Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 127

See I disagree with this. Reason is, the hardware gets to a point that developers really can't offer a lot of new things. I am a big FPS gamer, and outside of some gimmicky stuff, games haven't changed much the past few years. COD is limited by the 60 FPS they give us, and that eats a lot of power away from new things. A.I., Physics, etc remain the same and after a while this gets boring. It takes a few years for developers to max out a system, but once they get there it comes down to features. The 360 started with COD 2, COD 3, and by COD 4 (MW) they hit a good stride. MW2 was my favorite of the group, mostly due to me having the least amount of problems playing it online. I can't say MW2 was anything ground breaking over COD 4, just new maps and killstreaks galore. I really can't say any COD games beyond that made the leaps the first few did each year (well really COD 2, MW, MW2 were from the same team). So by the 4th year the system was basically at its limits. The past few COD games have gotten a little more from the hardware, but not much.

This does not mean that gaming was bad the past few years. There have been plenty of great games that have come out, but overall everything is starting to feel "been there and done this before". I am one of the few people who actually likes going through the growing pains of a new system. Launch titles are better than the previous system, but not by a lot. By the end of the first year true next gen titles start to appear and the next gen finally starts to feel like it has arrived (games not possible on previous systems). The following 2-3 years after that is my favorite period as developers finally start getting a lot out of the system. I don't game on PC or my phone a whole lot. I am mostly a console gamer and don't see that changing anytime soon. I really wish we were getting a new Xbox or PS this year. I can wait another year, as there are still a few games I look forward to playing. But for the first time this gen, I will not be buying COD on launch. I will wait to see how the masses respond to it here at AVS, and if lag isn't as bad as the past few, I will pick it up. Nothing about Blops 2 has me excited so I can wait, and I really expect just more of the same gameplay with a few tweaks thrown in.

I have gone through this feeling with every console I have ever owned. The nice thing is that usually by the time I get this feeling I have a year or less until the new console is released. I will have to wait longer this gen, but in reality it is only gaming and isn't necessary for life.

then that means you'll hate gaming for quite awhile. unless you believe the next gen of consoles will truly be above and beyond the best PCs out there... and if you don't like what the best PCs are outputting, there's no hope for you.

There have been plenty of great games that have come out, but overall everything is starting to feel "been there and done this before".

And I don't believe for one second that will change significantly with consoles scheduled to come out in the next year or two. Unless the economy takes off like a rocket...and the incentives to "Game change" increase exponentially. IMO it's not just the consoles that have to change. The whole gaming experience needs to change. That's what happened when people morphed from Atari-PC-Nintendo-better PC-Sega-better PC-Sony-XBox-I-phones/mobile mobile-better PC. It's been said before by me and others, that Nexgen is really shaping up to be a full exploitation of technology and game physics available cheaply today. Call it full optimization. But the future and real next generation gaming is headed this way (links below). And all of the major players in the industry are playing with different pieces and applications of the toys required to get it there post Durango...PS Orbis...WiiU...Steambox...Ouya...et al. The gaming experience that some are seeking will fall flat fast when this kind of potential is fully exploited over the next 10 years. Gaming will be about "how physical and real do you want to go in a game?" Some will be maxing out in their holodeck enhanced man-caves. Some will be dropped into immersive VR worlds. Some will game on superior displays on more powerful consoles not very different from today. But there will be a blending of sorts with all of the systems. JMO

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ingame/microsoft-making-gaming-holodeck-your-home-992578
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/ingame/sonys-newest-3-d-goggles-get-their-game-993039

You're looking in the wrong place. As games got prohibitively expensive to make, talented developers took advantage of different technologies.

For example, look at what's happened with digital distribution. All the newest, most innovative, most visually stunning games are being released as smaller scale digital-only titles. They're pushing that particular technology as far as it can go, and being forced to look for creative alternatives to big-budget tech. Doing so has led to some of the best games of the past decade, and cutting-edge content is still getting released this late in the generation.

As another example, look at what's happened with connected games. Online interaction (not in MMOs or in competitive multiplayer) is another big way developers continue to push the envelope. Games like Dark Souls and Trials Evolution are pushing that boundary with "passive" online features. Supposedly first-party Wii U games will be doing something very similar.

Point is, if "new things" means sexy new technology possible only on the highest end hardware that pushes processing speed to its absolute limit, then, yes, you're right. But if by "new things" you actually mean new things, you're simply looking in the wrong place.

One thing that always seems to pop up at the end of a console generation is doubt in where the new console will take us. When the 360 was launching, the majority seemed to think the games looked barely better than OG Xbox and gaming wasn't going to get any better, just prettier. Well looking back, this gen has pushed gaming into areas none of us really saw coming (If you did you should tell me what stocks to buy, lol). Dead Rising had so many characters on screen at once it was mind blowing and not possible before (many other games took advantage of this afterwards). A.I. Enemies didn't act like mentally challenged people, like they did in so many games the previous gen. Gaming definitely got better besides better graphics.

One thing that usually happens, is new franchises. This is what excites me the most. Bioshock, Gears of War, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Dead Space, Mass Effect, etc. are all great franchises introduced this gen. With new hardware, developers can take ideas that may not have been possible before and flesh them out the way they want. Of course certain franchises will continue on, but I am sure new franchises will flourish from nothing. If history repeats itself, new franchises will grace our screens in no time. THIS is really why I want a new console. Developers seem to be more daring early in a console cycle, and the good games usually get sequels that I want to play.

I have no idea what more powerful hardware can do at this point. All I know is I am ready to find out. My wallet is ready to be emptied on the hope of a great next gen. Bring it!

I am not a PC gamer and have no desire to be one. I understand everything that PC has to offer, but I don't want to go that route. If I did I would be in the PC section and talking to people in there. If you like PC gaming awesome, I have no problems with that at all. It is just not for me. One of the main reasons I game is to play easily with friends. None of my friends own gaming PCs and they never will. All of them have a 360, so if we want to play together online it is very easy.

The next Xbox will be far more powerful than what we have now. Maybe not high end PC, but still far better than the 360 I play now. We still have no idea of the specs, and until we do we can only speculate. The 360 is 7 years old now and will be 8 years old next year. Tech has come a long way in that time.

What's kept me from the leap to PC is that more and more developers are gimping their PC versions of multiplatform games (see recent ports of Darksiders 2 and Dark Souls). If Valve can pull off a coup with their living room Steam push (and publishers follow them), then I'll make the transition for sure. I'll hold off for now.

Regardless, based on the issues with early versions of consoles, I'll hold off for a while there too. Nintendo's got a good track record, so I don't feel any reservations about jumping into Wii U early on. But the next Xbox and PS console will need to prove that they're reliable and stable before I jump in (probably not until 2014). In the meantime, I'll stick to the late-gen retail and downloadable releases. I'm still catching up.

alright, what you're arguing is you're bored of gaming because it's the same-old, same-old games due to hardware limitations. the latest PCs have the latest tech. tech that will rival or be superior to what the next-gen consoles offer. By that logic, what you see running on the latest PCs will be what you're seeing on the next-gen consoles.

really, games have only evolved over time. there's been no revolution. a platforming game still has A to jump, double-A to double jump. B to punch. triggers to do what they do. gameplay hasn't changed significantly for 20 years. how Donkey Kong controlled on the Wii is not that different from how Donkey Kong controlled on the NES.

you take FPS's. they all basically control the same on a console game controller as they have since the very first Halo in 2001. There have been new ideas since then but nothing revolutionary.

So all you're really seeing is games with better graphics and better sound. You look at the upcoming titles for the next-gen systems from the Wii U/720/PS4... And they're all logical progressions of what we already have. The only innovations that have come in the motion control arena with Wii, Kinect, and Move. And yet people fight back and say they want to press A to jump. Microsoft has filed for a patent to show gaming on all 4 walls of a room in a pseudo holodeck. And yet people still cry they want to press A to jump. Right stick to look around.

but now you're bored of gaming? I think maybe your gaming habits have changed. We all get older and games that we once loved, we know longer love the same way. Maybe that's what's happening with you.

keep hope alive!

Depends on the game. But what sucks is that more and more (formerly PC-centric) developers are optimizing everything for console. So as I said above, we're starting to see something that would have been unthinkable 5-10 years ago: PC games that look identical to their counterparts on 6-year old consoles. I was all set to make the leap to PC in the next few months, but then I started seeing example after example of new games that were being hampered by console-centric development. So I'm holding out. Sucks, but until I'm confident that developers are willing to put a little bit more effort into their PC ports, there's no reason.

Could be a really slow and uninteresting gaming year.

Yeah, that's what's really stopping me. PC gaming is finally becoming a realistic couch option, but the new consoles are just around the corner, and they're most likely going to match any midrange system I can build right now. I just cant justify the expense, and the console holding games back feels like its been going on for years. It's still far from the glory days. In a few years the tide might turn again, and by then, PC/Steam might really have the couch thing sorted out.

Back on track, rumors of delays...

http://m.bgr.com/2012/09/06/new-xbox-delay-rumor-early-2014/

these rumors are kind of sad. that post by thumper says the next xbox will have an AMD cpu but previous ones said a newer iteration of the PPC. and the PS4 rumors are all over the place too.

here's the basis of the current rumor:

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/09/04/microsoft-xbox-next-delay-rumors-abound/

either people are just throwing up rumors or there's a lot of subterfuge going on with the game companies. if the AMD rumors are true, it seems like hardware wise, the PS4 and next Xbox will be awfully close since AMD is likely to put their best hardware forward for both platforms (within the silicon/budget allowance provided by MS/Sony). So it's going to come down to features that separate the two.

the exciting part of the article is that the GPU in the next Xbox will be much newer than previously expected.

and an amazing thing about the article was that AMD could be the manufacturer of the GPU for all 3 platforms and the CPU manufacturer for the MS and Sony. That's an amazing publicity coup (if not monetary since AMD would probably have very low margins; having their tech in the Wii and 360 barely moved their bottom line).

It wouldn't surprise me if AMD is in all boxes. Nvidia has done a really bad job two generations in a row.

Would certainly make porting between platforms much easier.

I just hope that one is significantly more powerful than the other. We need some real choice.

this doesn't make sense. if one is significantly more powerful, then you have less choice. having the Wii U much lower than the next Xbox/PS4 has narrowed the choices for me.

Meaning a choice between price vs performance. Assuming they could even port the games to Wii U, they won't run nearly as well. Still up to you to decide. Ideally one just has lots more GPU capacity than the other, but they're otherwise very similar architectures. That way you always know which system has the better looking/performing version of the games, if you care about that.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/02/microsoft-boosts-security-to-prep-for-xbox-720

SSDD...But it seems to be getting closer based on enhanced security. And the folowing is more interesting anyway.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/10/02/our-favorite-game-franchises-10-years-from-today

I have not kept up on why is nVidia losing to AMD in console business. My perception was that Xbox had better graphics capabilities than the competition at the time. What is the general view on how nVidia screwed up on original Xbox and PS3?

on the original Xbox, Microsoft paid for parts, not intellectual property. So Microsoft was locked at the fees set by Nvidia and Nvidia had no incentive to drop the price of the parts. And then the PC world kept moving forward and Microsoft still had to pay the same costs. And then Nvidia had to keep producing the same part specifically for Xbox. So as the PC tech kept advancing, the Xbox parts became more expensive as the parts were being made only for Xbox so they lost the mass production savings. LIke Western Digital/Seagate had moved on to 40 GB hard drives and higher on the PC side of things while they still had to make 8 GB and 10 GB hard drives for Xbox.

On the 360, Microsoft owns the tech. AMD/ATI designed the GPU but Microsoft owns it and is responsible for manufacturing it. It's why the GPU didn't do much for AMD's bottom line.

Nvidia is more focused on high end raw power. AMD has been more focused on raw power in a low energy package. Their Mobile and APU line of chips have been steadily getting better, and are actually outdoing Nvidia and Intel in the same price ranges. (but only on these lower tier chips which are perfect for console design)

The following article from the NY Times creates an interesting capsule of what the videogame companies face in the next generation market. In many ways it implies that NextGen has already happened and was missed completely by the console makers. It was the portable, DD, PC and indie game market that exploded around consoles. We have talked about that trend extensively in this thread. even though there has never been a consensus of opinion. It also elaborates about the impact of the economy and high system cost of consoles as a barrier for new systems. Especially when the huge 200 million plus worldwide console install base is considered. IMO...it is going to be very hard for next gen consoles to uproot such a huge base. especially when lowering costs of the XBox 360, PS3 and even WiiU get tossed into the mix. The article opines that glut of entertainment options, overall consumer satisfaction with current systems and games, gaming market saturation, and rise of portability and lower cost DD quickie games are interacting to create a very blurry picture for consoles. A quote from the article below:

"More than 200 million Wii, Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 systems were sold worldwide. Sales of portable gaming machines surged as well. Upward of 12 million subscribers were paying $15 a month to play the online game World of Warcraft, and competitors were plotting to develop worthy rivals. The motion-sensing Kinect system from Microsoft generated considerable buzz, with its promise of freeing players from having to push buttons and wave wands."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/arts/video-games/video-game-retail-sales-decline-despite-new-hits.html?pagewanted=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20121007

I still really do not believe we will see a PS Next or XBox DUrango in 2013 if this article is prophetic. Instead, I believe MS and Sony will both play the price war game in 2013 by flooring retail prices on the XBox 360 and PS 3 first...to disrupt the WIiU attack. And to prime the market for more upmarket game consoles and franchise title expansion in 2014 and beyond. I also really think MS will want to anchor Surface, Windows 8 and WP8 first before exporting the XBox Live marketplace and App over to PC. That way...when they launch Durango...it will seamlessly integrat into their 4 tiered platform architecture (Surface, WP8, Win-8, XBox).

NextGen is really starting to come into very clear focus. But it is going to be a scary ride for a lot of companies.

I thought you were one of the 2013 guys. Heck, I thought you were one of the possibly 2012 guys.

Nah, we just need new hardware. No gloom and doom, no "mobile has passed the console by". None of that. Just get new hardware out that sparks the imagination of developers. The rest will fall into place. We might not reach sold through numbers like in the past again but it's still a very profitable market.

Nope. I always said 2014 or even later was a more realistic timeframe. I still believe it will be 2014 before we see fullblown XBox Durango or PS 4 launches. What I have conceded is that 2013 could possibly see a soft XBox 360 launch in the US, followed by a full roll out in 2014, based on the veracity of leaks and information provided by others in this thread. I would love to actually see a soft XBox Durango launch next year. Because I don't plan to early adopt anyway. There are still way too many titles for the XBox 360, PS3 and PC that I want to buy. And those prices will crater as soon as new consoles launch. I just want to see what the next Gens are capable of doing ASAP. My early adoption enthusiasm has actually waned as time has passed. Because of many of the reasons stated in that & other articles. If one of them blows me away...perhaps earlier. But it's unlikely based on the PC rig I have. And if Halo 5 and Halo 2 Anniversary are available for PC too...it could be awhile before I pop fo a new console.

The issue isn't what NVIDIA did in the past but what they have done with their recent GPU designs (400/500/600 series). NVIDIA uses a less efficient design than AMD which means for the same overall performance NVIDIA needs to use larger chips which lowers yields, increases costs, increases power consumption, and increases the amount of heat generated. That is a horrible combination for a game console and I think it is very likely that all three next generation game consoles will use AMD GPUs.

From the posts I have read barrelbelly is very much against the idea of a 2013 release date for the next Microsoft game console and I have debated him on this issue a few times. For example in a post that barrelbelly made earlier in this thread he stated that his "confidence level is 100% on 2014-2015".

Okay, so you now believe a 2013 release date is possible for the US. Just to be clear though does this mean that you don't believe that a wider 2013 launch is possible?

What, dare I ask, is a soft launch?