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Microsoft fires the first shot in the "NEXT" generation.... - Page 223  

post #6661 of 7006
One reason to still have a disc is data caps. I don't have one, but many in this area do. It isn't a lot either. So after people stream netflix and use the internet they don't have a lot left. Games will most likely be larger than 10GB to start and far larger as the cycle goes on. That is really the main reason I think they will keep discs in play for the foreseeable future. Some people may also have a DSL connection and it would take FOREVER to download a game.

I don't have those problems and I don't sell games so I am very fine with buying through download, I just hope they make it worth my while in some way.
post #6662 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

Well, in the scenario where you come home with a new game and want to install it, perhaps there will be an issue. Games already purchased will continue to play in the scenario of an Internet outage, which is why I called your proclamation earlier hyperbole.

Not sure that aligns with what they're saying. Maybe you know, but how do you do an offline mode where you can also take your ID and game around to others houses and play? You still need to ping Live.

Sounded to me like games will phone home once a day to make sure their license is valid. Maybe there is still an offline mode, but that would handicap what you can do as far as sharing and taking it to other machines. Trade one PITA for another I guess.
post #6663 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

You really can't with the publisher and hardware manufacturers self imposed policies. As said before I'm not sold on the underlying arguments in the first place that cause them to implement these policies, but I digress.

But there's the other rub, what exactly is the benefit of buying a physical disc at all anymore? It's only a way to transfer a license or data, you will already be buying digitally technically since it's tied to an account and you didn't need a disc in the first place. I have no idea why gamestop and retailers would sign on to this, because if they're betting consumers won't realize that, they're pretty stupid.

Unless MSONY is going to institute even more anti-consumer policy as far as DD goes to make disc seem more attractive...

There's huge benefit to DD. You could do things like pre-download encrypted and unlock right at 12:00:01 am on release and it's ready to go. But maybe thats a gold service (for a fee)? Maybe you're don't get it at all to make discs more appealing? So there's that question: what artificial barriers on DD are they going to put up to justify physical disc sales and keep retailers happy? Whats the cost to consumers? We know DD cost less to create and sell, and it appears those savings are not going to be passed on as lower prices.

It's increasingly clear the heavyweights in the industry are looking to increase their margins and just pocket the difference at no benefit for their customers. Thats terrible.

The benefit to buying the physical disc is that you can trade it in, 100% confirmed. Probably *only* at retail. It give the disc based version unequivocally higher intrinsic value. That's a huge giveaway to retail, it remains to be seen how they make DD seem worthwhile now.
post #6664 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by c.kingsley View Post

And luckily for us that Internet connections are also only down occassionally...
.....

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but my connection is bad enough during peak hours that my wife and I generally surf the web on our phones at night. Our browsers time out regularly. Not to mention anytime we have bad weather. Satellite broadband, FTW rolleyes.gif
post #6665 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

Hopefully a discount to just download it directly from Microsoft.
MS has done a great job at that with there Games On Demand service, and by great, I mean piss poor. There are games that are years old and are still more expensive to download from XBL then just going to GameStop and buying them new. This is why I have zero confidence in MS and Sony to come up with a digital distribution system that benefits the consumer. Steam has the right model but I think publishers and developers are not huge fans of Steam. The iTunes Music Store took the world by storm because it offered huge benefits to consumer over the old way of buying albums, it was built with the consumer in mind. The record labels hated iTunes though and where dragged into this new era kicking and screaming.


Just imagine a digital distribution store for games that's as beneficial and affordable as iTunes was to music, it would take the world by storm. I'm not talking about having $1 or $10 new games but something with ease of use and more affordable for consumers. Nobody liked paying $18 dollars for a CD with 1 or 2 good songs on it and nobody likes paying $60 for a game to get home and find out that it sucks. I promise you though, like iTunes, any system that puts the consumer first will not be liked by the publishers and developers. That's why it looks like MS, and possibly Sony, are designing a system that will be loved by publishers/developers first, not the consumer; we are the ones being dragged this time.
Edited by rolltide1017 - 5/24/13 at 12:32pm
post #6666 of 7006
post #6667 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

But there's the other rub, what exactly is the benefit of buying a physical disc at all anymore? It's only a way to transfer a license or data, you will already be buying digitally technically since it's tied to an account and you didn't need a disc in the first place. I have no idea why gamestop and retailers would sign on to this, because if they're betting consumers won't realize that, they're pretty stupid.
You're assuming that GameStop has a choice in the matter. Ultimately, there will be no physical media for games (which the PC space has already pioneered, as you've seen from games pre-loading before launch and then activating at midnight using services like Steam). It's just the way things are evolving, and shops that specialize in physical media will be an unfortunate victim of the change much in the same way dedicated music stores were stifled by iTunes and MP3 downloads. But again, in both of those examples, the end result was cheaper product... so you would HOPE that's what we would see in the console gaming space.

I think the system they seem to be putting in place wherein GameStop can use the console's systems for license transfer to enable in-store trade-ins is likely an intermediate measure as we transition to fully digital downloads. You've already seen some of this with GameStop selling DLC in-store.
post #6668 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

None of the big three are losing money. In fact I am pretty sure Sony is only afloat right now because of the Playstation division. TVs, Computers, cameras, Music players, etc have all lost money. I have heard more times than I can count that Sony relies heavily on the Playstation brand to keep it afloat. While the rest of Sony struggles to survive, the PS4 is coming which will mean a loss at the start. If they never made money on the PS3 I am certain they would have bailed out of the console game and went to just making games. His argument makes no sense at all.

Sonys losses also seem magnified because of the exchange rate in Yen. Yen was trading quite a bit above the dollar for most of the life of the PS3 and during Sonys major losses in their other divisions. The drop in the yen and the end of austerity in Japan is somewhat why they're finally back int the black as a whole.

Still both took major cost hits to their gaming divisions that didn't plan for. Some of it was hubris, some of it back engineering luck, and some just the horrible world economy the past 6 years.
post #6669 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyrnes View Post

One reason to still have a disc is data caps. I don't have one, but many in this area do. It isn't a lot either. So after people stream netflix and use the internet they don't have a lot left. Games will most likely be larger than 10GB to start and far larger as the cycle goes on. That is really the main reason I think they will keep discs in play for the foreseeable future. Some people may also have a DSL connection and it would take FOREVER to download a game.

I don't have those problems and I don't sell games so I am very fine with buying through download, I just hope they make it worth my while in some way.

I think they're gonna be waaaay larger than 10GB to start. That's more like the minimum you'll need to download in order to play it, I wouldnt be surprised to see 50GB games on day one....theyre gonna be pushing 150GB+ by the end.
post #6670 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Sounds like a big reveal on launch price to my ears.

$399 launch anyone?
Even at $99 I don't see them moving even 200million.
post #6671 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

The benefit to buying the physical disc is that you can trade it in, 100% confirmed. Probably *only* at retail. It give the disc based version unequivocally higher intrinsic value. That's a huge giveaway to retail, it remains to be seen how they make DD seem worthwhile now.

So they won't allow digital license sales? Why? Whats the difference? (None!)

Like I said. This is going to reek of manufactured anti-consumer polices to justify their premiums and system. No thanks.
post #6672 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Sounds like a big reveal on launch price to my ears.

$399 launch anyone?
http://winsupersite.com/xbox/xbox-one-preview

Paul Thurrott seems to think $499 will be the price and he has pretty good connection at MS.

Pricing talk is near the end of the article.
post #6673 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by J_P_A View Post

Not sure if this is sarcastic or not, but my connection is bad enough during peak hours that my wife and I generally surf the web on our phones at night. Our browsers time out regularly. Not to mention anytime we have bad weather. Satellite broadband, FTW rolleyes.gif

A simple activation check wouldn't take more than a few KB of data, I'm sure you'll be able to squeeze a few drops of data in and out at least once every 24 hours. Worst case scenario use your smartphone as a hotspot to get back online. I don't think you need to worry about accessing your single player content.
post #6674 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

So they won't allow digital license sales? Why? Whats the difference? (None!)

Like I said. This is going to reek of manufactured anti-consumer polices to justify their premiums and system. No thanks.

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at.
post #6675 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

His argument for mobile is bunk, but the losses for this generation are accurate. Posting a quarterly or yearly profit does not mean past losses are covered. Both Sony and Microsoft have not made back the money they have invested into their gaming divisions, all of this can be confirmed by reviewing their financial reports, which I have done.

I just don't understand how you are only getting the 360 info and none of the other junk that is in their division. Zune (huge failure), Windows Phone (don't think profitable), and Surface (too early) are all weights dragging down the 360, and even still the division has been turning a profit since 2008. I would imagine they are also taking the cost of the One into R&D for the past few years as well. What about them purchasing developers and setting up studios? They lose money with the purchase and it may not turn a profit for a few years.

I think it is way to hard to look at their reports and even come close to figuring out what 360 made MS this gen. Logic tells me they are making some money as investors aren't calling for a change. Early on they had to explain away the losses from the Xbox division to the investors. That doesn't happen anymore and hasn't for a long time. Maybe if I become a stock holder I will get more info than what is available online.
post #6676 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

You're assuming that GameStop has a choice in the matter. Ultimately, there will be no physical media for games (which the PC space has already pioneered, as you've seen from games pre-loading before launch and then activating at midnight using services like Steam). It's just the way things are evolving, and shops that specialize in physical media will be an unfortunate victim of the change much in the same way dedicated music stores were stifled by iTunes and MP3 downloads. But again, in both of those examples, the end result was cheaper product... so you would HOPE that's what we would see in the console gaming space.

I think the system they seem to be putting in place wherein GameStop can use the console's systems for license transfer to enable in-store trade-ins is likely an intermediate measure as we transition to fully digital downloads. You've already seen some of this with GameStop selling DLC in-store.

I don't disagree, but the difference between Gamestop and a publisher like EA is a different side of the same coin. They move product to customers.

If they think quickening their own demise in in their interest, I guess that's their prerogative. But we consumers are going to get trampled in the meantime until MS or Sony realizes there's profits to be had by ditching publishers as well as game retailers with their shinny new content delivery systems. Direct publishing, direct advertising and funding, less big money and more fractured specialization.

Thats where the real developer money is going forward. Getting read of the redundancy of publishers who take the the bulk of the margins for financing and selling. Valves got that right.
post #6677 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at.

Read the previous comment as you will be able to resell disc based games, but will not with digital downloads, even as both are only purchased licenses in this system.
post #6678 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

Have you not been paying attention to how many development houses have closed or gone bankrupt this year? And how many companies are firing staff after a game underperforms? While I think that the secondary market probably isn't the massive problem they claim it to be, you can't deny that it is a problem. And basically, this is a step away from physical media and toward full digital distribution.

Console gaming has been spoiled by the notion of "owning" the game because you bought the data on a physical piece of media. That hasn't been true of computer software... ever, really. Software outside of gaming is typically LICENSED to you for use, because you're not buying the programming code itself. But moreover, everyone complaining about all of this stuff is incapable of offering their own solution to how you have a gaming console that you can install a library of games to WITHOUT just handing the game off to someone else to install as well. You can't continue to have consoles play games off of discs because of the read time issues (which is why we saw the move to install-to-hard-drive during the current generation). These proposed measures, however unfortunate, are a necessary evil. And if you don't think Sony is going to do something very similar, you weren't paying attention to their PR speak answer to the used game question at their conference or to GameStop's response that both companies have arranged used game methods that include the secondary market.

This is the unfortunate future... and the parting shot for physical media.

Bravo!
post #6679 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osirus23 View Post

Not all American cars are junk. Toyota builds some really nice ones here smile.gif

Two works: Buick Enclave

"America F#$& YEAH!!!"
post #6680 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

Read the previous comment as you will be able to resell disc based games, but will not with digital downloads, even as both are only purchased licenses in this system.

Yes, that is exactly what I expect. That's the benefit you get from buying the disc. It's an olive branch to retailers and gamers, before they eventually transition to full on digital, where trade-ins are not part of the equation, and never have been, anywhere, for any type of media.

If MS actually were to let you trade in digital downloads....that would be an unprecedented move that would shock the entire media industry. They're not going to go there, MS doesn't want that following them around when discs go away.

So yes, there is a certain paradox in allowing you to trade in only licenses associated with a disc, but its one that people will just need to accept.
post #6681 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by vedderpj13 View Post

Bravo!

First-sale doctrine

Which actually makes more sense with Digital Download because creating additional digital widgets is both cheap and unlimited. Creators can sell IP for the optimal prices with very low production costs at any time in their life, without physical costs.

The EU has recently (correctly rules IMO) that yes this still applies to digital content.

But we're America. Capitalism is bad and IP is to protect large corporations; not to foster innovation, creativity, and freedom while providing for a means of compensation as the founders originally intended. IP is already a state sanctioned monopoly, and rightfully so. But we've drifted quite a ways away from the reasons for it as businesses have captured its regulatory intention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yes, that is exactly what I expect. That's the benefit you get from buying the disc. It's an olive branch to retailers and gamers, before they eventually transition to full on digital, where trade-ins are not part of the equation, and never have been, anywhere, for any type of media.

If MS actually were to let you trade in digital downloads....that would be an unprecedented move that would shock the entire media industry. They're not going to go there, MS doesn't want that following them around when discs go away.

So yes, there is a certain paradox in allowing you to trade in only licenses associated with a disc, but its one that people will just need to accept.

So you agree they're going to build an artificial barrier to appease retailers that doesn't benefit their gaming customers for no reason besides raising additional revenue?

It's funny how MS was sued for monopolistic practices for simply including IE in windows, yet here we are where they actively colluding with other parties to raise prices and limit resale.
post #6682 of 7006
Thread Starter 
Do you think there will be any class action lawsuits brought by independent video game retailers over this idea that GameStop and Best Buy will have a special agreement with Microsoft for trade ins ?


I'm not sure how all the legal ramifications work out, but I seriously doubt all the smaller gaming retailers across the USA are going to just "deal with it", so to speak.
post #6683 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

Yes, that is exactly what I expect. That's the benefit you get from buying the disc. It's an olive branch to retailers and gamers, before they eventually transition to full on digital, where trade-ins are not part of the equation, and never have been, anywhere, for any type of media.

If MS actually were to let you trade in digital downloads....that would be an unprecedented move that would shock the entire media industry. They're not going to go there, MS doesn't want that following them around when discs go away.

So yes, there is a certain paradox in allowing you to trade in only licenses associated with a disc, but its one that people will just need to accept.

Has it been confirmed that digital downloads will not be eligible to participate in the used game ecosystem? The way i have been reading all of the articles is that the physical media disk, which they just keep referring to as "the bits", is essentially synonymous with the digital download copy version minus the bandwidth wait/stress you have to go through downloading directly.
post #6684 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Do you think there will be any class action lawsuits brought by independent video game retailers over this idea that GameStop and Best Buy will have a special agreement with Microsoft for trade ins ?


I'm not sure how all the legal ramifications work out, but I seriously doubt all the smaller gaming retailers across the USA are going to just "deal with it", so to speak.

No as I assume that MS will also accommodate the smaller stores dealing with used games. Outside of the physical media disk (which sounds optional to me), I just see the only requirement for buying/selling the licenses is the need for a PC with internet connection and a web browser.
post #6685 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDoor View Post

Has it been confirmed that digital downloads will not be eligible to participate in the used game ecosystem? The way i have been reading all of the articles is that the physical media disk, which they just keep referring to as "the bits", is essentially synonymous with the digital download copy version minus the bandwidth wait/stress you have to go through downloading directly.

No, but we're kinda just going through the ramifications. I personally see them allowing it, or maybe tying it to Gold as an extra fee.

But I just don't see how that aligns with retailers interests and why they're going along. Sure you still have people that need to buy physical copies due to ISP limitations, but that pool is shrinking every day. The whole point behind digital licensing is the ease of use, delivery, and low cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Do you think there will be any class action lawsuits brought by independent video game retailers over this idea that GameStop and Best Buy will have a special agreement with Microsoft for trade ins ?


I'm not sure how all the legal ramifications work out, but I seriously doubt all the smaller gaming retailers across the USA are going to just "deal with it", so to speak.

In the EU, people have the right to resale, but there's no current options for that. MS seems to be building a system to do so, but my guess is a system that takes a very large fee for doing so runs afoul of the EU decree in the first place. Simply, people should be allowed to sell their digital content and it should be removed from their possession, and that's part of the creators problem. Or so the ruling would seem to say.
post #6686 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by PENDRAG0ON View Post

http://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-total-8-billion-ex-sony-employee-paints-grim-future/

The numbers come from Microsoft's and Sony's financial statements and I have verified them myself.

I don't believe anyone outside of Sony and MS has reliable numbers about the losses which are due to exactly PS3 and 360. Those financial statements to which you refer give profits and losses only for whole divisions which in both companies cases includes much more than just gaming. Unless your willing to lump the losses due to Zune etc in with 360, and similarly for Sony.
post #6687 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

Do you think there will be any class action lawsuits brought by independent video game retailers over this idea that GameStop and Best Buy will have a special agreement with Microsoft for trade ins ?


I'm not sure how all the legal ramifications work out, but I seriously doubt all the smaller gaming retailers across the USA are going to just "deal with it", so to speak.

There is no evidence Microsoft will have a special relationship with Gamestop or Bestbuy. All it would take is a retailer website to implement the rumored trade in policy.
post #6688 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TyrantII View Post

No, but we're kinda just going through the ramifications. I personally see them allowing it, or maybe tying it to Gold as an extra fee.

But I just don't see how that aligns with retailers interests and why they're going along. Sure you still have people that need to buy physical copies due to ISP limitations, but that pool is shrinking every day. The whole point behind digital licensing is the ease of use, delivery, and low cost.

True on all points. The only main reason I see retailers still wanting to participate in this whole new digital ecosystem is at the end of the day, there will still be money to be made by selling the physical media (whether its just a DLC code card or a disk). The retailers will still be able to buy at much lower costs in bulk and then in turn charge us the consumers retail. Then when the initial rush dies down and they still have inventory, the sales pop up!

EDIT: And let's not forget about those "limited" edition bundles where not only do you get extra DLC but cool things like Halo Cat Helmets! tongue.gif
post #6689 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I think they're gonna be waaaay larger than 10GB to start. That's more like the minimum you'll need to download in order to play it, I wouldnt be surprised to see 50GB games on day one....theyre gonna be pushing 150GB+ by the end.

Fortunately I'm on FiOS and don't have any download caps. I would love to be able to get access to a game at midnight, that has already been download previously on the game system. It would be superb not to have to deal with any discs. But also I expect the price to be lower. Lately I've been pre-ordering from BestBuy since I get $20 in reward zone dollars for the pre order. Essentially making my price $40 instead of $60. I would prefer a digital version but if the disc is cheaper I will get that. But it would be so nice to be able to get a game at a midnight launch without having to leave home and wait in line.

Of course I rarely deal with used games. I can count on one hand the number of used games I've purchased, and on two hands the number of games I've traded in. And those trades were only when Gamestop had special trade in deals to get the Slim PS3 or the 360 Slim. The normal trade in values are usually pretty low so I just don't bother.
post #6690 of 7006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bd2003 View Post

I think they're gonna be waaaay larger than 10GB to start. That's more like the minimum you'll need to download in order to play it, I wouldnt be surprised to see 50GB games on day one....theyre gonna be pushing 150GB+ by the end.

On what do you base these estimates?
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