Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 51

Who the hell has "disgust" of BR format??? Seriously, who??? Why would anybody be "against" BR per se?

There are plenty who don't see the need for BR, but disgust? Where the hell did that come from?

You are correct that MS does not have disgust for the BR format. What they have disgust is paying royalties for ANYTHING. MS will go kicking and screaming before willingly give up profit from every box sold to some 3rd party if they can avoid it.

THAT is why BR is not going to be on NextBox. Not because of some fanboys (like yourself). ROI on BR is a huge negative from Microsoft's point of view.

Oh, my vocal cord is up for it buddy! I can do a mean karaoke. Just check out my Lips high scores!!!

I expect the same from you when 2013 comes and goes...

A more beefed up console is not a way to extend the 360 for another 5 years. I disagree with you. I don't think its better for us, as consumers, or the developers. If they release a beefed up 360 with more graphics power they would only be fragmenting the market.

That would mean that those of us with the current system, or launch system, in my case would not be able to play the new 360 games on their 360. The other alternative would be that the developers would have to produce 2 versions of their games. One for the xbox 360 and one for your beefed up 360. I don't see how that is better for the customers or the developers. I'm not seeing your win-win scenario.

Honestly, how many current 360 owners do you think would purchase your new beefed up 360 to play new games knowing that the next generation is right around the corner. Developers wouldn't make games that take advantage of the extra power in the beefed up systems because 90% of their customers wouldn't be able to play them.

Maybe I'm crazy but I don't think I would be in the minority when I say that there is no way that I would buy essentially the same system twice.

king3pj is correct. Xbox team will not introduce a hardware that will create two different classes of titles. That was the whole point of not requiring hard drive support for games.

2015 is really not that far away...

Heh, you must have missed the epic AVS "format wars". It was one for the ages, and some people still have bad blood over it. I don't think it happened too much here, but it naturally spilled over into the console section through the early fanboy wars.

As for slitting the market, I can't see MS doing that. Thats effectively Nintendo's strategy with the Wii/WiiU and I don't think it'll work. WiiU is their upgrade / hold over.

The boy said: "My name's Johnny and it might be a sin,
"But I'll take your bet, your gonna regret, 'cos I'm the best that's ever been."



LOL

This one comment negated almost everything you said above. That just as easily describes MS. In fact, MS is that on STEROIDS! MS has acute corporate allergies to paying royalties on anything! They posit themselves as Net royalty collectors. Not payers.

This isn't a fanboy position. It's a business/market assessment. Why would MS pay royalties on a system to benfit its arch enemy (Sun Microsystem)? How does Blu-Ray make them or the Xbox better? Answer...it doesn't. If anything they see the BD-J Sun Micro component of it as a threat. The Xbox can do "Good Enough" HD movies right now through NetFlix, Zune, DD, XBox Live and Cloud (once MS fully constructs it). They can do Full HD games with HD-DVD which they still have exclusive rights too. And it uses HD-i. Their own, better BD-J protocol. And HD-i is 100% compatible with HD-7 (their Mobile apps version of the same).

They don't need Blu-Ray as you suggest to have a credible media entertainment center now or in the future. Neither they or Nintendo have Blu-Ray now. And they run 1 & 2 in the marketplace. If people want a Blu-Ray player. They can go and buy one without incumbering it with a game console. I know because I have 3 of them. I don't need or want another one in an XBox. I'm not trying to breed those suckers! IF MS puts one in. I don't care. I just don't need it. Nor do I want to pay more for it. HDDVD games on a proprietary XBox 360-S will look equally spectacular to a HD game on PS3. SO who cares what blu laser format MS uses for its games. Nintendo was smart on this one. MS will be too.

Well...that is your prerogative...to disagree with me. And I respect it. Needless to say I completely disagree with every single opinion and assumption you voiced in your comment. I won't indulge these poor threader souls, by rehashing all of the reasons why anymore. I'll just challenge you to read my pov's in this voluminous thread to ascertain how comprehensively I disagreee with you. If you are interested. Trust me...it's all there.

But know what. This thread is just about opinion, wishing, wanting and speculation anyway. With a heavy dose of science and argument. And that is all you and any of us are doing here. And no, I doubt you are crazy...even though I don't know you. But you would be in the minority in your closing assumption. Many people have bought upwards of 2-5 XBox 360's. For QA/RROD reasons...for 'Elite model' upgrade reasons...for Jasper Mobo reasons...for XB Slim reasons...and various other and assundry reasons. So you see. You just may be the exception and minority on this. Because I most assuredly would buy a real genuine 'Elite' version of the XBox 360-S as described above.

And the technical hurdles you referenced aren't even real obstacles or barriers to success to any credible company in the development world . And certainly not MS. And yes...I would just as easily buy a real Nexgen XBox on top of my Jasper and Slim as soon as it was launched. If you have more than 1 HDTV...more than 1 auto...more than 1 bathroom...you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I think that if MS was going to change the performance of the XBox to create a more powerful version and fragment the market, the release of the Slim was a perfect time to do so, considering they modified the hardware in other ways to support Kinect. Instead they went out of the way to make sure that the performance of the Slim is exactly the same as the legacy 360's out there.

I can see how the argument can be made logically, but there's nothing in MS's history that suggests that they would release a beefed up console to fracture the market. Kinect is their push to extend the life of the console for a few more years until they're ready to release a true next gen system. But that's just my opinion of course.

P.S. Sega tried this with the release of the 32X to prolong the life of the Genesis until they were ready to release the Saturn. How'd that work out for them?

They did it with Windows and DOS. With windows ultimately replacing DOS.
You're assuming a "beefed up" model can't be made that is backward compatible to the XB360 slim. Certainly not the case. In fact, the true NexGen better be BC or they will pay for it big time IMO. Also, Nintendo just showed how simple it is to do just that. I don't see any "fracturing" of the market at all. It's just a "line extension".

Sega's problems were mostly cash flow and financial related. Not product. False equivalency.

Nintendo made you rebuy all your titles with the wii. That's hardly backwards compatibility. If it is then Microsoft and Sony both have backwards compatiblity on their best titles and that's all that's really needed anyway. That being said. I want TRUE backwards compatiblity where I can put in my favorite xbox disk or xbox 360 disk that I purchased and kept and it will work just fine. I don't need upgraded graphics. I'll be happy just playing it as it was. Two games on the original Xbox I miss in original form. Fuzion Frenzy and Kung Foo Chaos --- only a handful on the 360 I'd miss too - but native disk support without rebuying the same content is ideal.

I can see from your response that you really don't know what you're talking about. False equivalence is comparing a game console, which is by definition a closed hardware system with a single set of specs, with an operating system, which is software, the hardware running it is irrelevant.

Backwards compatibility doesn't keep the market from becoming fractured. You will still have two sets of hardware with two different standards to develop for. While developers could overcome this challenge, it takes away development time that could be used for more important things like bug fixes, QA and game balance. It also creates a quandary in the development process. How much time do you spend on effects or features that won't be available to everyone who buys the game? But if you don't push the best version of the hardware to its limits will you be outdone by a competitor?

The Wii U is a completely different console from the Wii. It's a next generation console for Nintendo, which ironically, puts them into the same generation as Microsoft and Sony. Maintaining peripheral support from one console to the other doesn't mean it's not a next gen console for them, just as not changing the basic shape of the Playstation controller from PS1 to PS2 to PS3 doesn't mean those consoles were simply "line extensions".

*sigh* Sega's cash flow and financial problems were directly related to poor product decisions and their poor transition from 16-bit to 32-bit. They spent a lot of money on bad hardware that didn't sell very well, on R&D, on manufacturing and on marketing (not to mention unsold cartridges in the case of the 32X). They spent a lot of money surprise launching the Saturn in the U.S., after spending a lot of money changing the design of the Saturn at the last minute to add a second processor so that they could do 3D (they originally envisioned the Saturn as the 2D console to end all 2D consoles and it was). They went from splitting the market with Nintendo 50/50 to having only a marginal market share and a mountain of debt to show for it. They went from being the biggest software house on the planet to being out of the console business because of the hole they dug with the Saturn transition. They are the object lesson in the console space of what NOT to do.

[QUOTE=Sean Max;20544817]I can see from your response that you really don't know what you're talking about..[/quote]

For the most part we have a very civil, respectful and tolerant discussion over here on this thread. But every so often a troll invades. Or some d!ck from doughnut land emerges with weak name calling and just junk. Yours is such a comment. It is offensive and insulting. And I really have nothing else to say to you about it. I don't know whether you are smart or dumb. Your comment suggests the latter. But I really don't care. This thread has been about imagination, speculation and just a good old fun conversation without personal insults. For the most part we all like each other over here. Even when we disagree with one another.

A suggestion to you. You don't gain credibility on this thread by questioning the intelligence or integrity of people you don't know or disagree with. Nobody is right on this thread yet. And no one is wrong yet. Because nothing has happened with MS and NexBox yet.

And for the record I know a whole lot more about Sega and MS than you. Including the people who run them now or ran them in the past. And especially the conditions Sega faced during its market failures. Yours is just tabloid knowledge. And I don't need to bore everyone on this thread with my sources, uses and background just to prove a worthless point to you. No need to respond.

My talk with you is over.

Well put Sean Max, you really knocked him off of his high horse and rightfully so.

intellivision is one of the best systems i have ever owned!! i figured as long as we are off topic and just talking crazy i wanted in on the action

BarrellBelly, I don't think you really know what a personal insult looks like. When you say something and someone says to you that you don't know what you're talking about it's not a personal attack, it's an indication that someone thinks that your response is ill informed and/or not based on fact.

Your response, in contrast, is everything you accuse me of: a personal attack, by calling me a troll and a dick (neither of which you would have the courage to say to me IRL, but I digress), attempting to impugn my intelligence, and enhance your own credibility at the same time. Failing to actually address anything that I said to you, other than to imply that you have some sort of inside information or mysterious sources is really a cop out and does nothing to counter my points. Also, considering that you know nothing about what I know about Sega or MS to state categorically that you know more than I do is the ploy of an intellectually small minded fan boy, not that of a savvy insider.

A better tack would have been to actually counter with your own reasons as to why you think that Sega's financial problems (and it's crushing debt load) were not, in fact, the result of poor product decisions as I claim. Or to use a better example of how Microsoft has fractured its console market in the past with a beefed up version of the same generation of hardware. I'm sure the idea has been bandied about, if for no other reason than to consider the consequences of such a move, but that doesn't mean that they would actually do it.

It depends on how MS goes about it. If they released an incrementally improved system, they could make it backwards compatible. That completely avoids the problem of fragmenting the market. And even if they don't include BC, MS will definitely include all the same features (Netflix, Hulu, ESPN, etc, etc) and all downloadable titles from the 360. So, again, it avoids fragmentation. This is basically what the Wii did (and what the Wii U will do).

Besides, technology is defined by planned obsolescence--as we're all painfully aware here on AVS. Six years is a long time for any piece of consumer electronics to last or stay relevant.

This topic is dumb. You guys are arguing over something that will NEVER happen.

If you have spent any time with Xbox team you know this is true. They will not fragment the main hardware. PERIOD.

Best post ever!

I also fail to see how adding more disc space will get us better graphics. The CPU and GPU would have to be changed to make them better and that is only going to happen with a new console.

A beefed up system with backwards compatibility is still market fragmentation. Of course a beefed up version of the same system would be able to play the older games. That's not what I was talking about. The fragmentation comes from the millions of 360s already in homes not being able to play new games.

I agree with your planned obsolescence comment. However, at this point I don't think it makes sense to make a slightly more powerful version of the same system and fragment the market. In my opinion, it would make more sense to just release a whole new system with more drastic upgrades instead of taking that half step.

What does Microsoft gain by releasing a more expensive 360 with HDDVD built in? Would they not be better served by copying the Wii U controller?

The 360 is already performing as well as the PS3 without an HDDVD drive, if MS has not taken that step by now, I doubt they will. You gain nothing in terms of system performance by adding HDDVD. I think it is more likely that we will see MS do one of two things, followed by a real Next gen console releasing between 2013 and 2015.

1. Reduce price on 360 and sell a boatload while still making extra profit on software sales.

2. Keep price as is to emphasize that Wii U is not superior to 360.

The majority of people who got a 2nd 360 were not doing it for upgrade reasons. They did it for hardware failure reasons, and most people got free replacements from microsoft instead of buying new consoles.

Yes I'm sure there are many people who have bought more than one console just to have 2 or because they wanted to upgrade like you mentioned. I think you are greatly overestimating that amount though. I still disagree that I am the exception and minority when I say that I wouldn't buy the same system twice.

That isn't the point though. Even those of you who have upgraded would have to upgrade again in the same console generation to play the newest games. I'm sure there are plenty of hardcore people like you who don't mind buying essentially the same thing several times. I just don't see many developers doing the extra work to make something that won't run on the millions of 360s owned today.

When they make a new system developers will be on board and people will upgrade. In my opinion in needs to be a NEW system though.

Are you sure? I've not heard about that before.

[/sarcasm]

I own 4 xboxes. None were bought to replace another box. I happen to have 2 kids that play a lot. I play alot. And the other is used mostly for online capabilities. I also know at least another dozen friends that own at least 2 just so their kids can play different games at the same time. My brother own 3 for the same reason. It has been rare that I bought more than 1 game so that would be the developers problem. There are many households with multi machines so it would be tough to determine just many households have only one active machine. Even going by xbox live, you don't get a particularly accurate count as there are times when all 4 of ours are on at the same time.
Personally, I think they have at least 2 more Christmas's before coming up with a replacement. Perhaps a box with beefed up graphics and sound. I don't care what kind of disc format they come out with just so it has it. I have several blu-ray players. Build in super kinect support and 3D would be a fine addition. But I don't need it to play movies. Perhaps they will go the rental route like netflix as I doubt they stick a blu-ray player in there and if they were to use hd-dvd, no one would buy the movies if they were to release any, which I doubt. This tv thing will be interesting since they have the cash to sue providers if they try to limit how much programing that one could use.
Even though I would like to see a new box now, I know it is not coming unless the bottom drops out of them selling what they have now. And I don't see it. You don't lower the price or quit making them until you are on a downward trend and nothing suggests that at the moment. And if you own it, you are not going to quit buying the hot games when they come out. I guess it is a good time to be a microsoft game employee.

Ha.



I think barrelbelly is an HDDVD shill.

barrelbelly I challenge you not to mention HDDVD in your next ten posts in this thread.

Well now...aren't we pretty! Are you ever going to contribute anything to this thread except the occasional dopey comment about nothing. I am glad you hold me in such high esteem though. High Horse?...never knew I was on one. Rightfully so?...who did I wrong?...You?

Nawww...you're thinking wrong YRD. But you have my promise on the challenge. I really don't care whether MS uses it or not. My only point has been they don't really need to use Blu-Ray. And I love Blu-Ray movies. I also think what Daekwan, Gameboy and others have said on this thread regarding DD is equally valid. Meaning MS really doesn't need to use a Disc at all in a true NexGen. It just depends on when they launch NexGen. All any of us have done is just kick the tires on a lot of different ideas. And had a lot of fun arguing them.

My beef is with jerks who enter the debate late in the game. And they are too lazy to read the whole thread or even the hundreds of comments many of us have made and supported with facts. But they just wade in...chin first with insults to forward their POV. And often times their POV is just something all of us have argued pretty comprehensively. If they actually read the thread they would see that there is not a very big range that any of us are disagreeing on. In fact, that point is what I was simply trying to exploit in argument with the recent topic diversion on "beefed up 360".

It doesn't matter to me or most of us on this thread whether it's a good idea or bad one. I enjoy talking about "How" it would be done, or if it was practical to do. But our latter day saints just jump in without any insight into the conversation or narrative and hurl missles, disguised as disagreement. That's my real beef.

The dopey trolls are just comic relief.

[quote=Antiochus;20546092]What does Microsoft gain by releasing a more expensive 360 with HDDVD built in? Would they not be better served by copying the Wii U controller?

Well I promised YRD I wouldn't say it anymore. But you did.

So my response Antiochus is...Very little to nothing right now. My entire argument is based on my premise that MS will not launch a true Nexgen XBox until 2014-2018. Another camp on this thread has a very valid counter premise that a Full NexGen Launch/announcement will happen around late 2012-2013. I personally hope they are right!

But IMO MS has little incentive to do so. IMO there are still meaningful low cost mods they can execute with the current XBox 360 to fully optimize today's tech before launching an expensive NexGen. They can unmercifully milk profits for 4-5 more years easily with the XB360. Heck...they can still use an improved 3 layer version of red laser DVD itself to make bigger games for the XBox 360. The valid argument I opened up was could they just improve the XBox 360 with a real "elite" sku to achieve this.

The "fracturing the market" paradigm was a legit and rich discussion to have regarding this topic. I believe that particular conversation would have eventually led us closer to what MS is actually planning to do. But it got hi-jacked by a few insulting epistles...from a few new posters...who didn't bother to research previous comments...to ascertain how we flesh out concepts on this thread. There is a big difference between saying "I don't get where you are coming from...but I think I disagree with you"...to "You don't have a clue what you are talking about you Dumbsh!t". That is where I tend to draw the line on who I talk too.

Them's fighting words!

HD DVD is dead. Microsoft will *not* include an HD DVD drive as consumers will gag at the thought. You, or I won't but your average consumer will. Sorry we're nerds, but we're *not* their target market anymore. Including HD DVD would be like Sony releasing a new console that ran off BetaMax Tapes. No one would buy it.

Putting on my gamebo... err Nostradamus hat I predict the nextbox will have one of the following
1 -
2 - Blu Ray, through some miraculous act of god not having to pay a dime to Sun Microsystems Java Licensing
3 - Complete Digital Distribution

Item #3 is doubtful. We have a reality distortion field around us in most of the western world. Not Everyone has a constant, reliable broadband connection - This is further complicated by the fact that not everyone pays a monthly fee - Some countries charge by how much is consumed (Australia did this as little as 3 years ago - It's very likely the same). If microsoft went completely digital distribution, they will immediately isolate a large portion of their potential revenue. While it's totally possible, even now in 2011 it's not going to happen.

My guess is that they'll either do a proprietary format, or strike some deal using their Lawyers and Magic Pixie Dust to use Blu - Ray without having to use Java.

arggg!!!