs in the same room and tweaked to the best of their ability to tell the differences between them. The VTF 3.3 is supposed to be an upgrade over the outlaw(a slight one) and the VTF-15H is a big upgrade or the 3.3. You need to get those subs in the same room and tweak.
post #15 of 22
you shouldn't base any sub purchase on the OP's review comparison.

The room was different, the speakers were different, the receivers were different, the integration was different. Heck one room was twice the size!

IF the VTF sub was louder in a room twice the size at the OP says --- then the VTF is quite a bit more sub than the outlaw! The subjective comparison notes are only applicable if your room is of similar size to the rooms he compared.

EVERYTHING else makes way to many comparison variables to say I compared this sub to the other. --- There were no similar test circumstances except for the music selection and the listeners ears!

What you can determine from this is that the Outlaw meets the OP's requirements in a 3000 sq foot room, at a slightly lesser notch than the HSU meets the OP's requirements in a 5000 sq foot room. Anything else is complete speculation with so many variables!
post #16 of 22
I take that into account, very much so, but my room is not as big as the 5000 cub one, so his review actually helps me a lot. I know their are large differences between the rooms he tested, but it makes me feel that I would be happy with an outlaw purchase just as I would be happy with a HSU purchase, so when I consider its a 350 price difference and I could add another Outlaw later if I felt needed at a discounted price I could potentially add even another outlaw with the 700 dollars saved versus 2 vtf15's! 3 outlaws vs one vtf15 sounds like a better bang for the buck. So yes, there were large differences and the listening wasn't exact, but it tells me what I need.
post #17 of 22
Thanks tgraham81.
I appreciate your thoughts on both of these subs.
post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
Hey all, just wanted to let you know that today I bought the Hsu. Pete said it will ship tomorrow, and so I should have it Monday or Tuesday!

Thanks for all who have helped me with sub input on this thread and others. Your input has been hugely helpful, and I know I'll be happy with the purchase.

Just to address the comments regarding the in-comparability of the two subs given the different rooms, I agree that this makes comparison problematic. I tried to be up front about that, and never intended this post to be a review. But I'm glad you drove home the point, lest others be led astray.
post #19 of 22
Can these two subs coexist in the same room together? I know Dr. Hsu designed the Outlaw sub, and designed the VTF-15H with variable tuning much like the Outlaw. Should I get another Outlaw LFM1-EX or get the more powerful VTF-15H and integrate if the sound signatures are similar?
post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkl525 View Post

Can these two subs coexist in the same room together? I know Dr. Hsu designed the Outlaw sub, and designed the VTF-15H with variable tuning much like the Outlaw. Should I get another Outlaw LFM1-EX or get the more powerful VTF-15H and integrate if the sound signatures are similar?

Integrating two different subs is possible, but probably more trouble than worth. I recommend you get a second EX, or buy the VTF-15 and sell your existing EX. Then you could add a second VTF later if you wish. It's much easier to combine two identical subs, and either way you'll have some nice bass!
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridapoolboy View Post

I use twin LFM-1EX subs, along with an SMS-1. I'll be honest, as much as I want to upgrade I can't find a pair of subs that will offer an improvement that I feel would be worth the money. My EX subs look terrific, much better than most black boxes. The WAF is very high thanks to the rounded corners and the plexi top, very nice! The variable tuning is a bonus, max output or max extension. Dr. Hsu designed these, and it shows. I would not trade these for most any of the new subs, not until the price was what I consider to be way up there.

edit - I paid $549 each for my subs, shipping included.

That's a really good price. Did you buy them used or when the company was a start up(I don't really know how long they have been around)?
post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by benclement11 View Post

That's a really good price. Did you buy them used or when the company was a start up(I don't really know how long they have been around)?

They go on sale frequently and include free shipping, you just have to check back often. In addition, they occasionally sell items as B-stock, with full warranty and free shipping as well. One of mine was purchased new on sale, the other as B-stock. The B-stock is usually a return, it was cosmetically perfect.
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