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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 153  

post #4561 of 7006
i can tell you this, that if wiiU is the only one that has "used games" every SP multiplatform game will bought on the WiiU for me personally..
post #4562 of 7006
more pics from another source on PS4 controller...
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/15/another-shot-of-the-ps4-prototype-controller
post #4563 of 7006
I don't see the WiiU having the grunt on the graphics or processing side to provide anything significantly different than what I can get on my 360. First party titles aside.

I don't buy a lot of used games, so for me its unfortunate but not a deal breaker. I'm a fairly low volume / year gamer. That's what happens when you're a gamer but a husband/father. The time is just not there.
post #4564 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

i can tell you this, that if wiiU is the only one that has "used games" every SP multiplatform game will bought on the WiiU for me personally..

well, Nintendo can definitely use your help. they only sold 40-60K Wii U systems in January. lower than any 360 or PS3 month ever in their lifespans.
post #4565 of 7006
Bandwidth caps? What a scary proposition. Boy am I happy I am not in the US. Although that is unlikely to survive for long as competition grows.

Back to enjoying my unlimited 1000/100 fiber link. smile.gif

Sent from my Xperia Arc S using Tapatalk 2
post #4566 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Bandwidth caps? What a scary proposition. Boy am I happy I am not in the US. Although that is unlikely to survive for long as competition grows.

Back to enjoying my unlimited 1000/100 fiber link. smile.gif

Sent from my Xperia Arc S using Tapatalk 2

It's not that way throughout all of the US. I have reasonably priced 60/10 cable with no cap.
post #4567 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

This is a prime example of a dog (console makers) eating its way to its own a.s.s.hole...if any of this negative press materializes. When the Gamestops and BestBuys of the world die. So does a big slice of the game industry itself. Does anyone really think WalMart, Target, Costco, BJ's Wholesale will take the lead on New game technology introductions? I'll answer that question. NO!...No...no! That's not what they do. They are second tiier high volume channels. They want manufacturers to create the demand. And they will lowball the prices and move the goods after demand has been established. MS and Sony have obviously accelerated the level of leaks...winks and nods in the media, to guage the level of hostility to these divisive strategies. IMO they better do some real hard core market research with their XBox 360 and PS3 user bases before heading too far down the raod to the dark side. All they have to do is take a poll from us on XBL and PSN and they will have the answers to whether NextGen will be boom or bust. Heck...they can even throw a lot of bogus stuff in the on-line survey to throw us off and disrupt competition. But they seriously need to ask their current install base whether they will upgrade and when before doing any of this stuff. MS and Sony could be sitting just where Nintendo is right now...at the end of 2014. Staring at a bunch of unsold inventory at retail...Accelerating demand for itheir discontinued/deemphasized models...and consumers looking elsewhere for better options.

Didn't think I'd say this. But...if MS/Sony speculation holds true to form...Nintendo could win the next round too. Heckyl and Jeckyl just might chase a lot of folks over to WiiU.

I'd say a case can be made for a resurgence of PC gaming, if all this holds true.
post #4568 of 7006
Not much here we haven't already talked about. Except for "multi-Tasking" perhaps. But it will be very interesting next week to see whether this stuff is lemon or lemonade. How both companies deploy the assets against gaming in the way I want it will make or break it for me. I won't just buy a name or franchise for the sake of it, next time around.

http://gamingbolt.com/durango-vs-orbis-head-to-head-analysis-of-the-pros-and-cons

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20130212235450_Microsoft_Xbox_Next_Multi_Task_OS_Multi_Core_x86_and_Large_Hard_Drive.html

"The gaming industry is literally at an all time high with insane amounts of anticipation as well as suspicion as to what the next generation consoles will bring about. With only a few days to go before Sony reveals the PlayStation 4 to the entire world, we thought it will be interesting to see where the two next generation consoles i.e. Orbis and Durango stand head to head.
In this analysis we take a deep look in to the rumored specifications of both the consoles and decide what it will eventually mean for game developers and most importantly, for the gamers themselves.
Let us first take a look at the rumored specs of Orbis and Durango."

Orbis Specifications
8 core CPU: 1.6 GHz AMD Jaguar
18 core GPU, design based on AMD’s Radeon HD 7000 Series
4GB of GDDR5 RAM
3.5 GB data to be available to games
50 GB Blu Ray Disc, X6 Speed

Durango Specifications
8 core CPU: 1.6 GHz AMD Jaguar
12 core GPU, design based on AMD’s Radeon HD 7000 Series
8GB of DDR3 RAM
6.5 GB data to be available to games
50 GB Blu Ray Disc, X6 Speed

CPU:

Both, the Orbis and Durango are rumored to run on an 8 core CPU at 1.6 Ghz. They will be grouped in to two clusters. In majority of the cases processor speed is all that matters. In extremely rare cases, the game’s performance will be dependent on the on-board cache. The Orbis is rumored to be shipping with a shared 512MB L2 cache and on the other hand the Durango will have 4MB L2 cache. Now on paper, Orbis seems to have the upper hand, but according to us cache memory does not matter since data is mostly processed by the CPU on the fly.

Floating Point Operations Per Second:

For this you need to understand the meaning behind FLOPS. Floating Point Operations Per Second basically means: “a method of encoding real numbers within the limits of finite precision available on computers.” Or in another words, the ease with which computers can calculate a large range of numbers quickly. So basically the more FLOPS your computer can perform, the more quickly it can process data.
Orbis is capable of doing 1.843 TeraFLOPS in the GPU department whereas the Durango can do 1.23. So all your game related operations like pixel drawing and other complex calculations will be faster on the Orbis. But since we are dealing with Tflops, people using both the Durango and Orbis will see next to no difference.

GPU and RAM:

The GPU of the Orbis is based on AMD’s “R10XX” (Southern Islands) architecture and has a DirectX 11.1 feature set. Most games will still be made on OpenGL, but the feature set is good to have which suggests that the Liverpool GPU is an enhanced version of the architecture. It also contains 18 Compute Units. The main clock runs at 800mhz and it is capable of 1.843 Tflops.
The Durango GPU, meanwhile, is said to be a slower than the Orbis with a total output of 1.23 Tflops. This isn’t a bad thing however, since we don’t have proper documentation for it. The GPU’s main memory runs at 800mhz, just like the one in the Orbis, and features 12 shader cores providing a total of 768 threads.

Orbis’ RAM is said to be GDDR5, which is a RAM with a higher bandwidth speed, and also quite expensive. It’s a miracle Sony have gone with such an exotic configuration as they feel they didn’t do enough justice to the PS3, where many developers complained about the less amount of RAM. The system has given 500MB to the OS, which leaves us with a decent amount of memory, which can last an entire generation without causing bottlenecks.

The Durango is said to have 8GB DDR3 RAM, which you can normally find in desktop PCs, however, the thing with Durango is that it also has a 32MB eSRAM to complement it. The eSRAM provides very high bandwidth and also takes a lot of space on the die, but it sort of nullifies the slower DDR3 memory the system has.

However, considering the Orbis has a non-split memory structure and a RAM that will not need a lot of optimization from developers, we could see games running better on the system until developers can learn how to take advantage of the Durango RAM structure properly.
We can say that both the systems have an advantage and can result in great games if they are developed with each system’s strengths in mind.

Applications:

Microsoft are clearly going to provide a more application based product with the Durango. Out of the 8GB they are allocating 1.5 GB to the OS. So one can expect more social applications on the Durango during it’s life time, something which we have already seen on the Xbox 360. Expect a lot of Kinect 2 support too.

Sony on the other hand will be allocating 0.5 GB to the OS, which should run a decent number of applications. I am sure Gaikai will be one of the applications that will be shipped along with the PS4.
What It Means For The Game Developers And Gamers:

On paper, the Orbis clearly has a better hardware with a better graphic card and a powerful RAM. But will developers use them to the fullest? That remains to be seen. Judging by the current generation and the advent of multiplatform games, very few developers will be using the full resources of the Orbis.

With development costs going high and next gen consoles following a PC like development module, expect the current trend to continue on the Orbis with better first party and multiplatform games that will perform similar to the Durango.
One thing’s for sure, Orbis unlike the PlayStation 3 should not be getting any flak from the developers regarding it’s architecture.
Both the Orbis and Durango will have something unique to offer. The Durango will be offering a totally new set of social media features, coupled with Kinect functionality. Whereas, Sony will pushing cloud based gaming with Gaikai.

Conclusion:

Sony are indeed putting their best foot forward. But does a powerful hardware mean better games?
Games is where it all matters. Right now there are more questions that answers. Hopefully we will get them answered in the coming days and weeks.
Stay tuned for more news and updates.
Edited by barrelbelly - 2/15/13 at 11:01am
post #4569 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by politby View Post

Bandwidth caps? What a scary proposition. Boy am I happy I am not in the US. Although that is unlikely to survive for long as competition grows.

Back to enjoying my unlimited 1000/100 fiber link. smile.gif

Sent from my Xperia Arc S using Tapatalk 2

You Suck smile.gif
post #4570 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

well, Nintendo can definitely use your help. they only sold 40-60K Wii U systems in January. lower than any 360 or PS3 month ever in their lifespans.

Still yet to be seen, but I had a feeling the Wii U was going to crash and burn. They went the gamecube route, while murdering their controller into a tablet, and forgot to tell everyone it was new and the next best thing.

Wii was a fad, and tapped into the "Xmas time must have toy" demand. People barely knew what it was, what it really did, or even how to use it; but they knew they (and everyone else) wanted one. Beannie babies, power rangers, Furby, then Wii two years running. Nintendo was taking a huge gameble trying to find that must have Xmas toy market for a third time. Ask the toy manufactures how well hitting it outside of pure luck is.
post #4571 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by jblank74 View Post

Stores like Gamestop actually don't make much money off of new titles, it is the used titles where their margins are in some cases around 50%. It is a moot point though, Gamestop is gonna sell the physical media for both Microsoft and Sony's next console, used games allowed or not.

Maybe, maybe not. They'd both have to sign on to no used game for that to be 100% true, otherwise there's a good possibility of them dumping the transgressor completely. And why not? If someone picks sides against them, they'll push the other to be the winner and just make up sales from making them the winner. It's why it suicide to kill used games on your system alone, and why both Sony, MS and N would need to agree on something for these long time rumors (since SNES days) to come true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus View Post

Retailers like Best Buy and Gamestop don't make much on selling a console. The money comes from selling the games. However, it is not a big margin and, in gamestop's case, their main profit comes from used games. If xbox did not play used games but PS4 did, there would not be much of a reason for Gamestop to clog up shelf space with nextbox stuff. It would be very tempting for them to go all PS4 and Wii U.

Exactly. Take a look at Nintendo's section and placement next time you're in a store. It's bigger, and usually right near the door. There's a reason for that.

Nintendo makes sure their retail partners get a healthy margin on everything; consoles, accessories, and games. They keep them happy, and they get the best placement and promotion. Any change in used games is also going to be accompanied by a different sales model than Sony / MS current uses to sweeten the lemon juice they're throwing. They're not going to be able to keep the same razor thin margins, get rid of used games, and not have retailers balk.
post #4572 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Still yet to be seen, but I had a feeling the Wii U was going to crash and burn. They went the gamecube route, while murdering their controller into a tablet, and forgot to tell everyone it was new and the next best thing.

Wii was a fad, and tapped into the "Xmas time must have toy" demand. People barely knew what it was, what it really did, or even how to use it; but they knew they (and everyone else) wanted one. Beannie babies, power rangers, Furby, then Wii two years running. Nintendo was taking a huge gameble trying to find that must have Xmas toy market for a third time. Ask the toy manufactures how well hitting it outside of pure luck is.

agreed, but there is a good amount of people (and i am one of them) that will eventually buy it for mario, zelda, metroid, smash bros, etc.. that is the main thing they have going for them..
post #4573 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Still yet to be seen, but I had a feeling the Wii U was going to crash and burn. They went the gamecube route, while murdering their controller into a tablet, and forgot to tell everyone it was new and the next best thing.

Wii was a fad, and tapped into the "Xmas time must have toy" demand. People barely knew what it was, what it really did, or even how to use it; but they knew they (and everyone else) wanted one. Beannie babies, power rangers, Furby, then Wii two years running. Nintendo was taking a huge gameble trying to find that must have Xmas toy market for a third time. Ask the toy manufactures how well hitting it outside of pure luck is.

They still have the 3DS, which is printing money currently, especially in Japan where it was moving over a million units a week through November and December. Nintendo has that must have item every year with their handhelds, they just haven't found that IP that will constantly move units for their console like Pokemon does for the handhelds, just ones that will sell to a large portion of the install base. (NSMB, Mario Kart, Smash Bros) they sell hardware, but not like Pokemon does.
post #4574 of 7006
post #4575 of 7006
post #4576 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

dude does sony just look at nintendo and copy??
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/15/sony-patents-tablet-controller-called-eyepad

PS1 Analog sticks and Rumble.
PS3 Six Axis and Move
PS4 touch pad

Sony used to take a good idea and make it much better, now they just seem to mash Nintendo's ideas into the Dualshock design.

Move was an improvement, but MS hit on the casual crowd with Kinect making Move less appealing...

Actually, since Kinect took over for the Wii as the must have new toy, will it even get people's attention next gen?
post #4577 of 7006


here's a guy mocking the rumors that the PS4 and next Xbox are anti-used games...
post #4578 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Still yet to be seen, but I had a feeling the Wii U was going to crash and burn. They went the gamecube route, while murdering their controller into a tablet, and forgot to tell everyone it was new and the next best thing.

Wii was a fad, and tapped into the "Xmas time must have toy" demand. People barely knew what it was, what it really did, or even how to use it; but they knew they (and everyone else) wanted one. Beannie babies, power rangers, Furby, then Wii two years running. Nintendo was taking a huge gameble trying to find that must have Xmas toy market for a third time. Ask the toy manufactures how well hitting it outside of pure luck is.

I wouldn't say it has crashed and burn yet. Once Nintendo releases some of their titles this system will get moving. I picked up the WiiU for the kids for Christmas and I have played it and don't think it is all that bad. Yes, it needs some more games, but ZombieU was much better then the reviews were and I've always been a Nintendo's games. Will it be a huge hit, most likely not, but it is doubtful it will disappear. Once nice thing was that having the Wii all my controllers for that were able to transfer over to the WiiU. Sucks that on the next xbox that will not be the case.
post #4579 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

They went the gamecube route
Except the Gamecube was actually a strong piece of tech in its day, and it had some of the strongest multiplatform and first-party games in recent Nintendo history. The Wii U really has no precedent in Nintendo's history.
post #4580 of 7006
Looks like bungie's next game, which looks incredibly ambitious....is online only. But it's a great example of what having an always online game can bring to the table. It just might end up being that so many games rely on this functionality that it ceases to be a sticking point with people, its just how games will be.
post #4581 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Looks like bungie's next game, which looks incredibly ambitious....is online only. But it's a great example of what having an always online game can bring to the table. It just might end up being that so many games rely on this functionality that it ceases to be a sticking point with people, its just how games will be.

This is something that I would play going into it knowing that it was an online game. Not sure every game could afford to do this without a subscription. I can definitely see COD trying to do something similar. This sounds like Bungie is going to try and step in and deliver on the initial promise of mass effect.
post #4582 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus View Post

This is something that I would play going into it knowing that it was an online game. Not sure every game could afford to do this without a subscription. I can definitely see COD trying to do something similar. This sounds like Bungie is going to try and step in and deliver on the initial promise of mass effect.

Well, its not really clear what theyre doing - they could still be pulling this off mostly client side. It doesnt sound like an MMO, but doesnt sound like your typical FPS either. It seems mostly instanced, but with background matchmaking. Its not clear if its one game to last ten years, or the first game in a series that will span ten years. Its not clear how theyre charging for it, or what theyre even charging for. Maybe you cant even buy destiny used, its just a client you download, there's no disc at all.

Maybe its all hype, but it does sound like theyre trying something genuinely new, taking it to the next level....and always online seems integral to it. People instantly recoil from changing what they already know they like.....but the real game changers are those things that we didnt know we wanted, until we saw it.
post #4583 of 7006
From all the materials Bungie just released, Destiny sounds like a combination of Demon's Souls and Planetside. A persistent online shooter with a gradually unfolding storyline. My guess is that if they're not going to do subs, they're going to release content packs. Or something that amounts to yearly full-priced sequels.

I highly doubt they'd commit to a "ten-year" experience without having some way of overhauling the tech every few years, too. And at that point, I don't know why they wouldn't just release a traditional series of games in a continuing storyline (just like Halo). We'll have to see what this actually looks like, and whether it's really as revolutionary an approach as they claim, or if it's basically just a regular old yearly (or bi-yearly) release.
post #4584 of 7006
Factor in the fact Activision is involved so there will be plenty of ways to draw money out of us. Activision said there will never be a subscription to this game.

I was really hoping for more info when they set a specific date for a reveal. Bungie has never been one to create excitement/anticipation and keep the gamers wanting more. rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif
post #4585 of 7006
here are the latest rumors...

http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-next-generation-kinect-sensor/

excerpts:

The next generation sensor improves the current sensor in many areas:
  • Improved field of view results in much larger play space.
  • RGB stream is higher quality and higher resolution.
  • Depth stream is much higher resolution and able to resolve much smaller objects.
  • Higher depth stream accuracy enables separating objects in close depth proximity.
  • Higher depth stream accuracy captures depth curvature around edges better.
  • Active infrared (IR) stream permits lighting independent processing and feature recognition.
  • End to end pipeline latency is improved by 33 ms.



With a 70-degree horizontal and 60-degree vertical FOV, and a depth range of 0.8 m (2.6 feet) to 4.0 m, the sensor captures a much expanded area compared to the Xbox 360 Kinect Sensor. At 0.8 m, this area is 1.12 m wide by 0.92 m high; at 4 m the area is 5.6 m wide by 4.6 m high. This much larger play space fits multiple players. 4 players should fit comfortably, and the place can accommodate up to 6.

The form factor for the next generation sensor will be similar to the current sensor, which is a wired unit, separate from the console. However, this sensor will not have a tilt motor. The wider vertical FOV should permit the sensor to be placed and oriented to capture a large enough area in a typical room without adjustment to accommodate the vast majority of users that are in the height range 3.3 ft to 6 ft (1 m to 1.83 m). The sensor is able to detect that range at just 5.2 ft (1.58 m) away.

User studies from the Kinect program coupled with the requirement to gather well-separated depth information suggest that the best position for the sensor will be above the display, looking downward toward the players. This position maximizes the available depth information and minimizes joint occlusion for seated ST scenarios.

Skeleton Tracking

The skeleton tracking system on Durango will be enhanced over the Xbox 360 system with the following new or improved features.

New features:
  • Tracking of players with height of one meter.
  • One mode for both seated and standing players.
  • Detection of hand states, for example, open or closed hands.
  • Detection of extra joints, and rotations for some joints.
Impoved features:
  • Tracking of six, rather than­­­­­­ two, active players.
  • Tracking of occluded joints, for example, an elbow occluded by a hand.
  • Detection of joint positions.
  • Detection of sideways poses.
Identity System
The NUI Identity system on Xbox 360 uses a combination of sensor inputs to recognize players. On Durango, identity will work the same way, except that the active IR stream provides an additional visible light-independent input, which will make identity recognition much more robust.

Durango’s identity system will be continuously running – its allocation is part of the system reservation. For this reason, developers can think of identity as another input stream from the NUI Identity system. This significantly reduced API set makes integrating identity with titles smooth and easy.

System Allocations

On Durango, from the POV of allocations, the NUI architecture is split into two parts.

Core Kinect functionality that is frequently used by titles and the system itself are part of the allocation system, including color, depth, active IR, ST, identity, and speech. Using these features or not costs a game title the same memory, CPU time, and GPU time. These features also provide advantages. For example, the identity system will run across application switches because it is handled by the system, not individual applications, and avoids having to re-engage and sign-in repeatedly.

System Latency
End-to-end system latency for Kinect is measured as the time from light hitting the sensor through to the display outputting an update based on that input. Improvements across the whole system on Durango are expected to remove around 33 ms from the end-to-end time. Kinect’s CPU, GPU and memory usage on Durango are part of the system reservation.

Sensor Data Streams – Color
The sensor can return a full HD resolution (that is, 1920 x 1080) color stream at 30 frames per second, returned in YUY2 format. YUY2 format packs two pixels as four 8-bit components: Y1, U, Y2, V where Y1 and Y2 are individual pixel luminance values, and U and V are shared chrominance values for the two pixels. Quality and resolution are considerably improved over the current generation sensor, especially in low-light situations.

Sensor Data Streams – Depth
The sensor returns a 512 x 424 16-bit depth stream, at 30 frames per second. The bit-depth layout is exactly as the current Kinect Sensor – 13 bits of depth information and a 3-bit segmentation mask. In addition to higher resolution, the depth sensor is more precise. For example, at 3.5 m it can resolve objects two to three times smaller than the current sensor.

Sensor Data Streams – Active IR
As part of the process of producing the depth stream, the sensor uses an active IR stream. This stream is 512 x 424 at 30 frames per second. The active IR stream is stable across variable lighting conditions. For example, shadows, pixel intensities and noise characteristics are the same for a well-lit room the same as for no light in the room. As a result, this stream could be used for feature detection in situations where a color stream would be useless.

Sensor Data Streams – Registration
The depth stream is derived from the active IR stream. That means both IR and depth streams will have precisely the same point of view (POV), pixel for pixel; there is no transformation mechanism to introduce artefacts. The color sensor, however, is not in the same position as the depth or IR sensor. That means the color stream will appear to be from a slightly different POV. A registration mechanism will be provided that transforms the color stream to the view space of the depth and IR stream, or the other way around. Registration inevitably adds some minor artefacts to the stream being transformed.

Sensor Data Streams – Audio
The audio hardware is a four-microphone array, each capturing a raw 48 KHz 24-bit stream. Multi-channel echo cancellation (MEC) is carried out on these streams by the MEC hardware, that is, not by the CPU and not at cost to a title. The title is presented with a noise-reduced 16 KHz 24-bit stream of voice data. The audio output from the console itself is part of the cancellation process.
post #4586 of 7006
Off topic (but related):

PS4 announcement reminder for event this evening @ 6pm. Live blog started at 4pm. Lets see what the "competition" is bringing to the table. This is what I consider our first real peak at the next-gen consoles (sorry Wii-U)

http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/20/engadget-joystiq-live-from-sony-standups/
post #4587 of 7006
Looking forward to this as well.

The #4 is superstition in Japan so I think the numbered PS names are done. It will be the PS "something" instead of PS4.
post #4588 of 7006
black is an ominous, superstitious color as well. didn't stop the Playstation from being black.
post #4589 of 7006
Quote:
Improved field of view results in much larger play space.

Depth stream is much higher resolution and able to resolve much smaller objects.

Those two work against each other. The spacial resolution is only about 25% better than the current Kinect. I also find this thread title ironic considering the last few months.
post #4590 of 7006
The PS4 it is. My prediction was wrong.
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