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2 18" LLT Sonotubes: Preliminary Planning - Page 2

post #31 of 85
3/6/11 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

I feel your pain and you should feel confused because after listening to a 650l Q18 and going back to a 350l mach audio you will be left wanting. LOL.

LOL! The Machs do a fine job considering I paid $125 shipped when they first came out.
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post #32 of 85
3/6/11 at 9:47am
Jokes aside, the mach audios are great subs for the money and they do model really well. The new IXL will be a stonking good sub.

cheers

Graham
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post #33 of 85
3/6/11 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post

Jokes aside, the mach audios are great subs for the money and they do model really well. The new IXL will be a stonking good sub.

cheers

Graham

What the specs of the new drivers? Links? Anything you'd know?
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post #34 of 85
3/6/11 at 12:05pm
Nothing as yet. The same goes with the new Blueprint/FI drivers. I guess it just takes time.
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post #35 of 85
3/6/11 at 1:42pm
Thread Starter 
Okay, after a rather steep learning curve with Google Sketch, I've been able to put together some sketches of the sub, and how they will look in my room. My first impression is that these are bigger than I thought! No problem, though! They'll surely elicit a wow factor when I tell people what they are! without further ado...



With regards to this model, it's still a fairly rough sketch. I couldn't figure out how to round the edges, or put the 50mm flare on the port. Edit: Figured it out, but it's getting late. I'll work on a nicer model tomorrow.

















Wow... good things come to those who wait. Well, 11 months and counting...

Looks like I'll have to move the sofa forward to get a second row in. Plan to do a riser maybe mid to late next year. And that ugly sofa will be replaced with two nicer sofas. Or perhaps a front row sofa, and some Ikea chairs modified for the back row.

You can also see in these pictures the extent of my sound treatments. I may or may not put some on the ceiling. I'm hoping since the Klipsch horns are a bit more directional, I can get away without ceiling treatments.

Some of you may be wondering about the treatment in the window. That is an attempt to keep the sound in. These sketches depict 160mm (about 6 inches) of insulation in the windows. I may actually do 320mm. Testing will determine just how much I will have to do, or how loud I can go before I risk noise complaints...

Edit: Oops, looks like I forgot to flip one of the bookshelf speakers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

wouldn't a pair of sealed lms ultra's be okay?

2X LMS 5400 Ultras: $1800
2X Crown XLS2000s: $998
Total: $2700

2X Maelstrom X: $990
2X Crown XLS1500s $798
Total: 1788

What does $912 extra get me?



Sure, louder above 30Hz, but it's beyond reference loud. My design is getting me reference, and not sacrificing SPL in the 9-20Hz range. And I also get a huge pucker factor!
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post #36 of 85
3/6/11 at 5:57pm
You could use a much smaller enclosure with the sealed LMS, albeit at the cost of needing more power. I think that was his point. Smaller enclosure may be worth the money you spend now when you ship them in the future as you mentioned.
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post #37 of 85
3/6/11 at 6:32pm
Plus, the LMS is pinnacle of sound quality. If you want the best you have to pay for it....
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post #38 of 85
3/6/11 at 9:03pm
The other advantage (albeit, more expensive) is that with a sealed LMS you can fit more subs in the same space as a single LLT. More power density.
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post #39 of 85
3/7/11 at 3:10am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedoc2be View Post

You could use a much smaller enclosure with the sealed LMS, albeit at the cost of needing more power. I think that was his point. Smaller enclosure may be worth the money you spend now when you ship them in the future as you mentioned.

Military pays for shipping, and it's by weight. 4' less sonotube (between two subs) won't add up to much... maybe a couple pounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post

Plus, the LMS is pinnacle of sound quality. If you want the best you have to pay for it....

Oh, really? So if I have 15% THD at 30Hz (sealed design), that's somehow an improvement over 2.5% THD at 30Hz (LLT design)?

Please check out these two sub reviews. Both use a TC2000 15" driver, and both use a TA2400 MK-X amplifier.

Sealed Design

Ported Design

The only compromise with LLT is space. Space is not an issue for me, and my wife has seen the above mock-ups, and approves. Why should I pay more for less?
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post #40 of 85
3/7/11 at 3:30am
My personal opinion is that although the LMS is the best driver out there. The amount off them and amplification you would need would make is so expensive and to be honest would you really need any more than 2 LLT's in a room. My room is 17 x 17 feet and my two Q18's in 15 cu ft boxes is way more than enough. Those sonotubes are defo going to be huuuugggeee!

And the distortion is very low on a LLT aswell. He is also only interested in getting reference 115db although I reckon he will be turning up more than that after a few days. LOL.

cheers

Graham
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post #41 of 85
3/7/11 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLW View Post


Military pays for shipping, and it's by weight. 4' less sonotube (between two subs) won't add up to much... maybe a couple pounds.

Oh, really? So if I have 15% THD at 30Hz (sealed design), that's somehow an improvement over 2.5% THD at 30Hz (LLT design)?

Please check out these two sub reviews. Both use a TC2000 15" driver, and both use a TA2400 MK-X amplifier.

Sealed Design

Ported Design

The only compromise with LLT is space. Space is not an issue for me, and my wife has seen the above mock-ups, and approves. Why should I pay more for less?

Check out nonyt's thread on using multiple lms and the THD he was getting. Way better than the comparison you posted.

As far as shipping, even if you dont pay the cost you mentioned some concern over the enclosure tipping or getting damaged. A box of baltic birch is gonna be tougher . That was what i meant.
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post #42 of 85
3/7/11 at 5:39am
Was gibts?

Good luck with the build. I have moved enough times that I would hate to move my subs when the military pays for it. I had moved every year for 5 years straight so I know all to well about cheap labor.

Anyways I live in Australia now and am out of the military.

My crest Pro 7200 series just uses a simple jumper cable to make it run on 220vac. Xti's dont need anything and I think neither do the Tech series from crown. I know the Crown Xti lower series never did well in the testing but I dont know anything about the bigger ones.
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post #43 of 85
3/7/11 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonedoc2be View Post

Check out nonyt's thread on using multiple lms and the THD he was getting. Way better than the comparison you posted.

That distortion measurement was in the 10Hz range where THD doesn't much matter. Also, consider he is running 8 drivers. No one driver has to work extraordinarily hard. The strength of the LLT design lies in the fact that it has low THD all the way down to tuning. Sealed THD starts climbing well before LLT THD does. If you want a meaningful comparison utilizing Notnyt's system, you need to build 8 18" LLTs and run a distortion test.
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post #44 of 85
3/7/11 at 8:21am
Just out off interest lets say you are running a 10hz sinewave and on one system you are measuring 2.5% distortion at 125db and on another system you are running 15% distortion at the same spl, would it really make much difference as you don't hear frequencies that low only feel them. I could understand the importance higher up the frequency range say from 20hz to 80hz but surely not 10hz.

Just a thought.
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post #45 of 85
3/7/11 at 9:01am
Well, it would make a difference, because the THD is harmonic distortion. That is to say, if you have THD of a 15 Hz signal, the 'noise' is at 30Hz, 45Hz, 60Hz, etc. (although usually minimal by 4th harmonic). Any most can hear at 30Hz pretty well.
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post #46 of 85
3/7/11 at 11:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLW View Post

2X LMS 5400 Ultras: $1800
2X Crown XLS2000s: $998
Total: $2700

2X Maelstrom X: $990
2X Crown XLS1500s $798
Total: 1788

What does $912 extra get me?

If box size is not important, NOTHING in terms of real usage differences.

The value of the LMS comes in to play when someone wants a < 4 cuft box and still wants performance (ie..wants to throw 4000Watts at it to get high clean SPL down below 20Hz).
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post #47 of 85
3/7/11 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

If box size is not important, NOTHING in terms of real usage differences.

The value of the LMS comes in to play when someone wants a < 4 cuft box and still wants performance (ie..wants to throw 4000Watts at it to get high clean SPL down below 20Hz).

The LMS driver in the same system seemed to measure out at about 2db more sensitive, provided cleaner output overall, and didn't drop off at all with the higher frequency bass like the malx seemed to.

The maelstrom drivers were good, the LMS are just better.
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post #48 of 85
3/7/11 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

The LMS driver in the same system seemed to measure out at about 2db more sensitive, provided cleaner output overall, and didn't drop off at all with the higher frequency bass like the malx seemed to.

The maelstrom drivers were good, the LMS are just better.

All things being equal, the LMS model amazingly close to the MaelX. That 2db of extra sensitivity shows up on the higher end. For some reason, I thought I recalled reading that the LMS wasn't a good match for an LLT design. The model speaks otherwise. So, I'd have no problem using the LMS in an LLT design. It will just all come down to how money looks when it comes time to make a final decision. $810 isn't chump change... I know I poo pooed it earlier, but that was in a sealed alignment, and the required wattage for that really eats into my budget.

Having heard both, do you think the cleaner output of the LMS over the MaelX is worth twice the price? I mean, did the MaelX sound bad (before the shorting rings fell off), or did they just sound not as good?

Here's the model I did. Red is LMS, Gray is MaelX.



As for my LLT design, I learned how to make better models. Here is where I am at. These models ARE to scale.



This is a picture looking into the internal side of the port. Is it fine to have the flare on one side, or do I need to put a collar around it?


Port exit with 50mm flare


The Business End


One thing I will have to do in the fine tuning stage is adjust the enclosure volume to account for the endcaps... although I think the SonoSub program does that. At the very least I'll have to take the center brace into account.

I think I will also look into a thicker tube. The place I'm buying from can make tubes with a wall thickness up to 25mm. Between that and a center brace, it would take a lot to put a dent in it!

Okay, current questions:

1) There are 6 80mm cutouts in the center brace. Is this enough to prevent any issues? I plan to put insulation inbetween the top and the center brace. With something in the center, will I have to stuff below it also?

2) The top endcap looks like it will be quite heavy with everything attached to it... possibly top heavy. What if I were to put a gasket on the lip and just set it down into the tube so that it can be removed if necessary? Would it's weight hold it in place, or would the sub bounce it up and down like a piston?

3) Okay... nuts and bolts! I'll start looking right after I post this, but what are the best ways to mount the driver, and attach the legs? I suppose for the legs, I can just drill a nice large pilot on either side, counter sink the bottom of the baseplate, and screw a lag bolt into either end. For the top, may need a double-sided bolt to attach the legs to the endcap. For the tippy top... Hmm, don't want to have bolts sticking out the top. Perhaps I'll just drill a shallow hole for each post and simply set it on top?

4) Any obvious glaring mistakes jump out at you when looking at the models?

I'll update the models to reflect hardware once you tell me what I need to do.

Thanks!
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post #49 of 85
3/7/11 at 2:31pm
I hate the fact that I gotta wait a year for this to develop.
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post #50 of 85
3/7/11 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanLW View Post

All things being equal, the LMS model amazingly close to the MaelX. That 2db of extra sensitivity shows up on the higher end. For some reason, I thought I recalled reading that the LMS wasn't a good match for an LLT design. The model speaks otherwise. So, I'd have no problem using the LMS in an LLT design. It will just all come down to how money looks when it comes time to make a final decision. $810 isn't chump change... I know I poo pooed it earlier, but that was in a sealed alignment, and the required wattage for that really eats into my budget.

Having heard both, do you think the cleaner output of the LMS over the MaelX is worth twice the price? I mean, did the MaelX sound bad (before the shorting rings fell off), or did they just sound not as good?

The LMS was cleaner when pushed harder down low. The maelstrom's showed signs of distortion earlier. Now the only time I hear distortion is if I clip my amps. The LMS were also able to produce upper bass notes cleaner. When listening to Sublime for example, which has a lot of kick drums and bass guitar, the maelstroms just didn't do as well.

If you're going to push it hard I'd say consider LMS, but if not, the maelstrom should do fine.

Also, you won't be able to find new 18" malx's for quite some time. With soundsplinter having production issues, it seems the LMS is the only game in town right now unless you want to step down to like an Fi BTL or something.

I'd also go with more holes in your center brace, as it looks to be a big reflector right now =]
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post #51 of 85
3/7/11 at 3:50pm
As you are not building until next year you should also consider the new Blueprint BPD04 driver which is coming out very soon (I hope).
Quote:


BPD-04 is a 4" coiled 15" and 18" series that uses a triple stack motor structure and incorporates a Qts adjustment coil. They come in single 2 and single 4 Ohm loads with 1 Ohm and 2 Ohm adjusting coils. This allows you to tailor the drivers Qts from high to low allowing for a wider range of enclosure types and applications.

I have been told they are going to be quite a bit superior to the Q18 with stronger motors, more xmax and power handling. What they will sound like who knows but if FI have something to do with it, they will certainly be great drivers.

cheers

Graham
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post #52 of 85
3/8/11 at 4:19am
Thread Starter 
I'll keep my eyes on the lookout for the new stuff. Hopefully there will also be some reviews by the time I'm ready to buy so I'm not the guinea pig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod
I hate the fact that I gotta wait a year for this to develop.
How do you think I feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt
I'd also go with more holes in your center brace, as it looks to be a big reflector right now =]
Fair enough. I guess it does kinda look like an afterthought. Here is a selection of much better ones. I think 3 looks pretty good. What do you all think?

Note: The wood is 20mm thick (a hair over 3/4"). Each spoke and circle is 50mm across.

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post #53 of 85
3/8/11 at 6:19am
Also--I'm not sure a center brace is really needed...or desired.

In fact, that's the greatest advantage of the sonosub style subs--they are stupidly strong and stiff against pressure backwaves, so there's really no need for a center brace. There's a reason we keep our compressed gasses in cylinders .
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post #54 of 85
3/8/11 at 6:25am
I would go for either 3 or 4. The brace here I presume is more to hold the port in place from the top down to where it finishes.
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post #55 of 85
3/8/11 at 6:51am
Since this is a sonotube, it's vertical and the top plate should be more than enough to secure the port.
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post #56 of 85
3/8/11 at 6:56am
Better be safer than sorry in my book. As it doesn't take up much internal volume why not add it anyway.

There's gonna be alot off air moving around in that cylinder.
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post #57 of 85
3/8/11 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gperkins1973 View Post
Better be safer than sorry in my book. As it doesn't take up much internal volume why not add it anyway.

There's gonna be alot off air moving around in that cylinder.

Unless Dan is going to place them on their sides, I see no need and I've yet to see or heard of vertical sonos loosening and/or blowing their ports by extreme air velocity. But, like you said, if it makes Dan feel better adding bracing...
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post #58 of 85
3/8/11 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
The brace is more to protect it from bumps coming from the outside during moving.

Got a quote back from the German place I was thinking about getting a tube from. They can make custom sizes, but it would be 200-300Euro per tube. That's $285-$428 per tube! (these are 2m tubes, not the 12' long ones Sonotube sells)

My other option is to get my tubes from this place:

http://www.h-bau.de/fileadmin/user_u...Schalungen.pdf

The walls are 8.5mm (1/3") thick. There are two main price categories. For the "light", 78.35E ($111.92) per meter, and 111.40E ($159.14) for the "smooth" version per meter. The more expensive one is about 6lbs heavier per meter. Not sure how much of that translates into extra strength, though. I figure I'll need about 3.3 meters, so pricewise, at least $370. And that's if they don't charge a full meter for partials...

Maybe I'll get lucky and they will have some remnants which are long enough that I can have on the cheap...
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post #59 of 85
3/8/11 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
QUICK UPDATE: The Maelstrom X page now lists an ETA of June 2011! Looks like it will be available again well ahead of when I need it.

http://www.diycable.com/main/product...91c7f4a5c2bac5
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post #60 of 85
3/8/11 at 8:36am
#1 or #2 should do the trick to hold your port tube in place.

Don't forget ETA's are just estimates
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