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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 156  

post #4651 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikazaru View Post

I don't think MS will or needs to upgrade the nextbox's rumored specs (when has the most powerful console ever won the sales race?). People who post on gaming forums might care, but for the average consumer, slightly better performance isn't going to be the deciding factor in console choice (we're not talking Wii U current gen specs here).

MS will likely come in at a lower price point, offer BC and call it a day. Kinect has been a relative success, and has expanded the 360's audience by pulling in the casual gamer -- my guess is that they continue with this strategy by focusing on being a general purpose STB. Move, on the other hand, has been a relative failure (afaik), and Sony seems to be going back to the basics by targeting the core gamer (initially anyways). Though developers and hardcore gamers are happy with the decision, having 8 GB of GDDR5 is going to add significant cost to the PS4 and will allow MS to undercut Sony by a significant margin.

We are not talking about slightly better performance. If MS does not upgrade, we are talking about significant a performance gap. The PS4 GPU has a 50% raw power advantage, the RAM is much faster and the RAM quantity advantage that MS had has been erased. We are talking about a GPU Power advantage stacked on top of a RAM performance advantage. In previous generations, the power advantage was muted because it was so much more difficult to program for the Playstation. However, these systems have the same architecture so even if Durango is the lead platform, the performance will simply scale up for PS4. Easy to implement. The difference will be obvious.
post #4652 of 7006
where can i pre order? biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif
post #4653 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikazaru View Post

I don't think MS will or needs to upgrade the nextbox's rumored specs (when has the most powerful console ever won the sales race?). People who post on gaming forums might care, but for the average consumer, slightly better performance isn't going to be the deciding factor in console choice (we're not talking Wii U current gen specs here).

MS will likely come in at a lower price point, offer BC and call it a day. Kinect has been a relative success, and has expanded the 360's audience by pulling in the casual gamer -- my guess is that they continue with this strategy by focusing on being a general purpose STB. Move, on the other hand, has been a relative failure (afaik), and Sony seems to be going back to the basics by targeting the core gamer (initially anyways). Though developers and hardcore gamers are happy with the decision, having 8 GB of GDDR5 is going to add significant cost to the PS4 and will allow MS to undercut Sony by a significant margin.

It is like beating a dead horse. Despite all the recent history over the last 10 years that the console with the biggest specs not "winning' the same people will continue to jump up and down that it is all that matters.
post #4654 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

So you were wrong and your solution is name calling? Do you want to address your assertion about dev kits and RAM or just babble about IDEs?
Now you are lying. You made a claim that the RAM had to be a last minute change because dev kits have more RAM than the shipping unit. Your evidence was the 8GB in the PS4 dev kit. Yet the 360 dev kits had 512MB for five years before they bumped it up. So you were wrong. They develop the games on PCs. They don't sit around writing code on a dev console. My understanding is they use them for profiling, testing an bug hunting. And yes I understand what an IDE is, I write code for a living, I'm staring at KDevelop now on my Linux machine. Nothing sexy like games though, just engineering stuff.

I call BULL%*#& that you know how to write any code if common sense doesn't make sense to you.
post #4655 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post

why in the world would i pay top dollar for the opportunity to shell out more money to upgrade my console? if i paid top dollar, i'd better as hell be futureproof for a good while.

You missed the point. People that want the very best, do this all of the time with their HTPCs. Many upgrade parts on their HTPCs annually. A console maker could make a top shelf machine that is scalable within their core architecture too. I'm not saying they will do this. Just that they could. Especially when you consider MS is toying with integrated platforms anyway (XBox Durango, Windows 8, WIndows 8 phone, Surface, multi-platform Kinect 2.0 and smartglass), XBL, WInLive. Using your logic...you can just as logically ask, why would you pay top dollar to shell out more money to upgrade your XBox 360 or PS3 to NextGen. Hopefully your answer is to squeeze the very best performance out of every new game. Nothing new in the idea anyway. Nintendo is already in the market with the exact same business model with WiiU and Wii. MS could just take it much farther. Using a car analogy...every car in the lineup better as hell be bullet proof within its specs for a good while. That is not even the issue or opportunity.
post #4656 of 7006
if anyone missed the presser, here's a nice recap:

tongue.gif
post #4657 of 7006
Quite a good recap actually.

Says the guy who ONLY makes GT games, haha.

I was amazed at the point where there were 4 people on the stage, and only one of them spoke, then they all walked off...what...Thanks for just standing there during his speech.
post #4658 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

You missed the point. People that want the very best, do this all of the time with their HTPCs. Many upgrade parts on their HTPCs annually. A console maker could make a top shelf machine that is scalable within their core architecture too. I'm not saying they will do this. Just that they could. Especially when you consider MS is toying with integrated platforms anyway (XBox Durango, Windows 8, WIndows 8 phone, Surface, multi-platform Kinect 2.0 and smartglass), XBL, WInLive. Using your logic...you can just as logically ask, why would you pay top dollar to shell out more money to upgrade your XBox 360 or PS3 to NextGen. Hopefully your answer is to squeeze the very best performance out of every new game. Nothing new in the idea anyway. Nintendo is already in the market with the exact same business model with WiiU and Wii. MS could just take it much farther. Using a car analogy...every car in the lineup better as hell be bullet proof within its specs for a good while. That is not even the issue or opportunity.

then allow me to restructure the question. why in the world would i pay top dollar for the opportunity to shell out more money on a console, when i could just game on PC right now and accomplish the same thing?
post #4659 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

tgable, you really should check your fanboyism at the door. you've never worked with an IDE before, have you? you can't run an operating system and an IDE and have a simulated environment in the same amount of RAM as the final product. the reason the 360 development kit was upgraded was precisely for this reason. before the upgrade, developers had to be very creative with their development process to work around the problems. the first 360 games did not use the full RAM for this very reason. because you don't have enough RAM to can't run the IDE and the debugging tools and the simulated environment. before you go and criticize, you should educate yourself. it doesn't take long to learn some basic programming. you can download a free IDE like Visual Studio and write a basic "Hello, World!" app.

So you're saying what's good for MS isnt good for Sony? No one is questioning the problem it presents, but its already been done before.
post #4660 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monger View Post

Yeah, accoding to this article by digital foundry, some developers didn't even know about the ram upgrade. Doesn't make it any less awesome though.
in the above article is says is regard to upgrading the RAM: (an engineering nightmare unlikely to happen - it can't really add more chips as Sony has done)

My question is, why is it more difficult to add chips for XBOX to do this than Sony?
post #4661 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post

then allow me to restructure the question. why in the world would i pay top dollar for the opportunity to shell out more money on a console, when i could just game on PC right now and accomplish the same thing?

software.. there are hundreds of games you can't play on PC, if you only play CoD and Battlefield, then you are correct, there is no reason at all to buy a console, but not sure what your point is?? i mean it's pretty simple, want to play mario/zelda, buy wii, want to play infamous/uncharted buy PS4, you get the point.. i mean i thought this was a given??
post #4662 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

guy that claimed he had 720 dev. kit raided by police
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/21/next-gen-xbox-leaker-superdae-raided-by-police

So he DID have one! LOL!
post #4663 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by spid View Post

According to Jack Trenton the console is still in development

http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/21/4013492/sony-ceo-jack-tretton-says-ps4-final-specs-design-still-in-development

Didn't see this earlier. So if this is the case this questions the release date and cost especially if they are trying region or world wide launch. Tretton hopes it doesn't cost 599.99.

From Engadget

Sony America head 'hopes' PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch, says specs aren't finalized yet

Despite showing a variety of games running on the newly announced PlayStation 4, Sony PlayStation's US head Jack Tretton says the console's "still in development in terms of final specs and design." He told All Things D as much in an interview this morning; the PlayStation 4's specs were detailed in a press release by Sony last evening, which detail the internals as an 8-core 64-bit x86 "Jaguar" CPU built by AMD, a Radeon GPU comprised of 18 "compute units" which push out 1.84 TFLOPS, and 8GB of GDDR5 RAM.

Tretton also said he "hopes" that the PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch (the PlayStation 3 launched in two models, at $499 and $599). "When I think about the console, you open it up, you look at it, you certainly look at it when you insert a disc, but for most people, it's behind a cabinet or on a shelf somewhere and you spend all your time looking at the screen," Tretton said.
post #4664 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufcraig21 View Post

in the above article is says is regard to upgrading the RAM: (an engineering nightmare unlikely to happen - it can't really add more chips as Sony has done)

My question is, why is it more difficult to add chips for XBOX to do this than Sony?

It's an ambiguous statement he made - they could probably add memory chips just as Sony did, but adding graphics chips, not so much. Ive noticed Eurogamer does this kind of thing all the time - they cram two ideas in one sentence, and what they really meant to say gets lost.
post #4665 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

So you're saying what's good for MS isnt good for Sony? No one is questioning the problem it presents, but its already been done before.

not at all. that's what happens during the development of a console. Microsoft did the same thing. The 360 had every intention of being a 256MB console. Then Epic showed them a demo of what Gears of War would look like if the console was 256 MB and then what it would look like with 512 MB. and the rest was history.

decisions are made with respect to your developers, your target audience, your competition, and your needs as a business. If the next Xbox was a 4 GB console, you can bet the PS4 would pocket the savings and be a 4 GB console. that's the joy of competition and it's a good thing.
post #4666 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

software.. there are hundreds of games you can't play on PC, if you only play CoD and Battlefield, then you are correct, there is no reason at all to buy a console, but not sure what your point is?? i mean it's pretty simple, want to play mario/zelda, buy wii, want to play infamous/uncharted buy PS4, you get the point.. i mean i thought this was a given??

there's a flipside to this as well. you can buy plenty of games for the PC that you can't for a console.
post #4667 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

there's a flipside to this as well. you can buy plenty of games for the PC that you can't for a console.

right, that is my whole point, you buy whatever "system" you want for the software you want to play.. not sure why it is being debated/discussed..
post #4668 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mboojigga View Post

Didn't see this earlier. So if this is the case this questions the release date and cost especially if they are trying region or world wide launch. Tretton hopes it doesn't cost 599.99.

From Engadget

Sony America head 'hopes' PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch, says specs aren't finalized yet

Despite showing a variety of games running on the newly announced PlayStation 4, Sony PlayStation's US head Jack Tretton says the console's "still in development in terms of final specs and design." He told All Things D as much in an interview this morning; the PlayStation 4's specs were detailed in a press release by Sony last evening, which detail the internals as an 8-core 64-bit x86 "Jaguar" CPU built by AMD, a Radeon GPU comprised of 18 "compute units" which push out 1.84 TFLOPS, and 8GB of GDDR5 RAM.

Tretton also said he "hopes" that the PlayStation 4 won't cost $599 at launch (the PlayStation 3 launched in two models, at $499 and $599). "When I think about the console, you open it up, you look at it, you certainly look at it when you insert a disc, but for most people, it's behind a cabinet or on a shelf somewhere and you spend all your time looking at the screen," Tretton said.

I think in context he's saying they don't have a manufactured box to show yet, "style and spec". Between what they said last night, today, and in their PR release the hardware is spec'd pretty concretely. Going back would on it would risk serious blow back, so it is what it is.

Here's the context:
Quote:
Why didn’t we see the new console today?

I guess when I think about the console, you open it up, you look at it, you certainly look at it when you insert a disc, but for most people, it’s behind a cabinet or on a shelf somewhere and you spend all your time looking at the screen. And we wanted to show people the screen. There will be multiple opportunities to share the look of the console between now and the launch. We just didn’t choose this first event as the time to show it.

But is it ready?

I mean, we’re certainly capable of showing playable game content, but we don’t have a mass-production box that we can bring out and pull out. That’s still in development in terms of final specs and design.

Edited by TyrantII - 2/21/13 at 5:17pm
post #4669 of 7006
post #4670 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by whityfrd View Post

then allow me to restructure the question. why in the world would i pay top dollar for the opportunity to shell out more money on a console, when i could just game on PC right now and accomplish the same thing?

Exclusive Games...lower cost...less complicated. You do understand that the exact same question could be asked in reverse...right? Such as spending$700- $800 once versus $1500-$2000, 2-3 times over 7 to 10 years?

Lookit...All I'm saying is that MS could upstage by launching a real elite model of Durango. Not a cheesy cosmetic "Elite" like they did with the XBox 360. Yet they still sold a boatload of the higher priced XBox 360 Elites. If they really did an Uber version with real enhanced specs... I for one would be more likely to buy it than a watered down version shooting for the optimum low price point. That's why some people buy Mercedes and others Fiats.
Edited by barrelbelly - 2/21/13 at 6:28pm
post #4671 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

PS4 will NOT have always on internet
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/ps4-doesnt-require-an-always-on-internet-connection/

Great to hear this. I hope MS follows the lead. I for one do not want even my friends & family list to have too much free access to my system via the games I play or apps I use. Because if their systems get hacked...the same hacker can back door into all of my personal information. Just way too risky IMO.
post #4672 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Because if their systems get hacked...the same hacker can back door into all of my personal information.
Just...lol.
post #4673 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

And I don't see how they can change the specs this late in the cycle. They know they can't delay the console, so that won't happen.

If this were a Sony rep saying this I'd say officially the jinx is in. You just put the whammy on the PS4.
post #4674 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

PS4 will NOT have always on internet
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/02/21/ps4-doesnt-require-an-always-on-internet-connection/

PS4 sounds better with every drop of info that comes out. I Hope MS is listening. Sony has pretty much gone with my entire wishlist for their next machine.

Plays used games...Check
No Always Online/ does not require internet connection to function...Check
Powerful Hardware with Massive Memory...Check

MS, the ball is in your court. There are a lot of additional features and drawbacks that could make either system more or less attractive, but Sony has nailed the big three. If MS can nail the big three, I'm with them, if not, I guess I may buy a 720 down the road to serve as my "gears of war box".
post #4675 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antiochus View Post

We are not talking about slightly better performance. If MS does not upgrade, we are talking about significant a performance gap. The PS4 GPU has a 50% raw power advantage, the RAM is much faster and the RAM quantity advantage that MS had has been erased. We are talking about a GPU Power advantage stacked on top of a RAM performance advantage. In previous generations, the power advantage was muted because it was so much more difficult to program for the Playstation. However, these systems have the same architecture so even if Durango is the lead platform, the performance will simply scale up for PS4. Easy to implement. The difference will be obvious.
While I'd agree in theory..............in practice might be entirely different. While it may be a large difference on paper what will it mean in reality? Like this generation - many cross platform games are reported to be better on the xbox and while I can seem some slight differences do they matter? No, not really. Maybe to the .01% who post here - general market? Nah, don't care.

If both can do say 1080/60 what difference does the hardware advantage give? Nothing, it will come down to software, the total package - what else can it do well?

My guess it will be the same as every other generation. Price & software will rule the day. The PS3 didn't sell jack early - why? Too expensive. Software - games like Halo & GOW moved consoles................with fewer & fewer exclusives this is less of an issue = price will be a larger factor. Here's where MS has the advantage as Sony can't afford to subsidize a console, break even is the best they can offer.............and with higher priced hardware like DDR5? My guess is $450 = another stillborn Sony product, too expensive to sell in any numbers unless it performs some amazing other functions (& the light OS seems to point in a different direction).

It may well come down to MS offers a box that integrates well with everything else you own where Sony offers a gaming platform.....................................no need to be a genius to see where that will go.

As always it'll be fun to watch.
post #4676 of 7006
killzone demo on fallon... but great look at controller at the beginning..
post #4677 of 7006
I was listening to a Xbox podcast this morning on my way to work, and they brought up a good point. MS is going to bank on the fact that the core Xbox guys, the ones that play a lot of COD with their friends, just won't care about what the other system is doing because all their friends will just move to the next Xbox. They will come out and most likely show off Kinect and some apps, show the specs, and maybe a few games but they won't shy away from what is "working" for them.
post #4678 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by americangunner View Post

I was listening to a Xbox podcast this morning on my way to work, and they brought up a good point. MS is going to bank on the fact that the core Xbox guys, the ones that play a lot of COD with their friends, just won't care about what the other system is doing because all their friends will just move to the next Xbox. They will come out and most likely show off Kinect and some apps, show the specs, and maybe a few games but they won't shy away from what is "working" for them.

There will be some inertia - but if they don't show something impressive, they won't grow, and people will leave eventually. All my local friends and me are tied to XBL, but a few of us have already decided on Sony, based on what we're seeing. People are going to have an unprecedented choice this holiday between two similar systems - without BC, there's nothing tying you to your old ecosystem. If the early adopters choose Sony because it makes a better case to the early adopter mindset....they're going to drag a *lot* of people with them.

The PS2 CRUSHED the Xbox in sales in the US. Sony banked on that....didnt work out for them, did it?
post #4679 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by benjamin-benjami View Post

killzone demo on fallon... but great look at controller at the beginning..
]
I liked what I saw, but I would feel better seeing that running on the PS4 and not something in the back.
post #4680 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arutha_conDoin View Post

I liked what I saw, but I would feel better seeing that running on the PS4 and not something in the back.

Back in 2005, all the 360 demos I played at e3 were still running on prototypes....in June. And the games ran like dog ****, like 15fps. The PS4 doesn't exist yet. If anything, it'll look even better at release.
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