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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 113  

post #3361 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

A good portion of it sounds like wishful thinking.

Which is what most people thought about the 360 when they heard about it.
Nothing there seems speculative, what it comes down to is the price point vs. profit margin.
Is MS willing to continue have their console be a loss leader, or are they expecting it to be profitable at launch.
post #3362 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammybastard View Post

Which is what most people thought about the 360 when they heard about it.
Nothing there seems speculative, what it comes down to is the price point vs. profit margin.
Is MS willing to continue have their console be a loss leader, or are they expecting it to be profitable at launch.

Based on the document, they plan on making a profit out of the gate:

Launch Price Point
$299 (with Kinect V2)

Lifecycle
10 year lifecycle with >100 MM lifetime units

Profitability
GM positive every year of the lifecycle

SKU strategy
Flexibility to support multiple SKUS/Config over lifetime


I'm not sure how to translate GM positive from marketing jargon to english. Maybe the hardware will be sold at a slight loss with the expectation that software/service sales can make it up? It sounds like a powerful console, but 8x is the traditional jump consoles make every 5 years. So making that same jump over 8 years instead is actually aiming a little low.
post #3363 of 7006
There was a slide there somewhere that added up to $275, I assumed that was their cost to build.
post #3364 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

There was a slide there somewhere that added up to $275, I assumed that was their cost to build.

One slide says "system cost COGS ~$225". More marketing jargon that I can't understand....Cost Of something something?
post #3365 of 7006
Either way...I think the document is legit...but I wouldn't assume everything in here will come to pass. It's just their vision for what it will be like. You can see that they haven't even decided on x86 or ARM for their architecture yet. But as far as the broad strokes go...this is it.
post #3366 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Either way...I think the document is legit...but I wouldn't assume everything in here will come to pass. It's just their vision for what it will be like. You can see that they haven't even decided on x86 or ARM for their architecture yet. But as far as the broad strokes go...this is it.
And, of course, always keeping in mind that this presentation was from 2010. A lot can change in that amount of time. But, as you say, it does at least give you a sense for the "broad strokes."
post #3367 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So.....in case everyone was wondering what MS has planned for the Xbox 720, and for the next 4 years, in excruciating detail....here you go!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/92821757/XBox-720-9-24-Checkpoint-Draft-1
Apparently this is from 2010, and it's pretty high level. But the legit factor is pretty high. The specs seem pretty solid too. Sounds like everything I was hoping for.
3 CPUs! The main one for apps/games is 6-8 core ARM/x86. Another, smaller one, always on for system apps (dual core). And the Xbox 360 soc (3 core) for backwards compat. Main GPU is DX11.1 capable. Secondary CPU also has its own GPU. 4GB system ram. 32mb or more of edram. Two levels of flash cache (adios load times!). Blu ray. Hard drive. USB 3. Gig Ethernet. Dual 1080p decoding and encoding. The entire system is even designed to be scalable in core count/frequency over time (YES!!).
Targeted at 8x the power of the 360 - so your standard, large upgrade between consoles, not a weak upgrade as some suspected.
There is a LOT more in that document than just specs. Info on kinect 2, cloud plans, even alternate reality glasses called Fortaleza (think google glasses).
2013, $299.
The document seems to have something to it considering the number of times the law firm that Microsoft uses has gotten it removed from websites. It is from 2010 though so some of it is likely wrong (the rumor sites I trust say the Durango CPU is PowerPC which would also handle backward compatibility) and some of it I hope will turn out to be wrong (the system power being 120 watts).
post #3368 of 7006
Yeah, I think from that far out they were just extrapolating what they believed should be possible by 2013. Exact prices, specs, wattages....probably not accurate that far out. But high level stuff like bluray, multiple CPUs, concurrent apps, flash cache, scalable architecture, backwards compat, kinect 2.0....if that's what they envisioned back then, it's still probably going to happen.

But seriously....how insane do those glasses sound? Between that and kinect, it can literally let you interact with a game in ways hardly even imagined before. Literally bringing parts or the entire game into your living room to naturally interact with. That's just...crazy. I love it.
post #3369 of 7006
Glad I read it earlier today cuz when you click that link this is all it says now " This content was removed at the request of Covington & Burling LLP "
post #3370 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeytown Fan View Post

Glad I read it earlier today cuz when you click that link this is all it says now " This content was removed at the request of Covington & Burling LLP "

Yeah...that definitely helps to legitimizes it too.

Ars Technica has a pretty good writeup:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/06/leaked-document-points-to-299-xbox-720-for-2013/

They still have the block diagram with all the tech specs at least.

Another thing I thought was interesting was that while the 360 CPU is included...the GPU isn't. So they'll have to use the main GPU for the rendering, which almost certainly means it has to be AMD/ATI. And if it's AMD graphics, it makes sense that they're also going with them for all the CPUs....which is why we're looking at x86 rather than PPC. Not only that but....AMD is now building chips with x86 and ARM cores on the same chip:

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/amd-to-add-arm-processors-to-boost-chip-security/

So this quite literally could be an x86/ARM hybrid CPU.

Also, using the main GPU for the rendering opens the door to being able to play all your 360 games in 1080p. A lot of xbox 1 games were rendered at 720p on the 360, so there's some historical precedent here.

Just one more year!
post #3371 of 7006
There's a lot there that seems like a wish list rather than what the console will actually end up as. As far as the actual hardware specs go well it's always wise to take it with a grain of salt but it's interesting the take down was issued like that. Seems to at least bring a bit of credibility to the document although that doesn't mean what we see is what we will get, only that MS wishes their internal documents not be leaked like that. Time will tell of course but speculation is at least fun. smile.gif
post #3372 of 7006
Boxing seems fun with the glasses/Kinect 2.0 combo. I can't wait to box Ali in my living room. Or they talk about violent games now, how about pulling out Scorpion's spine while it drips blood on your carpet.

.
post #3373 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

So.....in case everyone was wondering what MS has planned for the Xbox 720, and for the next 4 years, in excruciating detail....here you go!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/92821757/XBox-720-9-24-Checkpoint-Draft-1
Apparently this is from 2010, and it's pretty high level. But the legit factor is pretty high. The specs seem pretty solid too. Sounds like everything I was hoping for.
3 CPUs! The main one for apps/games is 6-8 core ARM/x86. Another, smaller one, always on for system apps (dual core). And the Xbox 360 soc (3 core) for backwards compat. Main GPU is DX11.1 capable. Secondary CPU also has its own GPU. 4GB system ram. 32mb or more of edram. Two levels of flash cache (adios load times!). Blu ray. Hard drive. USB 3. Gig Ethernet. Dual 1080p decoding and encoding. The entire system is even designed to be scalable in core count/frequency over time (YES!!).
Targeted at 8x the power of the 360 - so your standard, large upgrade between consoles, not a weak upgrade as some suspected.
There is a LOT more in that document than just specs. Info on kinect 2, cloud plans, even alternate reality glasses called Fortaleza (think google glasses).
2013, $299.

PDF of the "leaked" document:

http://www.gamefront.com/files/21856362/XBox-720-9-24-Checkpoint-Draft-1.pdf
post #3374 of 7006
I don't think the document is real.
post #3375 of 7006
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/06/18/fresh-microsoft-leak-details-xbox-tablet


Reports around the Internet are surfacing that show an alleged leaked Microsoft press release about an Xbox-branded tablet.

Supposedly named Xbox Surface, the document details a tablet with 7-inch screen and impressive technical specifications that I'm not going to attempt to decode. It apparently also supports "up to 4 wireless game controllers", if it is in fact real.
post #3376 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

I don't think the document is real.

not saying you are wrong (i don't know enough to know real from fake on these things), but if it is fake, what type of person does all this work (putting the doc together) for fun???
post #3377 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

not saying you are wrong (i don't know enough to know real from fake on these things), but if it is fake, what type of person does all this work (putting the doc together) for fun???

The same type of people who do things like this:
http://www.brainpickings.org/index.php/2012/02/16/urville-gilles-trehin/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU

People get obsessed or just into strange things.
post #3378 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

I don't think the document is real.

not saying you are wrong (i don't know enough to know real from fake on these things), but if it is fake, what type of person does all this work (putting the doc together) for fun???

Yeah...hoaxes are never this elaborate. This is the work of a professional. I'm normally pretty skeptical of most leaks since they usually betray themselves as being fake via some crucial misunderstanding. The tech seems carefully thought out, not just the ramblings of some teenager who sees some uber PC specs and extrapolates from there. My spider sense says this one is totally for real.

It does sound a bit like a wish list in places...but shouldn't it? Their aim is to please, otherwise they don't have a compelling product.
post #3379 of 7006
Yea, I don't know. Even if it is totally real, it's pretty old. Some of it is a safe bet (Kinect 2), but the hardware specs would likely bear little resemblance to the finished product. Well, I hope that's the case, the specs are underwhelming.
post #3380 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Yea, I don't know. Even if it is totally real, it's pretty old. Some of it is a safe bet (Kinect 2), but the hardware specs would likely bear little resemblance to the finished product. Well, I hope that's the case, the specs are underwhelming.
Which is why Epic has been using its UE4 demo to strong arm MS and Sony into upping their game.
post #3381 of 7006
Epic has undoubtedly already made their influence felt on the hardware. I am sure Epic is one of the first places both MS and Sony call when designing hardware. But, in the end, Epic doesn't have to spend the cash to build these things.

I don't know what to expect. A dude from Nvidia just said that current PC GPUs are 24x more powerful than the 360. So releasing a system that is 8x more powerful (these are all estimates, of course), in 2013 seems pedestrian. But even if they made it, say, 20x more powerful, it would still be lapped in a short amount of time.
post #3382 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Epic has undoubtedly already made their influence felt on the hardware. I am sure Epic is one of the first places both MS and Sony call when designing hardware. But, in the end, Epic doesn't have to spend the cash to build these things.

I don't know what to expect. A dude from Nvidia just said that current PC GPUs are 24x more powerful than the 360. So releasing a system that is 8x more powerful (these are all estimates, of course), in 2013 seems pedestrian. But even if they made it, say, 20x more powerful, it would still be lapped in a short amount of time.

Well, it does have the advantage of being limited to 1080p, whereas PCs are going to keep pushing ever more ridiculous resolutions. 8x more powerful is a standard console gen progression....its taken a little while longer, but it's a solid leap over current gen.

I still do hope that Sony outclasses them in raw power, and/or they do increase the power of the system midway through the cycle.
post #3383 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by number1laing View Post

Epic has undoubtedly already made their influence felt on the hardware. I am sure Epic is one of the first places both MS and Sony call when designing hardware. But, in the end, Epic doesn't have to spend the cash to build these things.
I don't know what to expect. A dude from Nvidia just said that current PC GPUs are 24x more powerful than the 360. So releasing a system that is 8x more powerful (these are all estimates, of course), in 2013 seems pedestrian. But even if they made it, say, 20x more powerful, it would still be lapped in a short amount of time.

Well, last gen Microsoft upped the production cost $1B to add addtional RAM, at the advice of Epic. So, I would think they'd have some influence again.
post #3384 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbexperience View Post

Well, last gen Microsoft upped the production cost $1B to add addtional RAM, at the advice of Epic. So, I would think they'd have some influence again.

That's true, but realistically I don't expect much more out of the next system than, say, a midrange PC today. Even that is optimistic. It's obvious MS is targetting a broader market than just hardcore gamers with this thing.

Now, even that is a lot. Obviously you could play pretty much any game on 360 today at 1080p/60fps with no problem. It could even run a game like Battlefield 3 at good settings at 1080p/60fps. So, it's a big leap over the current hardware. A lot of people will be very happy. I just am doubtful about the room it has to grow. Once UE4 development gets revved up, I fully expect a drop to 720p/30fps.
post #3385 of 7006
Thread Starter 
I've read a little bit about this "leaked" document, but didn't really get too far into it, because I assumed it was bogus. Could somebody explain the glasses/hologram thing ? That sounds pretty interesting, but also not feasible this quickly. Or if somebody has a link to what the hell the "Fortaleza Glasses" are. When I first saw that, I thought it had something to do with Forza, the racing game, lol.
post #3386 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

I've read a little bit about this "leaked" document, but didn't really get too far into it, because I assumed it was bogus. Could somebody explain the glasses/hologram thing ? That sounds pretty interesting, but also not feasible this quickly. Or if somebody has a link to what the hell the "Fortaleza Glasses" are. When I first saw that, I thought it had something to do with Forza, the racing game, lol.

Basically, the glasses would place virtual objects around your space. In working with Kinect, it could make a 3d model of your room and have characters appear in different places. So, in theory, a virtual soldier could be using your couch as cover. The glasses could also be used for things as simple as a hud.

Google has been working on a similar idea with their project glass which is apparently quite far along.

It would explain the high number of cores and large amounts of ram if true.
Edited by Monger - 6/18/12 at 11:28am
post #3387 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

I've read a little bit about this "leaked" document, but didn't really get too far into it, because I assumed it was bogus. Could somebody explain the glasses/hologram thing ? That sounds pretty interesting, but also not feasible this quickly. Or if somebody has a link to what the hell the "Fortaleza Glasses" are. When I first saw that, I thought it had something to do with Forza, the racing game, lol.

Basically, the glasses would place virtual objects around your space. In working with Kinect, it could make a 3d model of your room and have characters appear in different places. So, in theory, a virtual soldier could be using your couch as cover.

Google has been working on a similar idea with their project glass which is apparently quite far along.

Not only that, but since kinect is tracking your motion and knows where you are in that virtual space, you could directly interact with whatever you saw. Pick it up, move it around, knock it over, etc. The possibilities are absolutely endless. And while it sounds very far fetched..it's really just bringing together a host of established technology with software. Really the only new thing here is the glasses, but they've been demonstrated in prototypes for years.

I think something like this has the potential to take the world by storm, like the wii....if they have great software for it. It's not just the obvious next step, better graphics etc....this is truly some next generation stuff.

Oh, and Fortaleza and Natal are both coastal cities in brazil. tongue.gif If this is a hoax, the mastermind behind it REALLY did their homework.
post #3388 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Not only that, but since kinect is tracking your motion and knows where you are in that virtual space, you could directly interact with whatever you saw. Pick it up, move it around, knock it over, etc. The possibilities are absolutely endless. And while it sounds very far fetched..it's really just bringing together a host of established technology with software. Really the only new thing here is the glasses, but they've been demonstrated in prototypes for years.
I think something like this has the potential to take the world by storm, like the wii....if they have great software for it. It's not just the obvious next step, better graphics etc....this is truly some next generation stuff.
Oh, and Fortaleza and Natal are both coastal cities in brazil. tongue.gif If this is a hoax, the mastermind behind it REALLY did their homework.

Yeah, just imagine the shape of your living room after a night filled with lsd and the coming zombie apocalypse.
post #3389 of 7006
Thread Starter 
Ok, so maybe the technology is actually possible, but on a mass consumer level ? How much are these wonder glasses supposed to cost ? Would these glasses be included with the system at launch, or is it something that would come later ? If it's something that would come later, then you have the whole splintered user base thing. If it's coming with the system, then MS should hire Ken Kutaragi to tell us we'll need 3 jobs to afford the console !
post #3390 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Not only that, but since kinect is tracking your motion and knows where you are in that virtual space, you could directly interact with whatever you saw. Pick it up, move it around, knock it over, etc. The possibilities are absolutely endless. And while it sounds very far fetched..it's really just bringing together a host of established technology with software. Really the only new thing here is the glasses, but they've been demonstrated in prototypes for years.
I think something like this has the potential to take the world by storm, like the wii....if they have great software for it. It's not just the obvious next step, better graphics etc....this is truly some next generation stuff.
Oh, and Fortaleza and Natal are both coastal cities in brazil. tongue.gif If this is a hoax, the mastermind behind it REALLY did their homework.

the problem is i just can't see it getting past the "gimmicky" feel. I just can't imagine it replacing a controller for the type of game i like to play. I own all 3 systems and was very excited for all the possibilities of the wii, but only a couple of games really used the tech right (metriod prime 3) and so far with kinect there is not one game i would prefer to play... not saying it couldn't be amazing, just saying until someone implements the tech right (i have had eyetoy, etc...) i will just stick with a controller...
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