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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 78

post #2311 of 6254
12/30/11 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

well they are goin to use a dual core core gpu that is known so that is AMD's card that fits the bill it will retail for 650 bucks.

good thing the next xbox will be out two years later than that so prices will drop.

My new years resolution is to stop getting into pointless flame wars on message boards with people that obviously don't know what they're talking about.

This isn't going to be easy.
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post #2312 of 6254
12/30/11 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

but Microsoft will use the dual card New Zealand 7990 so it might do 4k at 60 flops but don't know.

http://www.overclock3d.net/news/gpu_...h_in_q1_2012/1

bit of info on it

That isn't a dual core gpu though. The article said they are putting two chips on the same board. It seems more likely they will go with a custom GPU that is probably based on current or possibly slightly future tech but also scaled back to achieve their needed costs.

Ultimately as others have indicated it is reasonable to expect they will be able to output a variety of resolutions but the native rendering resolution will stay within a more consumer oriented level. I for one would prefer that given their likely need for tradeoffs they render no higher than 1080p but greatly expand the realism (as headrusch mentioned).
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post #2313 of 6254
12/30/11 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by m4bama View Post

well they are goin to use a dual core core gpu that is known so that is AMD's card that fits the bill it will retail for 650 bucks.

The MSRP of the 7970 is $550 while the MSRP of the 7990 has not yet been announced by AMD. I would mention that the MSRP of the 6970 was $370 and the MSRP for the 6990 was $700.
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post #2314 of 6254
12/30/11 at 7:23pm
Guys, remember something: the systems released so far haven't used off the shelf GPUs, they use chips specific to the consoles that "use the technology of" off the shelf GPUs.........so price for price comparisons aren't really relevant.

They will sell many, many more consoles than they will stand alone video cards, and if they are indeed shooting for a maximum of 1920x1080 (or some variant on that for full 3D), they can do that with the technology out now.

I am curious to see how far they will push the graphical envelope, hoping it eclipses what is currently seen on PC's which, because of the nature of monitor technology, is sadly spending more of its time chasing resolution (multi monitor primiarily) rather than effective efforts to increase realism in games from a graphical pov.
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post #2315 of 6254
12/31/11 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Guys, remember something: the systems released so far haven't used off the shelf GPUs, they use chips specific to the consoles that "use the technology of" off the shelf GPUs.........so price for price comparisons aren't really relevant.

They will sell many, many more consoles than they will stand alone video cards, and if they are indeed shooting for a maximum of 1920x1080 (or some variant on that for full 3D), they can do that with the technology out now.

I partly agree that it isn't an apples to apples comparison since game consoles are sold in very large numbers and that they are often initially subsidized. At the same time though if Microsoft released their next game console in 2013 do you think it likely that it would have the same graphical performance as the AMD Radeon 7990? Personally I think that it would be very unlikely.
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post #2316 of 6254
12/31/11 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

I partly agree that it isn't an apples to apples comparison since game consoles are sold in very large numbers and that they are often initially subsidized. At the same time though if Microsoft released their next game console in 2013 do you think it likely that it would have the same graphical performance as the AMD Radeon 7990? Personally I think that it would be very unlikely.

Ahhh but here is the rub....remember, its a console, not a PC. A PC Part has to deal with lots of available resolutions, and different CPU configurations, ram, etc. A console doesn't. A Console has a set CPU (if it has a CPU at all), a set amount of RAM, etc. You could take a console part and have it run better than a high end PC equivalent, because the software for a console is always streamlined. That is why its tough to compare. A console part only has to push 30 or 60fps max (currently, that may change with the advent of 3D...although I'm not versed enough in the tech to comment for sure).
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post #2317 of 6254
1/1/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Ahhh but here is the rub....remember, its a console, not a PC. A PC Part has to deal with lots of available resolutions, and different CPU configurations, ram, etc. A console doesn't. A Console has a set CPU (if it has a CPU at all), a set amount of RAM, etc. You could take a console part and have it run better than a high end PC equivalent, because the software for a console is always streamlined. That is why its tough to compare. A console part only has to push 30 or 60fps max (currently, that may change with the advent of 3D...although I'm not versed enough in the tech to comment for sure).

Bingo HeadRush! Both you and Richard Paul made excellent points. Like Richard, I don't believe the NexBox will include a GPU like the 7990. Way too pricey...even at a discounted level. And I agree with you that they don't really need too because of the different configurations of a console v a PC. I just spent about $3000 on an uber Asus PC Rig that is capable of doing everything I want for the next 5-10 years. That is close to the amount of time I kept my old Win XP PC. I have no interest whatsoever in spending upwards of $500 for a console that will just play games and stream video. IMO...such an approach will be a collossal flop in the Marketplace like the PS 3 was initially.

As far as 3D is concerned. It is a Movie Theater...huge cinema screen killer app...with DOA home appeal. That concept is much ado about the walking dead IMO. I don't think it will ever be a mass market HDTV or gaming tech. Methinks it will remain the man toy of the HT/man cave crowd (less than 1% of the video & gaming market). 3D is absolutely awful on any display or screen smaller than 50". On 32-40 inch displays, common in most homes around the world...it is simply annoying. IMO MS, Sony and Nintendo would be wasting good time and money focusing on this gimmicky technology. I sure wouldn't waste mine to buy that feature. It had zero influence on why I put dual Cross fired AMD 6990's in my PC Rig.
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post #2318 of 6254
1/1/12 at 12:14pm
Not to thread-swipe but I'm in agreement with you on 3D.....3D in the Theatre is almost a reason to go. 3D at home is just...meh. Plus, I'm a projector guy, and 3D at 100+ inches still takes more than $4 grand to do properly with 1080p full frame...and because 3D means you have to crank up the light output to account for the glasses and only half the light hitting your eye at any given time, it sort of takes all the advances we've had in home theatre projectors the past 6, 7 years and resets them.

The new 3D projectors in the $2500 range are amazingly bright, do very impressive 3D....and sadly also blow away the incredible black levels that had started to become the norm even in lower end projectors. Which is sad....

3D was a gimmick in the 50's, its a gimmick today...but every TV manufacturer is pushing it because, lets face it, unless they DO move to 2K (hellaciously expensive for them to do so) they have nothing else to sell us :P
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post #2319 of 6254
1/1/12 at 1:22pm
3D support is a foregone conclusion. Im am certain Sony will mandate that all games support it, like they do with HD. Mandated support is likely on 360, but even if MS doesn't support it, it'll be ubiquitous.

The fact of the matter is that it's ridiculously easy to implement in game. It's just not a tough decision for devs to make for next gen hardware. It'll be like surround sound - sure, only a fraction of people care, and only a fraction of those even have it properly set up, but it's going to be in everything for those who want to take advantage. And the hardware that supports it will get better over time.
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post #2320 of 6254
1/1/12 at 10:28pm
Surround sound technology is actually appealing ( I wonder when we will get to 25 speaker surround home receivers, seems like they keep adding speakers every couple years). 3D is just pointless trash. I wish it would die the horrible death it deserves and needs. But these GD big market aholes want to shove it up everyone's rear. I haven't been to a movie theater in a decade, 3D drives me further away.
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post #2321 of 6254
1/2/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

sure, only a fraction of people care, and only a fraction of those even have it properly set up, but it's going to be in everything for those who want to take advantage. And the hardware that supports it will get better over time.

I suppose. But room size is going to stay pretty much the same all over the world for the next 100 years. Unless everyone goes native and back to tents. And 99.999999999% of people won't jam a 150" 3D image in a 12'X12' room/space to appreciate real 3D. And that is precisely what one would need to do to create the 3D cinema equivalent of a movie theater. 3D on a 32"-50" screen...whether a game or movie...is just video masturbation in crappy 2D IMO.
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post #2322 of 6254
1/2/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

Surround sound technology is actually appealing ( I wonder when we will get to 25 speaker surround home receivers, seems like they keep adding speakers every couple years).

YRD. I completely agree with you except for 25speakers. But your key point is spot on. And it is actually the surround sound technology itself that creates and imparts the perception of in home 3D experience, for games and movies. That's certainly how it works for me. I have a big 65" and 73" screen. But it is the 3D surround sound that makes it all work. HD itself creates a good enough 3D replication inside the screen IMO. That is where I want images to live. Crap floating around in a room is gimmicky BS. I haven't seen one 3D movie in my home on the 73"er that I preferred over the 2D with 3D surround sound. And that includes AVATAR.

I sure hope gaming in the next consoles don't waste our time or focus on this snake oil gimmick.
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post #2323 of 6254
1/2/12 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

YRD. I completely agree with you except for 25speakers. But your key point is spot on. And it is actually the surround sound technology itself that creates and imparts the perception of in home 3D experience, for games and movies. That's certainly how it works for me. I have a big 65" and 73" screen. But it is the 3D surround sound that makes it all work. HD itself creates a good enough 3D replication inside the screen IMO. That is where I want images to live. Crap floating around in a room is gimmicky BS. I haven't seen one 3D movie in my home on the 73"er that I preferred over the 2D with 3D surround sound. And that includes AVATAR.

I sure hope gaming in the next consoles don't waste our time or focus on this snake oil gimmick.


I'm not saying I want 25 speakers, I'm think it's absurd right now with 7 speakers.
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post #2324 of 6254
1/2/12 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

I'm not saying I want 25 speakers, I'm think it's absurd right now with 7 speakers.

I didn't think you really meant that YRD. On another note...the following article is interesting:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...ita-sales.aspx

It looks like PS VIta is tanking big time in Japan. It looks like a cool device to me. But I bet both Sony and MS will follow the spring launch of Vita in the USA as a measure of how receptive they feel consumers are for new game consoles (overall). If it takes off gangbusters, they may move up to 2013 launches. If it bombs or sputters...we are unlikely to see a PS4 or XBox Loop before 2014 at the earliest. And it could even be 2015-2016! JMHO.
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post #2325 of 6254
1/2/12 at 11:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

I didn't think you really meant that YRD. On another note...the following article is interesting:

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/a...ita-sales.aspx

It looks like PS VIta is tanking big time in Japan. It looks like a cool device to me. But I bet both Sony and MS will follow the spring launch of Vita in the USA as a measure of how receptive they feel consumers are for new game consoles (overall). If it takes off gangbusters, they may move up to 2013 launches. If it bombs or sputters...we are unlikely to see a PS4 or XBox Loop before 2014 at the earliest. And it could even be 2015-2016! JMHO.

I don't believe the Vita is "tanking"
It is pretty much going along the same lines of other launches in Japan. It just isn't doing what alot of people claimed it would do out the gate.

Also I highly doubt IMO that MS is concerned at all about Vita and how well it is recieved with plans of their own about their current or future consoles.

http://playstrum.spruz.com/pt/PS-Vit...ducts/blog.htm

Quote:


PlayStation (PSOne)
• For beginners, we'll take a look at the original PlayStation console. Announced for a December 3rd, 1994 launch in Japan, it was met with upwards of 150,000 units sold for week one. It's launch was considered a great success at the time and paved the way for many hit franchises in the video game industry, many of which we are aware of and have enjoyed since.
• It's second week was less impressive. Following the successful launch week came the second with approximately 29,000 units sold in Japan.



PlayStation 2 (PS2)
• If you weren't already aware, the PlayStation 2 was on a league of it's own. Still, this was unknown until the official launch of the PS2 in Japan was underway. Released on March 4th, 2000 in Japan, it's numbers were released the following day with over 940,000 units sold.
• Clearly, it's second week would be projected to be less impressive after the astronomical success of it's opening week. Sales for the second week peaked at about 86,000 units. Despite the massive drop, it undoubtedly held a great two weeks in Japan. The PS2 would go on to sell upwards of over 153,000,000 units worldwide, becoming the most successful video game console of all time and something that Sony (or any company, for that matter) would struggle to replicate in terms of success.



PlayStation Portable (PSP)
• Japan is largely a handheld-centric market. When the PlayStation Portable launched in Japan on December 12th, 2004, it was also met with success, selling over 200,000 units on it's first day, with it's first week yielding at just under 250,000 units.
• The following week's sales - although hard to track down precisely - was clocked in at approximately 98,000 units (according to VGChartz).



PlayStation 3 (PS3)
• The latest in the line of Sony's home consoles, the PlayStation 3 had garnered much hype being the supposed powerhouse that it was made to be. The biggest obstacle the PS3 faced, however, was the incredible price put on it. Still, the units managed to sell, with approx. 130,000 units sold throughout it's first week on the market - over 80,000 of that made within the first 24 hours.
• It's second week in Japan had resulted in the similar trend of a steep decline, selling just above 35,000 units. Despite this, the system would go on to become a strong contender in the current generation of hardware, slowly shrinking the once 10,000,000 unit-lead that the competing Xbox 360 had and is now closing in on 60,000,000 units sold globally.



PlayStation Vita (PSV)
• Sony's newest handheld system launched recently in Japan and was met with a successful first week, selling over 325,000 units during it's first two days on the market.
• It's second week saw the release of the system in other Asian countries. In Japan, it managed to sell just under 75,000 units (105,000+ entirely), bringing the total to over 400,000 units respectively.





PlayStation Week 1/Week 2 Sales In Japan*



Consoles

Week 1

Week 2




PS1

150,000

29,000 ( - 80%)



PS2

940,000

86,000 ( - 91%)



PSP

250,000

98,000 ( - 60%)



PS3

130,000

35,000 ( - 73%)



PSV

325,000+

74,000 ( - 78%)




Latest Nintendo Launches (For Comparison)*



Consoles

Week 1

Week 2




Wii

370,000+

105,000 ( - 71%)



3DS

370,000+

200,000+ ( - 45%)
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post #2326 of 6254
1/2/12 at 11:27am
mboojigga:

I wasn't criticising Sony. I personally love the PS3 and I am interested in the Vita too. It looks really neat. All of those companies watch and analyze everything the other does for intel reasons or business opportunies. All I'm saying is that big techno launches are an iffy proposition right now. And those companies will glean every bit of information from them to make their own plans. It's the article itself that concluded Vita was tanking fast in Japan. And they were confused as to why. I was only passing on the info WaHO. You shot a fly with a bazooka on this one. wouldn't want to be your enemy on BLOPS!
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post #2327 of 6254
1/2/12 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

mboojigga:

I wasn't criticising Sony. I personally love the PS3 and I am interested in the Vita too. It looks really neat. All of those companies watch and analyze everything the other does for intel reasons or business opportunies. All I'm saying is that big techno launches are an iffy proposition right now. And those companies will glean every bit of information from them to make their own plans. It's the article itself that concluded Vita was tanking fast in Japan. And they were confused as to why. I was only passing on the info WaHO. You shot a fly with a bazooka on this one. wouldn't want to be your enemy on BLOPS!

I didn't think you were criticising Sony. I was just conversating and adding some information in relation to that article. No personal harm done to me .
Multi everything owner here(except Wii).

I gets my ass kicked in BLOPS so no concerns there.
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post #2328 of 6254
1/2/12 at 12:40pm
I fully expect the vita to tank.
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post #2329 of 6254
1/2/12 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

I fully expect the vita to tank.

Long term in Japan I don't think it will but in the states I do agree.
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post #2330 of 6254
1/2/12 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

I fully expect the vita to tank.

So do I.
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post #2331 of 6254
1/3/12 at 2:09pm
I liberally changed the text in the second paragraph of the following article from HDTV predictions to summarize how I feel about the state of game consoles. And articulate what I hope MS and others focus on with their next generation consoles.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/getsmart010312.htm

“With all this historical evidence sitting on the shelf, you would think that Video Game Console makers would know that the key to better sales on their new game consoles is to promote and provide a better overall visual gaming experience to fully exploit HDTV picture quality. However, during the last 2 years, console manufacturers have invested heavily in gimmicks and side features such as motion control, 3D, movies and Internet streaming. The concept of delivering the biggest and best gaming platform possible to video game enthusiasts, seemed to get lost, as companies competed to deliver the strangest or most creative applications possible to compete with telephones, to feed mass market video appeal.”

IMO MS doesn’t need to go crazy with NexGen. Just give me a much better version of Xbox 360. Call it what they want. But make sure it plays bigger and better DX11 capable games flawlessly in full 1080p. Give it to me in a console that is reasonably priced…reliable…and places gaming at center stage.
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post #2332 of 6254
1/3/12 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

Long term in Japan I don't think it will but in the states I do agree.

If it doesn't sell in the US or Europe, it's will tank globally. Japanese companies need their products to succeed in the US.

Japan is really a small gaming market. It is an island country of 127 million people. While people call it part of the big 3 markets, that's more legacy and clout than buying power. The Wii has sold 84 million but 50 million was in the US and Europe made the bulk of the rest. In Japan, it was only about 12 million lifetime (and it sold like gangbusters there).

Same thing for the PS3. It's the number 1 full size console in Japan right now. But what does that really mean? that means about 7.5 million consoles sold in Japan for its lifetime. So after 6 years, it's only outsold the horrendously poor-selling 360 by 6 million units in Japan.

the 3DS has weathered a poor start and sales are good now and increasing. but I doubt the Vita will survive without going the razors route (sell system at loss, make it up on games). The Vita seems to be a great machine but is it great enough to justify how expensive it is?
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post #2333 of 6254
1/5/12 at 12:18am
Another historical point to consider is how the weaker system always seems to do the best that gen. (ps1, ps2, wii) I still remember the crap I took for pointing that out before the wii launched, I was roasted alive...
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post #2334 of 6254
1/5/12 at 6:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Another historical point to consider is how the weaker system always seems to do the best that gen. (ps1, ps2, wii) I still remember the crap I took for pointing that out before the wii launched, I was roasted alive...

Depends....weaker system? The PS1 sold because Sony really did their homework and looked to the future of gaming (Polygon, not sprite based games). Microsoft did this same thing with the 360...build quality issues aside they spent more time with the software developers and said "what do you need from us", and by and large they listened. Good games with a solid SDK, this is where Sony really stumbled with the PS3.....aside from being rushed to market.

Wii was a once in a lifetime thing...motion controls! And like the Gamecube, it sold fast, peaked, and died young. One thing you can say about Nintendo's modern systems, they sell like hotcakes the first few years...but in the end you're left with a system with maybe 10-20 must-have games, tops.

I predict the next xbox will be a success because Microsoft as a company is slowly becoming a dinosaur...its phones are eh, its software has competition, OS's alone can't keep it afloat....I think they will pay more attention to the hardware, or they'd die by "pulling a Sony"; promising a spaceship, delivering a really fast Jet. If they do that, Microsoft loses its #1 next gen status.

For Sony, I think the Vita dies a nasty death and then Sony decides to either get out of the game or go back to the drawing board and create a system that can truly compete with and/or dominate Microsoft. Technically, the way these circles of success work, this next round is Sony's to win, IF they do their homework and learn from their mistakes.

I'd love for someone from Sony to stand up and go "Look, we know we screwed up with the PS3..too much pushing BluRay, not enough game system that was easy to use and deliver good games for, too much crazy plumbing under the hood". But you know.....Sony has been losing marketshare in everything, to the Koreans.

Maybe the next ubersystem...is going to come from Samsung.
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post #2335 of 6254
1/5/12 at 10:48am
I remember the PS1 being the most powerful system of that gen? I remember before the thing came, out it just seemed like the absolute best thing ever.

What was the competition then? N64 and Jaguar maybe and Saturn? It was more powerful than the first 2 I don't remember the specs on the Saturn.
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post #2336 of 6254
1/5/12 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

I remember the PS1 being the most powerful system of that gen? I remember before the thing came, out it just seemed like the absolute best thing ever.

What was the competition then? N64 and Jaguar maybe and Saturn? It was more powerful than the first 2 I don't remember the specs on the Saturn.

N64 was more powerful than the PS1 most ways. Saturn was underpowered, jaguar was a joke.

The least powerful system doesn't always win. See: TG 16, Saturn, Dreamcast. The "winner" is rarely the most powerful, but if its too weak, it's just forgotten.
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post #2337 of 6254
1/5/12 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

N64 was more powerful than the PS1 most ways. Saturn was underpowered, jaguar was a joke.

Your memory is fading....The N64 was not as powerful as the PS1. I admit we are comparing apples and oranges here but the system ran with a slower chip which couldn't handle higher resolutions or complex polygons, but it DID have filtering on-chip (AF filtering) so textures looked smoother off-axis, but the N64 couldn't pump anywhere near the number of polys that the Ps1 could and its games were lucky to achieve framerates in the mid 20's.

The n64 was the first of Nintendos mistarks....sticking with cartridges and not providing enough beefy internal hardware.

Quote:


The least powerful system doesn't always win. See: TG 16, Saturn, Dreamcast. The "winner" is rarely the most powerful, but if its too weak, it's just forgotten.

I had a Genesis, SNES and TG16.....the TG16 was quickly forgotten...the SNES and GENESIS slugged it out their entire lives, one was not better than the other, but the Snes games were always, always prettier thanks to 256 colors.
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post #2338 of 6254
1/5/12 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

I remember the PS1 being the most powerful system of that gen? I remember before the thing came, out it just seemed like the absolute best thing ever.

It was....playing that weapons-based fighting game, Toshinden I think it was, at home...it was like having an honest to god next gen arcade machine at home. Saturn's DAYTONA immediately looked dated after the first few racing games hit the PS1, like Ridge Racer.

Quote:


What was the competition then? N64 and Jaguar maybe and Saturn? It was more powerful than the first 2 I don't remember the specs on the Saturn.

Saturn...then the N64. Finally the 3DO and the Jaguar, but the Jaguar was doomed from the get-go and the 3DO was just too damned expensive. Also at the time the re-vamped commodore Amiga system the CD500 or whatever that system was called briefly made an appearance, also doomed to failure due to lack of support....
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post #2339 of 6254
1/5/12 at 12:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post


Your memory is fading....The N64 was not as powerful as the PS1. I admit we are comparing apples and oranges here but the system ran with a slower chip which couldn't handle higher resolutions or complex polygons, but it DID have filtering on-chip (AF filtering) so textures looked smoother off-axis, but the N64 couldn't pump anywhere near the number of polys that the Ps1 could and its games were lucky to achieve framerates in the mid 20's.

What? The n64 had better texturing for sure. It wasnt AF, it had trilinear filtering and perspective correction, something so basic that the Ps1 lacked. It also had a much faster CPU, more ram, WAY more memory bandwidth. IIRC a higher color
depth as well. It also supported higher resolutions in its later days.

The ps1 could put out more untextured/poorly textured polys, but had more than its fair share of games with a ****** framerate. It's main advantage will always have been the CD.

Let's not rewrite history here. It's too bad there weren't too many cross platform games back then to compare side by side, but the n64 was unquestionably more powerful by most measures.
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post #2340 of 6254
1/5/12 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

What? The n64 had better texturing for sure. It wasnt AF, it had trilinear filtering and perspective correction, something so basic that the Ps1 lacked. It also had a much faster CPU, more ram, WAY more memory bandwidth. IIRC a higher color
depth as well. It also supported higher resolutions in its later days.

Trilinear, thats what I meant....not sure what "perspective correction" is, sounds like marketing. But the system's "much faster CPU, more RAM and more memory bandwidth" accounted for exactly nothing when you look at the games that were produced for the system.

Quote:


The ps1 could put out more untextured/poorly textured polys, but had more than its fair share of games with a ****** framerate. It's main advantage will always have been the CD.

No, its main advantage was its versatility, a CD simply holds information. If you're telling me that the N64 could produce more polys and a higher framerate if only it had a CD drive, we'll start up a 15 year old argument.

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Let's not rewrite history here. It's too bad there weren't too many cross platform games back then to compare side by side, but the n64 was unquestionably more powerful by most measures.

Super Mario World versus..what..Metal Gear Solid...or Ridge Racer...or Gran Turismo or.....The N64 was more powerful and producing simplistic, basic worlds in filtered 3D. It couldn't do a decent racing game, its only worthwhile FPS was the conversion of Duke3D (which was good), and of course it had Goldeneye....but you can't seriously compare the N64 games with the plethora of poly-goodness you got with PS1.

Yes, I agree having shaded polygons is a beautiful thing, and something the PS1 was sorely missing...but back in the day you didn't mind so much on your CRT 24 or 27" screen....I mean....Mario Kart versus Gran Turismo? Cmon.
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