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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 126  

post #3751 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

In doing so there is a very real risk of F2P, lowest common denominator titles crowding out the more ambitious titles. The race to the bottom is a very real threat, and I'm not sure what place it has on a console. Ultimately we're going to get what we pay for....do we really want Xbox to be the equivalent of a 99c store?

Like I said before, F2P games are abundant on PC and they are real games, as full-featured as a boxed game. Tribes: Ascend is considered one of the best MP games out there period, and it is free-to-play. Path of Exile is a long and deep action-RPG (like Diablo 3). Planetside 2 is a huge large-scale multiplayer game like MAG or Battlefield 3. Firefall is another one. Team Fortress 2 just went F2P. Crytek just said all their future games will be F2P.

Just because a game is labeled F2P doesn't mean it is cheap, chintzy garbage. Some great developers are working on F2P games. It's just a different business model. There is no race to the bottom - developers aren't competing on price, they are competing on quality and what they offer to the gamer.

I'm not talking about terrible non-games designed to addict you like Farmville or Tiny Tower. I *HATE* those types of games, because they aren't real games. I am talking about real games with lots of content from established developers in established genres. There are lots of these games.

Obviously there are issues with F2P (can a game like Skyrim be made F2P? I don't see it) but the market is definitely moving in that direction.
post #3752 of 7006
I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very resistant to the idea of being nickled and dimed in my day to day gaming, even if the game is good. I cant imagine any way to make most of the games I play into F2P without diminishing them. As far as I'm concerned, the only good thing about F2P is that its free. Thats not always the deciding factor though....my time is more limited than my money - I'd rather pay for the better experience with what little gaming time I have left.
post #3753 of 7006
It's already out there to be seen. Tribes got a 10/10 from Eurogamer. Team Fortress 2 has gotten nothing but praise for five years. Look at some Planetside 2 videos. Those are free games. Games like Halo or COD don't do anything those games do not, in terms of content and feature set. Any console would be better off for having games like T:A, TF2 PC, or PS2 available.

I didn't even get into DOTA 2 or League of Legends.

And we already are being nickled and dimed on boxed games.
post #3754 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'll believe it when I see it. I'm very resistant to the idea of being nickled and dimed in my day to day gaming, even if the game is good. I cant imagine any way to make most of the games I play into F2P without diminishing them. As far as I'm concerned, the only good thing about F2P is that its free. Thats not always the deciding factor though....my time is more limited than my money - I'd rather pay for the better experience with what little gaming time I have left.
That's a common fear, but the reality doesn't support your fear. As number1laing points out, the best F2P games give you everything you could want for free. They make money because they scale payments according to players' degree of investment, not their skill or progress. Basically, those who invest more money support those who just want to play for free. The highest 10% of buy-ins subsidize the remaining 90% of players. But that highest 10% isn't any better or more successful at the game. They are just gamers who are willing to spend more. Works out well for everyone IMO. And BTW this also proves why I think piracy fears are totally bogus.

It would be something like if Lucas decided to release the Star Wars movies for free. But then you could pay for various extras and collectibles. The serious Star Wars collectors and fans would then subsidize everyone else's ability to watch the movie for free. Same basic principle here. I agree that it could easily turn really bad (advertizing, locked storylines, etc), but so far, the successful F2P games have been exceptionally fair to those who pay nothing. The fear is there, but the reality has been incredibly kind to gamers.

My only real problem with it is that F2P doesn't work well in all genres, especially on console. It works great for PC and mobile genres, but less well for traditional console genres. Also, the console business model isn't well suited to making money with F2P unless it's backed directly by one of the platform holders (Sony, MS, Nintendo). But once one of the big three figures out how to make it work profitably, it'll catch on like wildfire.
Edited by confidenceman - 8/11/12 at 5:01pm
post #3755 of 7006
post #3756 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

going to be interesting to see what happens here
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/13/alleged-xbox-720-dev-kit-sold-on-ebay

I don't see what makes a most likely fake dev kit cause anything to get interesting. If this was real the person or person are idiots. The dev kits are not owned by the developers and they are binded by contract and NDA. Not difficult for MS to do an actual inventory of these dev kits sent out and handle their business.
post #3757 of 7006
wouldn't it be funny if the guy was just selling the picture? I remember an article in Gizmodo or Engadget where that happened. the guy was duped into spending at least $500 for some console or something unique but he didn't read the vague description correctly.
post #3758 of 7006
Digital Foundry has been posting about it, and he says it's most likely real. That's good enough for me.

I hope a website bought it and blows it open like Gizmodo did with the iPhone 4.
post #3759 of 7006
He could also be working for Microsoft. With the guy's conspicuous online presence, you have to wonder if it is all just a viral marketing campaign...
post #3760 of 7006
I suspect it's some publicity thing, but who knows.
post #3761 of 7006
post #3762 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

He could also be working for Microsoft. With the guy's conspicuous online presence, you have to wonder if it is all just a viral marketing campaign...
Even more likely is that MS is choosing to do nothing because some random dude is doing their work for them. By neither denying nor confirming any of the rumors floating around, they don't have to say anything for a while. But all signs continue to point toward fall 2013.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami 
well i would say this is a pretty reliable source!!

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/16/ea-labels-president-ive-seen-ps4-and-xbox-720
Not to mention that we've already seen next-gen games demoed at E3 (Watch Dogs and Star Wars 1313). And in the months following E3, big publishers have been more open about their next gen plans. Square Enix, for example, just announced that the relaunched FF14 will be "scalable" to next-gen consoles.
post #3763 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

well i would say this is a pretty reliable source!!
http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/08/16/ea-labels-president-ive-seen-ps4-and-xbox-720

Reading through the comments from that article made me reconsider a few things about the imminent NexGen launches. And my approach changes by the hour with it.
"Lagonz said: I have been replaying my games, which I forgot how awesome the experience gets with every playthrough. And collecting, and I mean collecting "for playing", not collecting "for having". In a way, today's crap has given me a better time with the classics. Garantied fun."

That is interesting to me because it is exactly what I am going to do. I plan to mod my XBox 1 just like "onlysublime" did. Thanks Sublime for the instructions...I'll definitely PM you when I get started with it. And then I plan to use my new, super amped PC as the NexGen gaming workhorse for awhile...and see how much MS and Sony converge Windows 8, Steam, Durango and PSX with it. If I can just get by with the PC with some exclusive XBox, PSX, Steam enhancements/addons, SSD's & etc...I'll be good to go. And I won't even buy a NexGen until well into the next cycle (if ever). Like Lagonz and others on the IGN thread, I am looking forward to replaying all of my classic XBox 1...XB360...PS 3 games over again (from my own Library for free). II'll do nexGen games...including Halo...but on PC. Because they are all highly likely to be available through Windows 8 Live...and with interface with XBL achievements & etc. There is also a huge market of XBox 360, PS 3 and PC games I never bought in this generation. They will be cheap as dirt. And I will swell my library with them instead of used games for essentially a much lower cost FTP horde. The only NexGen I am likely to buy right away is a Nintendo WiiU to do the same with Wii titles. I skipped Wii in this generation because it was not HD. It was the first time in my life I passed on Nintendo. I will catch up with them on WiiU.

So I guess my thinking has changed over the life of this thread. Some of the early commenters like MByrnes, Daekwan etc may have been right about the lifecycle being way too long in this generation...BD2003 has been a consistent advocate for that pov too. That long life cycle caused me to roam elsewhere out of curiosity...and lock into staying put where I am satisfied. MS and Sony will have to come up with something pretty compelling to get me to pop on a new console. Especially if I can link it with my PC with just a $99.00 addon. Better graphics, higher resolution (even 4k x 2k) and quicker framerates won't be enough to make me bite. I already have that capacity with my PC. Nintendo could easily win NexGen too with WiiU ( a lower tech solution). Because they finally gave me and others what we wanted from them the first time around (true HD Zelda & Mario). That's why I still see MS and Sony ceding the stage to Nintendo in 2013 with WiiU to gauge the market. In other words to see just how little they can get away with in NexGen.
post #3764 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by confidenceman View Post

Even more likely is that MS is choosing to do nothing because some random dude is doing their work for them. By neither denying nor confirming any of the rumors floating around, they don't have to say anything for a while. But all signs continue to point toward fall 2013.
Not to mention that we've already seen next-gen games demoed at E3 (Watch Dogs and Star Wars 1313). And in the months following E3, big publishers have been more open about their next gen plans. Square Enix, for example, just announced that the relaunched FF14 will be "scalable" to next-gen consoles.

Has it not been stated countless times now that Watch Dogs has already been confirmed to be for PC, 360 and PS3 with the demo most likely being the PC with DirectX 11? Same for SW 1313, it was another PC demo probably using DirectX 11. What makes these two games any different than when Battlefield kept being shown on the PC for the longest before the console versions were actually shown?

http://www.el33tonline.com/past/2012/8/16/gamescom_2012_star_wars_1313/

Here is the newest Gamescom trailer for SW 1313 which was shown to be on a PC yet somehow they are trying to mask this is an actual next-gen game? Why show it at all? What we are seeing in both Watch Dogs and SW 1313 is the same features we have been seeing in the latest Crytek DirectX 11 trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOzm02HN78s&feature=player_embedded


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAVpychkIbA
post #3765 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

Here is the newest Gamescom trailer for SW 1313 which was shown to be on a PC yet somehow they are trying to mask this is an actual next-gen game? Why show it at all?
These publishers have to be careful not to spill the beans, but the assumption throughout the industry (journos and developers) is that these are both intended as next-gen titles. Only after the launch trailers did each publisher then clarify that they'll get released on current gen systems. But if that was their primary target, they would have said as much during the announcements. That was the unsaid part of those announcements, and everyone took it to mean exactly that. Clearly, they're teasing the next gen, but they can't say it directly since neither Sony nor MS has announced anything.

EDIT: Also, as to your "why show it at all?" question: remember that one of the primary functions of E3 is as a showcase to investors and retailers. Even though third-parties are hamstrung in how much they can actually say about the next generation, that won't stop them from fulfilling their business obligations and relationships. In addition, many big publishers have recently gotten vocal about their dissatisfaction with how long this generation has lasted. Similar to what Epic did with its UE4 demo, third-party publishers are trying to force MS's and Sony's hands a bit. They're hoping to keep them on track for a new console cycle in the near future.

So, they showed these trailers because it's a way to please investors while also putting pressure on console manufacturers. Of course, it also gets their consumer base excited (which further pleases investors and pressures manufacturers).
Edited by confidenceman - 8/16/12 at 9:39pm
post #3766 of 7006
Time to do a Michael Corleone on this fossilized thread...and bring it back in! I will assume all of the tech specs are bleeding edge befitting an "Uber" upgrade to this generation consoles. So i want to log my wish list on the Next Generation games themselves. Borrowing from the theme of Halo 2 Anniversary thread...I truly hope MS and some of the major devs spend some quality time doing very high quality remakes of game epics. IMO there is a gold mine out there just waiting to be mined. All MS and the Devs need to do to tap it is fully commit to making the epics better in every way than the originals. Including modifying and back engineering the stories themselves.

For example:...Remake Halo 2 in all of its glory. But add 2-3 totally new chapters. One Chapter would allow Master Chief to fight with the ODST team and lead them to a side quest called "Halo ODST" in all of its remade glory. the Next Chapter would give us an expanded view of the "Prophets" via their interaction with the old Arbiter. That morphs into a side quest or campaign of the old arbiter actually turning into "The Heretic". I'd love to see this kind of bridging chapter to fully explore how the Prophets manipulate and control the Covenant. And The final bridging chapter would be a much better transition to a fully updated Halo 3 with end of story enhancements leading to 2-3 new ODST and Elite sidequests (available as DLC). Add in a final "campaign" feature which allows 2-8 "Friends", to play an extreme online multiplayer coop level beyond Legendary. Available as DLC after finishing the full game on single player campaign with all of the sidequests.

New players to the Halo world via Durango would experience Halo in its full glory before moving forward with Halo 4-6. I know the game itself would be gigantic and require a Blu-Ray to do it right. But it would be an epic remake that tells a complete Halo middle story in a very compelling way. No need for MS to guild the lilly on pricing either. Because they have already made a ton of dough on the original releases. Put it out there at regular pricing...make money on the DLC...and it will sale like crazy. I think the exact same thing can be done with several game franchises with Durango. And enjoy immediate success. Valve could relaunch the entire Half Life series and add in HL3 that way. Throw in an extreme multi-player/coop DLC option like above and they would roll in the dough! In fact...Valve sorta already blazed part of the way with this idea with "Orange Box". King's Quest could be remade for Next Gen like this. So could SpaceQuest...Worlds of Xeen...Prey 1 & Prey 2...and others. I would be just as excited about the Next gen remake market as I would for the new franchises. Especially If they do them right. Meaning...tinker with the originals to make the whole experience better. Just don't let the re-engineering stray so far from the original that it becomes unrecognizable.

Let the true originals live with the consoles they were made for.
post #3767 of 7006
Good news and bad news article.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/09/06/xbox-720-could-be-delayed-by-manufacturing-trouble

Good news first. If the article is true BD2003 and a few others deserve the Champagne toast for accurately predicting a late fall or holiday 2013 date.

Bad news second. If the article is accurate, the wafer yield problem could negatively impact early adopters and the launch timetable. The QA/QC problem could be too scary considering all of the early failure problems they had with the XBox 360. I wasn't going to pop early on it anyway. But I sure would like to see it launch asap to start evaluating it relative to Windows 8 and my new PC.
post #3768 of 7006
After reading that, I am not touching a new Microsoft until the first hardware redesign, the RRoD disaster has made me afraid of their hardware design. I don't trust Sony much either, the PS2 DRE and the time bomb PS3 launch units, not getting their next system at launch either even if the AMD APU rumors are true.

About the only hardware I trust at launch is Nintendo's since they actually have a quality control team... Just a few more days until Nintendo lets the cat out and the NDAs expire.
post #3769 of 7006
You can also read that to mean that the new chip is an absolute monstrosity in terms of die size and/or clock speed, the typical reasons for low yields. They wouldn't be running into those issues with a more pedestrian or conservative design.
post #3770 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

You can also read that to mean that the new chip is an absolute monstrosity in terms of die size and/or clock speed, the typical reasons for low yields. They wouldn't be running into those issues with a more pedestrian or conservative design.

That is probably true. All the more reason to avoid the launch version of their console.
post #3771 of 7006
A few random thoughts...

Low die yield could be caused by fab process issues or by test limits (I suppose a combination of the two is also possible). Either of these would be exacerbated by a complex/highly-integrated design, like bd2003 mentioned above. i.e. "functional blocks X/Y/Z pass, blocks A and B are functional but don't meet spec, and block C is flat-out dead"

Assuming the new chip is indeed an aggressive design... from a project management standpoint, I can't imagine Microsoft would put a such high-risk item on the critical path. I tend to believe the schedule slack referred to in the article sounds reasonable. Microsoft will have left themselves some breathing room to work through unforeseen issues without impacting launch date. That said, with enough delays, the chip could end up on the critical path (in which case the fabs and/or the design engineers can expect a spankin').

Yield problems at the die/chip level don't necessarily imply a functionality/reliability problem at the box level. I have to imagine there are test levels for the entire Xbox and for its subassemblies, all the way down to the chip/die itself. I have a feeling the chip/die is probably going to be 100% inspected for at least the first several lots, possibly on a sampling basis once some number of consecutive high-yield lots have been produced. The higher levels of assembly may not be tested as rigorously - depends on how fast they can run automated tests on them - but any failures due to the chip-die should be screened out.
post #3772 of 7006
Yeah, this shouldn't really influence anyone's purchasing decision. Theyre not going to make the same mistake twice....if they're already in full production for the chips a year out, they've still got plenty of time to get it right by next fall.

I don't think there was ever any doubt it would be a custom design....that worked out great for them with the 360.
post #3773 of 7006
I would think that if they can't make enough they will cut back on who gets the initial launch, ie. USA first and possibly the UK along with us. Then they will delay the other markets to later dates. I am in with others that this not a sign of build quality. This happens all the time with electronics. I just hope this doesn't jack up the cost of the console. I also believe that this means they are going after a radical design, or a size that is smaller than normal (Or both). Either way I will be pre-ordering as soon as I can. I want this launch day!

If anyone remembers MS was flying in 360s when it launched to get it into the market as fast as possible. I would think they will go to all lengths to get this available, especially if Sony gets the PS4 out in 2013 (I think they will). Last time MS had the market to themselves, this time they will be fighting it out with everyone. They have the money to make sure they launch when they want to. I just hope money is a problem solver in this case.
post #3774 of 7006
Even though I am concerned about the QC/QA profile of XBox Durango...It is not the primary reason I will not be an early adopter. I just don't think it is going to be a true Nexgen by the purest definition of what that seems to mean. But I do believe it is potentially a formidable convergence of everything happening right now. And that can be very NexGenish and exciting for everyone. The following link from IGN illuminates some of this. especially the comment area. Many of the ideas or concepts we have already beat to death here. But to actually see a lot of it being adopted is exciting.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2012/09/07/future-of-gaming-touchscreen-tablet-gaming-episode-2

So my bottom line is the same. I will wait and see if Durango is the best replacement for my XBox 360. Or can I get away with a DX11 capable PC with Blu-Ray drive/Windows 8/Surface/XBox 360 based system that delivers pretty much the same thing. I will definitely jump on the PS Orbis/Vita platform early. Just because I love the feel and synergy about what they are doing. But make no mistake about it. I will own the best of the XBox world too. I just may have to wait a while longer to see what that really is. In fact...so far MS seems to be heading down the more interesting path. And that is giving a wide range of choices and options.
post #3775 of 7006
Up to now, hardware in game consoles was something to get excited about. Unless they have some magic tricks up their sleeves the next gen is going to hit a ceiling. There's really nothing amazing that could possibly be put into a machine that isn't already there or in my PC. This will be the first generation of game hardware I'm not at all looking forward to seeing. They also better have some fantastic exclusives to even get me to buy one. Halo and Gears are not going to cut it for me. Uncharted either, for the other camp, that third game came way too quick and burned that light out pretty quick.
post #3776 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yrd View Post

Up to now, hardware in game consoles was something to get excited about. Unless they have some magic tricks up their sleeves the next gen is going to hit a ceiling. There's really nothing amazing that could possibly be put into a machine that isn't already there or in my PC. This will be the first generation of game hardware I'm not at all looking forward to seeing. They also better have some fantastic exclusives to even get me to buy one. Halo and Gears are not going to cut it for me. Uncharted either, for the other camp, that third game came way too quick and burned that light out pretty quick.

That's usually how I felt and the end of every gen when I was still a PC gamer. I didn't even get a 360 until 2007, there was nothing really there over my PC. Within two years or so, the exclusives start to pile up, the devs get better with the hardware. The truth is, you wouldn't have missed terribly much if all you had for the last 7 years was a 360, PS3, or an up to date PC. Next gen will probably be no different. What moved me to consoles over the PC was the ease of playing with friends, the ease of use in a living room, cheap used games, and less bugs/patch BS. Steam is solving many of those issues, but it's not all the way there. If I still did most of my gaming at a desk by myself, I'd probably not care for next gen either.
post #3777 of 7006
Speaking of the Steam Boat...Check out this article from today's NY Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/09/technology/valve-a-video-game-maker-with-few-rules.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120909

I really see NexGen unfolding in 3 different ways. MS seems more focused on blending PC/mobile/media based applications and functionality that can translate seamlessly into a living room. As someone mentioned earlier...they're headed down a more tactile driven gaming path. Sony seems headed more down the high end visual gaming path (to me)...full exploration of cutting edge visual experiences. They are really, really zeroed in on true nexgen display and visual technologies. I know that many will chime in that MS is too with DX 11. And up to a point that is correct. But DX 11 is really this generation technology. It's just not widely used because of current console hardware constraints. And turbulence in the Game Developer world. Nintendo is...welll...Nintendo. Love'em or hate'em.

And then we have outlyers like Valve that are tinkering with real bona-fide Next Generation stuff. Sony is naturally tampering with this too. My bottom line is that I am more excited about what's coming from Valve and Sony than MS. I believe...based on what I have read so far...that they are closer to where we need to be 5-10 years from now. Meaning creating completely new kind of gaming experiences. From full room to small spaces. Don't read into this that I am uninterested in XBox Durango. I am very much so. It just isn't my first NexGen priority anymore. Because I believe it will be just about doing what we are already doing...better. Which is a good thing. In many ways that is the Nintendo approach too. And right now between the 2 of them they own the console videogame business. But if a company like Valve can pull off something like this, the tide could really turn in 5 years. And the future could easily belong to Sony/Nintendo...Valve...Apple. With MS playing catchup. It is going to be truly a fascinating thing to watch...starting with the WiiU launch.

But at the end of the day...know what? I wish someone in Valve would just figure out who is really in charge there. And just make Half Life 3 for PC/XBox Durango/PS Orbis...before heading down the hardware yellow brick road.
post #3778 of 7006
Thread Starter 
Is it just me, or is gaming getting kinda boring right now ?


Man, I'm telling you, my interest level in gaming overall is at an all time low. I have almost no desire to fire up any games for some reason. I really think we should have had a legit next-gen console released by now. This gen has dragged on way too long. Nothing on the Xbox 360 or PS3 really excites me. I need to see something new and exciting, and I think it's going to take some new hardware to come out for it to happen.
post #3779 of 7006
It's definitely not just you, but this has also been a really, really terrible year for gaming so far.
post #3780 of 7006
gaming is gaming. if you can't get excited by any of the games on the PC, Xbox, Playstation, iOS, Android, etc., then a new console won't fix that. then it's on your changed behavior... a new console will then just be a shiny new toy that you get bored of like any other gadget.
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