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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 172  

post #5131 of 7006
The latest

http://pastebin.com/avbwJc17

So yes, I originally made a post on pastebin that I then posted on IGN that has now mysteriously vanished from the internet. I'm guessing good 'ol Don wasn't too happy.

In that pastebin post I said I wouldn't be saying anything else, but that was before a few things changed. So yeah.... #dealwithit.

That IGN post (that referenced the pastebin post) was also posted on NeoGAF. Though it didn't get much attention.

In that pastebin post I specifically mentioned that I was a GAF member, but that I would not be outing myself on GAF for fear of losing my job. And I still will not be doing that. I'm not an idiot.
However since the reveal is pretty close now, I thought I'd just come out and tell you everything I know. No more cryptic ********, just facts.

First of all, for any of the GAF members reading this (or anyone else for that matter) that actually believed the online-required rumor, well.... you're either stupid, very gullible, or a fanboy. Reading the posts some of you made over the past few weeks leads me to believe that mostly fanboyism was involved. So, I'll make this very clear:

You are not required to be connected to the internet in order to play Durango games and MS were NEVER considering doing such a thing. Now please, just read that last sentence over and over again until it sinks in. Done? Good.


Now that I've got that out of the way I can talk about the real details.
First, I'll admit some things that I originally hinted at in the first pastebin are now not going to happen. Mainly the April 18th date (obviously) and the HMD glasses. The date, as you may know by now was pushed back to May, and the glasses, well, although they’re kind of working are going to spend a bit longer in the oven.

Ok, moving on. Have you read the VGLeaks article about the Durango specs? Yes? Good because everything you read in that article was 100% correct. Except, for one tiny little detail that MS kept guarded from most devs until very recently. That detail being that every Durango ships with a Xbox 360 SOC.

There was a reason why MS hired so many former IBM and AMD employees. I'll admit I'm not an electrical engineer (I'm in software) so I won't pretend to know the ins and outs of how the 360 SOC integrates into the Durango motherboard. All I know, and all I need to know about this new change is that I (or a game dev) can use the 360 SOC in parallel with the original Durango hardware.

What does this mean in basic terms? Well, apart from Durango having 100% BC with the 360, it also increases Durango's processing power a fair amount.

Ok, so what else?

Kinect 2.0: - Again the specs from VGLeaks are correct, there's been no change and there won't be. However, the fact is, is that software can do ANYTHING, and with the quite substantial increase in the hardware over Kinect 1.0, any humanly noticeable lag should be gone

Controller: - The controller is pretty much the same. The D-Pad has been improved, but the change will only be noticeable when actually using it, i.e. it looks exactly the same, I haven't actually touched it, this is just what I’ve been told. AA batteries will make a return, but the new wireless tech MS has created for the controller, improves battery life by 16%. Again, this is just what the doc says.

Xbox Mini/Xbox TV: Yes, this is happening, although as far as I know, it’s a whole different team over at MS that are handling this. As has been reported its main purpose is to compete with Apple TV, so expect this thing to be small and around $100.
It contains the 360 SOC (similar to the one in the Durango), however no disc drive is included (to decrease size). But of course you can still play any XBLA/Games on Demand game. That’s all I really know about the xTV so I’ll leave it at that. Thurrott seems to know more than anyone else about this, so go ask him.

OS/Services: I wish I knew more about this, but I honestly don’t. I have no clue what sort of new ideas MS are going to bring to the table this gen, but I’m certainly expecting them to amaze.
The only thing that I do know for definite is that Durango will be running Windows 8. It will essentially be the full version of the OS, minus the desktop side of things. This means it’ll be running the new WinRT framework, which as a side effect also means that contrary to popular belief MS will be the most indie friendly of all the big 3 next gen.
This is because any app/game that is created for the Windows app store will (after adding controller support of course) be playable on Durango.
In other words, any random person worldwide can pay Microsoft a $60 license fee (for the Windows Store) and submit their app/game to the store where millions of people can then download/buy it. No expensive development kits needed.
Expect to hear much more on WinRT - Durango at Build2013.

Ok, so that’s pretty much it. I wish I had more info on specific games and services that MS have lined up, but it seems that even I’ll have to wait until May to find out.
I’ll look forward to this post appearing on GAF, where rest assured I’ll be lurking. Hell, who knows I may even make a few posts.

I wonder how many people will refuse to believe this? Hmmmm….
post #5132 of 7006
If this is all true, then MS would turn some heads. Full BC would be a big score for day one buyers, and it could be something they remove later on to drop the price. But if there is BC, then what is the point of the Xbox Mini? The VGleaks article said that it would plug in to the Durango so that you could play current gen games. I am skeptical, but I really hope you're right on all these.

I always thought that MS would do something to make indie developers happy, and just thought that you only heard the negative because they couldn't comment on the upcoming system with most likely positive changes coming. Like I've said several times before, I just wish May 21st would hurry up and get here.
post #5133 of 7006
I find the VGLeaks more inline with the rumors than the pastebin. For one thing, it would reduce the cost of the devices to separate the two. And by separating the costs, not only does it reduce it for Microsoft, but it would add additional revenue. Because by having Microsoft basically include the 360 inside the Durango, consumers will expect Microsoft to eat the costs. Consumers will not go, "well, it has an Xbox 360 inside. that's worth $100 extra!").

and I find it a little hard to believe that Windows 8 will be managing two different architectures. sure, Microsoft has a great deal of experience in the field of virtualization but even this seems really ambitious.

I would love to be wrong and for this to be true. not saying that the pastebin post has any less validity. these are all just rumors after all. but without a track record, it adds an additional level of skepticism. at least VGLeaks and superdae are the primary sources of the previous rumors. they're the "inside sources" that all the blogs use.

but the post does bring up a facet that I was wondering about... right now, the most "indie" of all the platforms is XBLIG. it's even more indie than iOS, Android, Sony, or even Steam (which still forces a lot of companies to beg to get greenlit). anyone can publish on XBLIG and it's completely moderated by the community, not Microsoft. that's as indie as you can get. XBLIG is where many of today's top indie developers learned how to program games. making money through XBLIG is hard because it has a bad rep of having a lot of bad games (to be expected since a lot of programmers start out here) and because Microsoft does no advertising for it.

but unfortunately, XBLIG is being phased out in the next gen. which left a lot of developers scratching their heads. but if development is simply being moved to using WinRT infrastructure, then it all makes sense.

either way, the rumors from both sources are close enough that either is plausible and exciting. good times ahead.
post #5134 of 7006
First off...what is the source of this? Just some random guy who claims to have insider info?

There's a ton here thats really stretching it...

I dont doubt that durango will ship with the 360 SoC. I dont even doubt that they'd hide it from devs. I find it *incredibly* difficult to believe that devs will be able to use the 360 SoC in tandem to squeeze a little more performance out. In that case, theyre never going to be able to remove it to cut costs. It's not an impossible idea, but its kind of a crazy one. The 360 SoC is redundant - there's nothing it can do that the main SoC cant do faster. Getting them to work together would create bottlenecks that would completely wipe out the 20% max theoretical gain. Its not going to be useful for physics (the CPU isnt powerful enough, the GPU doesnt support compute). Its not going to be compatible with the DX11 shaders. Its got a completely different architecture and instruction set. Its believable that they include it for BC and to use it for background processing, but not for next gen games.

As far as the OS goes - as far as I know, WinRT is ARM only. They can create a stripped down x86 Windows 8 that resembles RT, but it wont be WinRT. A software dev should understand this distinction and not make such an uninformed statement. Metro apps can support both x86 and ARM, so the cross compatibility is still believable. I still expect to see some sort of cross compatibility between Win 8 and Durango. But this is far from an indie dream.....this is an indie nightmare. They already have problems with discoverability for XBLA games as it is, this will just open the floodgates to every amateur to be on equal standing with the "real" indie developers. At best Metro games end up in their own ghetto like XBLIG, at worst the result will be a race to the bottom like we see on iOS. It would not only make life difficult for indies, but for the AAA guys as well. Sony is absolutely right to maintain some barrier to entry. I dont doubt MS sees some of that Apple money and wants a piece, but its such a dreadful platform for anyone who wants to make a real game.
post #5135 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post


As far as the OS goes - as far as I know, WinRT is ARM only. They can create a stripped down x86 Windows 8 that resembles RT, but it wont be WinRT.

you're confusing WinRT with Windows RT. it's easy to make the confusion because Microsoft does a poor job of marketing. WinRT is the framework that underlies all Modern/Metro apps in Windows 8 and Windows RT.

http://arstechnica.com/features/2012/10/windows-8-and-winrt-everything-old-is-new-again/

post #5136 of 7006
*slaps head*

Yeah, real tough to see how I got confused there.

So then, a stripped down version of Win 8 that runs apps built on WinRT, but not "Windows RT" itself.

I still kind of think this one OS to rule them all idea is a bit misguided....but we'll see. It's certainly a very Microsoft thing to do.
post #5137 of 7006
because no one cares what's underneath the hood. they just want the car to run well. people pretend to care but only at the superficial level.

do you care whether your program was WinRT or Win16 or COM or .NET? of course not. I could give a list of programs ranging from Microsoft Office down to Minesweeper and you would probably fail at identifying whether it was COM or WinRT or Win32 or whatever.

they shouldn't have called Windows RT "Windows". at least in the near term. because in the near term, a Windows RT device cannot run old Windows software. but in the far term, the Windows RT does make sense if what they envision comes true. right now, the IDEs can easily compile for both Windows RT and Windows 8. so a person makes software for one platform and can easily make a version for the other platform with some simple tweaks. so you can grow both ecosystems at the same time. so in the long term, Windows RT is very much Windows because it can run almost all the NEW software designed for Windows 8. it all depends on how long you go with the unknown before you get cold feet and whether OEMs will buy in.

you make a game for the next-gen XBLIG. now you have a game for 4 platforms (Windows 8, Windows RT, Windows Phone 8, and Xbox).

now it makes sense why more developers are interested in developing for the next-gen Xbox than the PS4 (according to the survey from GDC).
post #5138 of 7006
No one cares what it runs, but users will care about the sub par results you'll get with such a high level API, and the lack of focus when it comes to UI and control. It's the problem that's plagued windows 8 from the start - Metro is a joke on a desktop. I don't buy the "no compromises" motto - there are very real compromises, and they're potentially bringing them to the nextbox. Sony is laser focused on gaming, but MS is in real danger of diluting the nextbox with their approach, to the point where its the best product for nobody.
post #5139 of 7006
I really do you need to be more careful with your terms or at least how you're interpreting them. WinRT is not "such a high level API".



most console games nowadays are programmed in C++. this isn't the Atari or NES days where programmers programmed in assembly and machine language. Even Carmack uses C++.
post #5140 of 7006
Most people don't care how things are made; however, they do care that they can start their game on the Xbox, swap to mobile, then finish off on they're computer. So having software tools to converge all of it together makes everyone happy. APIs and code are important to some of us on the back end to understand how things work though. I for one am very excited about Metro and what it means down the road.
post #5141 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

I really do you need to be more careful with your terms or at least how you're interpreting them. WinRT is not "such a high level API".



most console games nowadays are programmed in C++. this isn't the Atari or NES days where programmers programmed in assembly and machine language. Even Carmack uses C++.

Call it what you want, I have a very difficult time believing that efficient code is going to come out of a single program compiled for an ARM/PowerVR SoC in a smartphone, a 8 Core/12 CU APU in a console, and a quad core x86 desktop CPU/discrete GPU. Most of this stuff is probably going to be the barrel scraping shovelware you usually get on mobile app stores, that doesnt push the hardware anyway, so I guess it doesnt really matter. But I dont really see much of anything interesting coming out of it. Windows Phone 8 is irrelevant, Windows 8 Metro/Tablet possibly even less relevant....any games designed with those dead end platforms in mind can only drag down the real console/PC versions. WinRT isnt going to do squat to get games running on the mobile platforms 95% of people use.
post #5142 of 7006
Thread Starter 
Man, I think it might be game over already if MS has full hardware BC. That is a HUGE subliminal factor that people won't consciously be aware of, but it will influence their decision's quite a bit. If you're making a choice between Infinity and PS4, and you have a large library of 360 stuff, knowing that you have a "legit" BC option, while the opponents is a pie in the sky option, that's pretty huge for those that are most likely going to make a choice between the two, and stick with that choice for the foreseeable future. The other huge part of that, is that if you're cash strapped, you can sell your current 360 to try to get a wee bit of cache to throw at the new one. PS3 owners can't sell their PS3's to help finance the PS4. Maybe if you live in Kansas City in that special google neighborhood GaiKai will be the bee's knees, but in the real world...


Great strategy by Microsoft to keep this fact hidden for so long. They had the competition thinking they wouldn't try for BC either. But all along they knew that would be a HUGE differential in the head-to-head marketing war this holiday. I wonder how much cost this is adding to each Infinity ? It might not really matter if MS is also coming thru with some type of special cable TV plans coming via subscription.

This will be a very interesting battle at the cash registers this November.
post #5143 of 7006
The 360 SOC is already pretty cheap, and another die shrink should happen this year, reducing costs further. Everything Sony wanted to do with the PS3 chipset, but couldn't thanks to Nvidia, Microsoft has done, which makes it cheap enough to include in the Nextbox.

If Sony is the only company lacking proper BC, then they will struggle no matter how good the PS4 is. (and if MS manages MW4 being cross generational, then they will bury Sony this Christmas.)


If this turns out to be true, and Microsoft truly kept full BC a secret and convinced Sony that it wouldn't be, then this may be one of the most brilliant plays in console war history.
post #5144 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Call it what you want, I have a very difficult time believing that efficient code is going to come out of a single program compiled for an ARM/PowerVR SoC in a smartphone, a 8 Core/12 CU APU in a console, and a quad core x86 desktop CPU/discrete GPU. Most of this stuff is probably going to be the barrel scraping shovelware you usually get on mobile app stores, that doesnt push the hardware anyway, so I guess it doesnt really matter. But I dont really see much of anything interesting coming out of it. Windows Phone 8 is irrelevant, Windows 8 Metro/Tablet possibly even less relevant....any games designed with those dead end platforms in mind can only drag down the real console/PC versions. WinRT isnt going to do squat to get games running on the mobile platforms 95% of people use.

you're not understanding the purpose of WinRT in terms of the Xbox or what WinRT really is. in simple terms, WinRT would be more for the XBLA and XBLIG crowd. It wouldn't be for the big commercial retail boxed titles. to entice the developer by providing a platform that lets them quickly develop games across multiple platforms with a fairly easy porting process.

people are messing up the term of "indie developer". an indie developer is not anybody on XBLA or PSN. in fact, a typical budget for an XBLA/PSN title is $300K-$1M+, often with some pretty large teams working on the title. not the kind of money that indie developers can throw around. an indie developer exists outside of publisher control. being independent of publisher control is the essence of an indie developer or game.

you cannot publish on XBLA without an approved publisher. if you don't have a publisher that has been prequalified by Microsoft, you need to sign one up and most of them, for better or worse, end up having to sign up with Microsoft as the publisher under regimented controls.

there is a thriving indie scene on the PC and on iOS and Android. But never on consoles. You cannot release titles on any console without having to pay for expensive dev kits or working with a significant organization with significant resources. The closest to an indie scene on consoles was XBLIG. You pay your $99 or whatever the fee is now, program on a PC with standard free Visual Studio tools, and publish what you want. It's the closest thing to the iOS/Android/PC. the closest thing in the console scene before XBLIG was Net Yaroze for the original Playstation. But even that wasn't a minor investment and still costs several hundreds of dollars. hate XBLIG all you want, but some big-time programmers now first cut their teeth doing XBLIG titles. XBLIG titles didn't make them rich but it got their feet wet with the process of developing a commercial video game.

Microsoft did a lot to suppress the ability of XBLIG to be successful (not allowing use of all system resources, not allowing use of achievements, etc.), but at least they provided an indie outlet.

some great insightful articles about developing games in the indie scene (here's from only a quick 10 second google search):

http://www.examiner.com/article/q-a-interview-with-xblig-developer-ian-stocker

http://indiegamerchick.com/2012/05/10/tales-from-the-dev-side-making-a-multiplayer-xblig-by-james-petruzzi/

and some tales of the dark side of XBLIG:

http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber/2011/10/the-state-of-xblig/


and please... don't overstate the power of the next Xbox and PS4. they're much more powerful than the 360/PS3. but they're still mobile chipsets. the fastest mobile chipsets that'll be released in the same time frame, but still mobile chipsets. Many people's PCs are much better in terms of pure horsepower than what the next-gen consoles will have.
post #5145 of 7006
Integrated backwards compatibility makes much more sense to me than having the option to hook this rumored Xbox TV up to a Xbox 720 in order to accomplish it.

I can't imagine that they think that there's enough demand from people to provide that option in place of a full standalone Xbox 360 when the only benefit it offers is the elimination of a single HDMI connection, one controller, one ethernet connection for those yet to switch to WiFi, a little bit of shelf space, and a second spent on a remote control to switch to a different television input if you have to do it manually and were already using your Xbox 720. Hardly a gain particularly for the large majority of their customers that surely will be existing Xbox 360 owners. You'd be paying at least $100 for minimum gain over what your existing console already offers and you'd have to switch between 360 and 720 discs then if you had two retail games being played during the same period since they'd share the same drive.

I would expect no backwards compatibility if integrated BC doesn't happen. But if integrated backwards compatibility does happen (And I sure hope it does), I wonder if HD-DVD drives will still work. There's no reason why they couldn't that I can see but probably only a fraction of those drives still see regular use today and surely won't be high on their priority list. But for that fraction of the Xbox 360 userbase, I hope they carry that option over if true backwards compatibility happens.

Always sucks to lose an option you use in such a situation. The loss of the Game Boy Player with the Wii's otherwise excellent GameCube compatibility is one recent and notable example. Not uncommon at videogaming forums when the GameCube gets brought up to see lots of people speaking up about how they keep one hooked up to this day because of that.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 4/17/13 at 12:48am
post #5146 of 7006
Hi Anthony1 - I see from other forums that you are knowledgeable about RGB monitors and retro consoles. I wondered if I might pick your brains about the combination of a sony pvm-2530 and an RGB modded NTSC N64? If this isn't the place to do so, is there a place where I could PM you, or could I email you? Many thanks, Andy (UK)
post #5147 of 7006
Anthony is the propaganda minister for RGB modded classic game consoles so you're going to the right person. smile.gif

If it helps, this forum has a private message function. I haven't used it in recent years but I assume that it still works fine.
post #5148 of 7006
I tend to believe the WinRT side of latest rumors because it allows Microsoft to have one uniformed way to handle apps and games. It empowers game developers/publishers to control patches, updates, and the like without current patch system in place for the 360. The XBLIG was easy to forget on Xbox, but if you allow the same freedom to "easily" bring your app to the phone, tablet, PC, and Xbox. I don't think you will see achievements on the "indy" side because you don't see it on the Phone or Windows 8. However, I do think the Phone side of the business has done a good job of selecting popular games and working with the developers to promote those games to full XBL games.

If there is going to be a smaller Xbox TV I am not sure there would much of an incentive for Microsoft to make their next system fully BC. Also if there is going to be a Xbox TV what additional features would they put in it to make people use it instead of using an old Xbox 360 they already have.
Edited by spid - 4/17/13 at 9:15am
post #5149 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlysublime View Post

you're not understanding the purpose of WinRT in terms of the Xbox or what WinRT really is. in simple terms, WinRT would be more for the XBLA and XBLIG crowd. It wouldn't be for the big commercial retail boxed titles. to entice the developer by providing a platform that lets them quickly develop games across multiple platforms with a fairly easy porting process.

people are messing up the term of "indie developer". an indie developer is not anybody on XBLA or PSN. in fact, a typical budget for an XBLA/PSN title is $300K-$1M+, often with some pretty large teams working on the title. not the kind of money that indie developers can throw around. an indie developer exists outside of publisher control. being independent of publisher control is the essence of an indie developer or game.

you cannot publish on XBLA without an approved publisher. if you don't have a publisher that has been prequalified by Microsoft, you need to sign one up and most of them, for better or worse, end up having to sign up with Microsoft as the publisher under regimented controls.

there is a thriving indie scene on the PC and on iOS and Android. But never on consoles. You cannot release titles on any console without having to pay for expensive dev kits or working with a significant organization with significant resources. The closest to an indie scene on consoles was XBLIG. You pay your $99 or whatever the fee is now, program on a PC with standard free Visual Studio tools, and publish what you want. It's the closest thing to the iOS/Android/PC. the closest thing in the console scene before XBLIG was Net Yaroze for the original Playstation. But even that wasn't a minor investment and still costs several hundreds of dollars. hate XBLIG all you want, but some big-time programmers now first cut their teeth doing XBLIG titles. XBLIG titles didn't make them rich but it got their feet wet with the process of developing a commercial video game.

Microsoft did a lot to suppress the ability of XBLIG to be successful (not allowing use of all system resources, not allowing use of achievements, etc.), but at least they provided an indie outlet.

some great insightful articles about developing games in the indie scene (here's from only a quick 10 second google search):

http://www.examiner.com/article/q-a-interview-with-xblig-developer-ian-stocker

http://indiegamerchick.com/2012/05/10/tales-from-the-dev-side-making-a-multiplayer-xblig-by-james-petruzzi/

and some tales of the dark side of XBLIG:

http://www.merseyremakes.co.uk/gibber/2011/10/the-state-of-xblig/


and please... don't overstate the power of the next Xbox and PS4. they're much more powerful than the 360/PS3. but they're still mobile chipsets. the fastest mobile chipsets that'll be released in the same time frame, but still mobile chipsets. Many people's PCs are much better in terms of pure horsepower than what the next-gen consoles will have.

When people hear the term indie, they think braid, bastion, super meat boy, bit trip, etc. Maybe they cut their teeth on XBLIG, but elevating it to "indie", despite the title, is like calling every garage band who's ever uploaded something to MySpace an indie band.

At best we're left with something that resembles XBLIG, just spread across a few other irrelevant platforms. At worst you have the same few games crowding out everything else on the top charts for years and years, and no one is making any money but those few breakout successes. Maybe Microsoft rakes it in on commissions, a few breakout hits get rich, and everyone else loses, including gamers. It all depends on how prominent they make this stuff...I hope not at all.

If they're essentially merging the app stores, it'll be interesting to see how they pull it off. Win 8 and Win Phone 8 are total free-for-alls like iOS. XBLA is tightly controlled. Maybe they'll just remove the restrictions from the console side, and give all devs the option to buy placement on the dash (as they do now). That lets Microsoft double dip on the bigger indies/pubs, without completely squelching the little guy and preventing the occasional gem from bubbling to the top.
Edited by bd2003 - 4/17/13 at 8:54am
post #5150 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by spid View Post

....

If there is going to be a smaller Xbox TV I am not sure there would much of an incentive for Microsoft to make their next system fully BC. Also if there is going to be a Xbox TV what additional features would the put in it to make people use it instead of using an old Xbox 360 they already have.

For me, less noise, energy, and for a media center extender (hopefully).
post #5151 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmalbers View Post



For me, less noise, energy, and for a media center extender (hopefully).

+1
post #5152 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

When people hear the term indie, they think braid, bastion, super meat boy, bit trip, etc. Maybe they cut their teeth on XBLIG, but elevating it to "indie", despite the title, is like calling every garage band who's ever uploaded something to MySpace an indie band.

If they're essentially merging the app stores, it'll be interesting to see how they pull it off. Win 8 and Win Phone 8 are total free-for-alls like iOS. XBLA is tightly controlled. Maybe they'll just remove the restrictions from the console side, and give all devs the option to buy placement on the dash (as they do now). That lets Microsoft double dip on the bigger indies/pubs, without completely squelching the little guy and preventing the occasional gem from bubbling to the top.

XBLA will forever be tightly controlled. It's for the big boys. For the companies that want to release smaller titles that don't fit the traditional retail model. Not for the indie developers.

Wow. If you think a band that uploads something to Myspace is not an "indie band" I don't know what to say. Many bands get their start through social media without ever being tied to a major music studio. many with the hopes that they can sign that major contract with a label.
post #5153 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The 360 SOC is already pretty cheap, and another die shrink should happen this year, reducing costs further. Everything Sony wanted to do with the PS3 chipset, but couldn't thanks to Nvidia, Microsoft has done, which makes it cheap enough to include in the Nextbox.

If Sony is the only company lacking proper BC, then they will struggle no matter how good the PS4 is. (and if MS manages MW4 being cross generational, then they will bury Sony this Christmas.)


If this turns out to be true, and Microsoft truly kept full BC a secret and convinced Sony that it wouldn't be, then this may be one of the most brilliant plays in console war history.

There is no current 360 SOC.
post #5154 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

There is no current 360 SOC.

Would MCM have been a better term to use?
post #5155 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Would MCM have been a better term to use?

Technically more accurate, but MCM doesnt really do it justice. They didnt just plop the CPU onto the same package as the GPU/North Bridge, they integrated it into the same die. But the eDRAM is still a separate chip on that package in the slim....so technically an MCM. And the south bridge, wifi and video processor are still external. But all the important processing is on a single chip, they could probably make it work with the durango south bridge, video processor, etc. SoC might be a little generous to describe the slim....but nothing is stopping them from further integrating in their next revision, that will make it's way into durango and the xbox super slim.
post #5156 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

The 360 SOC is already pretty cheap, and another die shrink should happen this year, reducing costs further. Everything Sony wanted to do with the PS3 chipset, but couldn't thanks to Nvidia, Microsoft has done, which makes it cheap enough to include in the Nextbox.

If Sony is the only company lacking proper BC, then they will struggle no matter how good the PS4 is. (and if MS manages MW4 being cross generational, then they will bury Sony this Christmas.)


If this turns out to be true, and Microsoft truly kept full BC a secret and convinced Sony that it wouldn't be, then this may be one of the most brilliant plays in console war history.

The PS3 had full backwards compatibility and it didn't bury anyone. I think it's just a small vocal minority that cares about BC. Most people buy a new console to play new games. And this rumor sounds like BS anyway.
post #5157 of 7006
The Playstation 3 wasn't at an even footing early on so I don't think we can judge its backwards compatibility as having been unimportant during its first couple of years.

I don't think it's a game changer, but I think backwards compatibility is important and tends to be underestimated just as often. And this upcoming generation won't have to deal with nearly as wide of a gap in technical capabilities and even more importantly won't have to deal with standard definition games being displayed on high definition displays.

So I suspect that the Xbox 360 and Playstation 3, both of which are very successful, will remain relevant longer than the sole console the last time around that lasted any significant amount of time after replacement did. A pretty Xbox 360 game today is still going to be a pretty game in a couple of years so I don't see lots of people turning their backs on it as quickly as they would've in generations gone by.

So the ability to continue to enjoy that software on the 720 is going to be a significant positive I think if it pans out.
Edited by Leo_Ames - 4/18/13 at 2:42am
post #5158 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

Would MCM have been a better term to use?

Why not, now that the fantasy SOC and its fantasy shrink are cleared up we can then weigh the rest of your post (hint fantasy).
post #5159 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgable View Post

Why not, now that the fantasy SOC and its fantasy shrink are cleared up we can then weigh the rest of your post (hint fantasy).

So is MCM also not a proper term for the 360's custom single chip design that has purposeful lag and delays built in to mimic the original launch design as closely as possible? You want to call it a Chimera instead?

And are you are calling an overdue die shrink a fantasy? They have been in the 40nm range for several years now and it is about time they shrunk it even more now that the 28nm process is more mature. (this was Sony's plan for the Super Slim) This would lead to a cheaper price all around. There is nothing fantasy about expecting this to happen.

And what about the rest of my post being a fantasy? It was commenting on the rumor at hand (so yes, a fantasy, but one that could easily happen) If Microsoft worked out a deal to allow 720 players of MW4 to play online with 360 players then that will be a huge factor for 360 owners looking to upgrade.
post #5160 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

So is MCM also not a proper term for the 360's custom single chip design that has purposeful lag and delays built in to mimic the original launch design as closely as possible? You want to call it a Chimera instead?

And are you are calling an overdue die shrink a fantasy? They have been in the 40nm range for several years now and it is about time they shrunk it even more now that the 28nm process is more mature. (this was Sony's plan for the Super Slim) This would lead to a cheaper price all around. There is nothing fantasy about expecting this to happen.

And what about the rest of my post being a fantasy? It was commenting on the rumor at hand (so yes, a fantasy, but one that could easily happen) If Microsoft worked out a deal to allow 720 players of MW4 to play online with 360 players then that will be a huge factor for 360 owners looking to upgrade.

BC isn't a prerequisite for cross platform play. Id be surprised if we didnt see both Sony and MS have cross platform play for cod.
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