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Official Chase Home Theater Owners Thread - Page 18

post #511 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

You can't source a crossover that's not set too high for the components already being used? Or a simple BSC network for the many that would benefit from it?

I mean, this is all very sad news considering what hobbyists and Erich has been able to do on the side of a landscaping business! Superior waveguides, superior (performance and/or value) compression drivers, superior crossovers... and they've only got more, better stuff in the works.

Edit: Or are you saying the PRO/SHO-10 is essentially legacy, we're scrapping and moving on with bigger and better projects?

When you say superior, in what way? Just because one might be better measured does not mean everyone will prefer the sound of it. I have said this many times and of course IMHO in my room I liked the top end of the SHO-10 better than my DE-250 CD and horn. Of course my 3012HO 12 inch driver was much better than the delta 10 in the midbass so I liked that speaker better overall. If measurements were the only way to determine superiority than they should sound better than the JTR speakers because the SEOS are dead flat and measure as good as it gets, no? Don't get me wrong, I want a flat response but I do that in my room. Don't tell me it is because of the more expensive drivers because I like my cheap driver DR's better than my expensive JBL pro drivers.
post #512 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

You can't source a crossover that's not set too high for the components already being used? Or a simple BSC network for the many that would benefit from it?

I mean, this is all very sad news considering what hobbyists and Erich has been able to do on the side of a landscaping business! Superior waveguides, superior (performance and/or value) compression drivers, superior crossovers... and they've only got more, better stuff in the works.

Superior in the context of behavior and cost, nfraso. CC and I already have two tiers of product sketched out and all but sourced above the entry-level CHT 10" 2-way. When cost rises, fidelity rises too. The question is market, not absolute (or perceived) component superiority. The latter exists in response to what the customer will bear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Edit: Or are you saying the PRO/SHO-10 is essentially legacy, we're scrapping and moving on with bigger and better projects?

Didn't say that either. In their respective categories, there's good smarts in the existing stuff, if I may say so. With regard to step compensation, it's not a strict go/no-go equation always involving six Decibels. Same dilemmas exist in horn loading versus frequency and power. Choices are always made and they're made in mind of a dozen variables and compromises.

By the way, Craig's "nephew" is a fairly veteran sound producer for major acts, and has a degree in engineering. He sourced good components to date. Eminence and other OEMS performed valuable development, in at least one instance providing a pretty special driver just for CHT.
post #513 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

When you say superior, in what way? Just because one might be better measured does not mean everyone will prefer the sound of it. I have said this many times and of course IMHO in my room I liked the top end of the SHO-10 better than my DE-250 CD and horn. Of course my 3012HO 12 inch driver was much better than the delta 10 in the midbass so I liked that speaker better overall. If measurements were the only way to determine superiority than they should sound better than the JTR speakers because the SEOS are dead flat and measure as good as it gets, no? Don't get me wrong, I want a flat response but I do that in my room. Don't tell me it is because of the more expensive drivers because I like my cheap driver DR's better than my expensive JBL pro drivers.

You'll never have "everyone" prefer the sound of something over something else, I understand. smile.gif

Take a poll/search of audio forums do you think the vast majority will prefer the D220ti over the DE250? No, but this is a small piece of the puzzle. The DE250 costs a lot more and as such should perform better. So enters the DNA-350 and 360, only marginally more expensive than the D220ti yet performing like the DE250. Now we have a no-brainer. The rear chamber of the D220ti is plastic, the DE250 aluminum. It's not necessarily all FR either. Take a look at the time domain

D220ti:



DE250:



Superior, yes but like I said, a small piece of the puzzle. The waveguide has a significant piece, and I don't see how you can argue the SEOS not being superior to the Eminence or Selenium horns used in iterations of the SHO-10. Remember, those horns among many others were already cast aside long before the SEOS was reality. The QSC 152i was most sought after, and the lack of availability is what spurred the creation of SEOS.

Here's the HM17-25/D220ti used in the SHO-10:

attachment.php?attachmentid=12561&d=1291581059

vs SEOS/DE250:

e0f0a1d1_vbattach243139.jpeg

Superior- better directivity means more constant sound for everyone in the room. I've yet to see polars on the EM:200S. But then we're introducing floor and ceiling bounce unnecessarily, unless you have some serious stadium seating going on!

Do you really believe the 3-year old, 8000+ post SEOS thread/project would be as succesful as it is if the DE250 (and clones), SEOS waveguide, and custom XO's were not superior to the D220ti, HM17-25 / EM:200S and the 1600Hz off the shelf crossover? I mean I'm genuinely asking, do you really believe that?
post #514 of 830
Again, you are putting words in mouth. I said the SHO-10 as is was a very good speaker. Hell, the polars you showed does not show that much better and not audible at all. Sure better, but make the graphs exactly the same and you will see a much closer picture. Just to be clear, starting from the beginning I would buy the SEOS over the SHO-10, however just because something cost more, measures better, does not mean it will perform better. Meaning the audibility of differences might not be realized even though it is better objectively. The point is how much is someone willing to pay extra just because it is better but you don't hear the difference? The same goes for the differences from say the 350 to the 360, the 360 is better, but it won't be noticed to most. Maybe even the 205 vs the 360 when used within it's parameters.
post #515 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

Superior in the context of behavior and cost, nfraso. CC and I already have two tiers of product sketched out and all but sourced above the entry-level CHT 10" 2-way. When cost rises, fidelity rises too. The question is market, not absolute (or perceived) component superiority. The latter exists in response to what the customer will bear.

Help me understand with an example.

Eminence Eminator EM:200S: $15
Selenium D220Ti: $50
Eminence PXB2:1K6: $45
Eminence Delta 10A: $80

Total: $190

(These are all consumer prices, I'm sure Chase must be able to do better.)

What remains? Cabinet, polyfill, ports, binding posts, screws, paint, labor. Set these aside, as they remain the same in any alternative.

L-pad and additional crossover "tweaks"? It's a wash since we'd be building an XO from scratch replacing those as well as the PXB2:1K6 parts.

So what would an all-around improved design cost? Here's just one example:

SEOS-12: $28
Denovo DNA-360: $32
Eminence Delta 10A: $80
Assembled set of crossover parts: $60

Total: $200

That's just one example, and probably overkill. You could certainly swap in a SEOS-10 and DNA-205, still upgrade performance and actually save money doing it.

Absolute component superiority is there. The market is there (it's identical to the current SHO-10 market). Now, if some hobbyists and a landscaper can put this together... why is it so wrong to expect more out of Chase/TAI and their connections and resources?
Edited by nfraso - 10/7/13 at 4:03pm
post #516 of 830
There are practical reasons why I'm pushing this. Take Gorilla's example just a few posts back. He agrees the PRO/SHO-10 could use a waveguide and crossover upgrade to make them shine. He sold his set and upgraded to something really not any more expensive (same league) in his custom SEOS design since he had the woofers laying around. Same woofer as the PRO-10, different waveguide/CD, different XO, yielding a better all around implementation he prefers.

I've sold my set of PRO/SHO-10, which used both HM17-25 and EM:200S. I'll likely end up with a SEOS design similarly priced to the current SHO-10.

These aren't isolated occurances. There's a hunger for more than this current SHO-10 design offers, and people are going elsewhere. Heck, I don't even think it matters much if the absolute subjective differences are significant- if the perception is there (and it is), people look elsewhere.

To bring things more related to the thread's location, look at the 19mm 18" Eminence subwoofer Chase uses in the SS line. Compare with Gorilla and ten-thousand (exaggerated! biggrin.gif) other people's black box Dayton 18" HO's or SI18's. The market is there, but they've moved on. These options match or outperform output and also give you a much less nose-dived response to work with.

Time to step up the game! I don't see why anyone would vote against that.
post #517 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Now, if some hobbyists and a landscaper can put this together... why is it so wrong to expect more out of Chase/TAI and their connections and resources?

Frankly? Because the premise is quite wrong. Even if it were correct, we'd have to go into thousands of elements I'm not going to discuss. See your preceding text for a handful of them. Logistics alone fill volumes.

Believe me, when opportunity exists, we fill it - no reason not to. Nature abhors a vacuum.
post #518 of 830
If that's the best you can do, I look forward to following the future of this "merger".

The premise of CHT has always been, "you can't build it the same or better and save much money, so get it from us and save the hassle- here's why".

Since those days are gone, it seems the premise is now, "it's good enough, and most people won't tell the difference anyway".

I mean, am I poorly articulating that we want better products and it sounds like you have no interest in making them?
post #519 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

If that's the best you can do, I look forward to following the future of this "merger".

Let's try this another way: Is that reasonably predicated? And yes, that's just a rhetorical question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I mean, am I poorly articulating that we want better products and it sounds like you have no interest in making them?

I'm not sure how many questions and how many leading questions that is, but as far as I can grasp what you're asking, I already said we have no reason not to innovate value and offer it. No one does and we intend to more than compete with them.

What I seem to be failing at is making the point that that's not going to resemble what some think it should. That's partly because they cannot be expected to know the production back story or frankly, the design engineering.
post #520 of 830
Sighs cost of the parts equal $190. Then you add the cabinets including finish and you have what? Then add the cost for someone to put the together for you and $350 does not seem too bad, no?

I would not compare those graphs from gorilla as there are too many differences. The variables of the scale and levels are too different to get a good picture.

Take the JTR for example, Jeff is charging more in labor per parts than Craig except they are using much more expensive parts than SEOS so there are no issues. Some people will pay the extra for built cabinets and warranties than Kits. Now having said all that I would rather buy kits myself but you are making out to be the SHO-10's are crap and the SEOS is so much better in every way. I am saying within certain parameters and rooms they maybe more alike than different. At the limits they will pull away.
post #521 of 830
Jon, it sounds like you're "subtly" hinting that you aren't interested in discussing anything substantial. "We'd have to go into thousands of elements I'm not going to discuss", "rhetorical question", "cannot be expected to know the production back story".

You're busy, have cards up your sleeve, whatever- I get it. That's fine. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Sighs cost of the parts equal $190. Then you add the cabinets including finish and you have what? Then add the cost for someone to put the together for you and $350 does not seem too bad, no?

I would not compare those graphs from gorilla as there are too many differences. The variables of the scale and levels are too different to get a good picture.

Take the JTR for example, Jeff is charging more in labor per parts than Craig except they are using much more expensive parts than SEOS so there are no issues. Some people will pay the extra for built cabinets and warranties than Kits. Now having said all that I would rather buy kits myself but you are making out to be the SHO-10's are crap and the SEOS is so much better in every way. I am saying within certain parameters and rooms they maybe more alike than different. At the limits they will pull away.

Of course, and it's also common knowledge that component costs for the consumer on a SEOS build are pretty much identical, and you yourself said you'd go that route... Requesting some simple albeit minor upgrades is warranted for a design that has some room to grow. Or maybe you'd prefer they left it as is (entry level so to speak) and introduced a $600-800 higher end option, I don't know.

Gorilla said his graphs are apples to apples- with his reputation and skills I don't think we have any reason to doubt them. If you have some specific reasons, that would be one thing. Scale and levels are easy to adjust for, the data remains the same. With CHTs history of graphs/measurements this out with the old, in with the old approach to graphs is a bit worrying.

I think we're both more in agreement than not. I had the PRO/SHO-10s, both woofers, both horns. I understand the value, and they certainly aren't "crap". Like others, I really needed BSC in my implementation (and I wasn't even that far off the wall), they were a bit thin, and as a center with vocals I found them a bit nasaly at times. They were better with 2ch music sitting dead center than HT content and off center with guests. I just honestly believe there is more horsepower to be had with a custom XO. Off axis performance would be improved with a better waveguide, but I know not everyone needs that. Of course there are other benefits that reduce the typical horn-associated negative characteristics.

The SEOS options are improvements on the original Econowave ideas that CHT built with, they aren't in another league expense-wise, and they offer a ton more variations and options that present nearly everyone a unique option for their scenario.

What it sounds like is being said is that since no one else is selling a completely built high sensitivity / constant directivity speaker in this price range, we don't have to change anything yet. If that's the case, I hope someone else brings something to the table and more obviously forces some innovation (though I personally believe we're already there). I mean, I'm not holding my breath from what I'm hearing. I'm supposed to just buy the same thing again that I've already tried?
post #522 of 830
Jon,
As someone that has been enjoying my CHT setup (SHO-10's and dual VS18.1's) in my dedicated HT for well over a year now, I look forward to seeing what this new partnership brings forth!

JD
post #523 of 830
I am just saying that even with the short comings of the SHO-10's they played extremely well in my room and did not exhibit anything like you did in your room. I am just saying that even though there is more room for improvement it may not be noticed at the user end. The eD speakers I owned were fully upgraded and I believe only 2 sets of those were made. They were basically a 4 PI top end with the 3012 HO woofer. So that speaker had a better horn, CD, and especially woofer with a robust crossover. The cabinet was second to none! Even though it was better in every way it was not a huge difference than the SHO-10's, that is all I am saying.

Do I think the SHO-10 can be improved upon? Yes but it would not be a simple crossover that would do it for me. That is why I said don't bother upgrading the SHO-10 and just go for all of it. I said I think it would take a SEOS JBL 2226, Eminence 3012 HO, and or AE TD or TX 12 or 15! That way it will be a big step up and no doubts! I own 6 deltalites and they are excellent, but the above are just that much better. To me upgrading a SHO-10 with just a crossover would be aware of time and energy, just go for the big boys and as a kit not much more. I has tested too many speakers that were more of a lateral move to me than a true upgrade. You see to me even though the eD special was a huge upgrade in parts and cost, the overall improvement was not worth it. Of course this is coming from someone that owned $3000 each speakers for $400 each from the man himself, Erich! After that bargain deal even kits are a no go for me! IMHO matching those JBL pro cinemas for movies is a talk task! Without experiencing those the eD special would be up there. I would probably go for those again if my screen was much bigger and I could place them in the corners with a center.
post #524 of 830
I don't know, obviously going to a 12 is getting you more mid output where the Delta10 runs out of steam- but set that obvious difference aside and I don't think I've seen anyone go PRO/SHO-10 to SEOS and end up disappointed even with that being a "subtle" upgrade as you argue.

cdy2179 noted breakup in the top end of his, which lines up with the graph I posted of the D220ti (and common knowledge of that CD, especially vs DE250).

Brad Horstkotte noted that they sounded less "boxy" which lines up with my thoughts on the vocals. I know exactly what he means.

Other shootout thoughts on the SHO-10 give very similar observations:

"Movie dialog wasn't as good as B (JTR T8), I heard just a touch of that "small/tiny" sound I don't like but not too bad which didn't make any sense to me given my preference for music vocals on these."

"I thought the tonality of the vocals was strange. It was a bit off but I cannot put my finger on it."

"The presentation seemed the clearest but there was also some nasal quality to vocals. Not like Lois Griffin nasal but seemed more like undeveloped teenagers vocals, maybe due to recessed high end (NOT the haaaaaaa or maybe it is huhhhhhhhhh sound you hear with prepubescent kids, I remember listening tests over this in middle school, has this singer’s chords matured yet?)."

It sounds like you didn't hear this though, so I can only assume there is inconsistency with the speakers shipped, or something in your room/setup that mitigated that issue for you.

I don't see how a proper XO couldn't fix this issue for those like us that hear this while not negatively affecting guys like you who don't.

Put simply, it would be a noticeably better speaker if we didn't hear this issue, no? So it no longer would fall into the "subtle", or "unnoticeable" upgrade category, right?
post #525 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Jon, it sounds like you're "subtly" hinting that you aren't interested in discussing anything substantial. "We'd have to go into thousands of elements I'm not going to discuss", "rhetorical question", "cannot be expected to know the production back story".

You're busy, have cards up your sleeve, whatever- I get it. That's fine. smile.gif

It only sounds like that if someone insist it does, from which point it'd still lack a correlation with the facts I've seen. Again, with supply logistics, cost, and all the technical particulars weighed in, the design is smart and well done.

Anyone is free to blue-sky a DIY wish list but it's not going to insert itself into a production scenario that of you and I only I can be expected to know the particulars of, nor is it going to be inherently superior because of a personal whim or a DIY trend.

There really are innumerable variables in all of these areas, and although I've been abreast of everything from waveguides to Azura expansions to CD to you-name-it for the better part of thirty years - having written routine Tractrix plotting software in the Eighties, for one minor example - decisions are quite commonly made for myriad reasons beyond the apparent or the assumed in the retail market.

It's not difficult to refute the notion of flippancy or secrecy or whatever you're insinuating. There are not cards up sleeves but there are many decisions in the design, engineering, production, and supply chain. The point being, again, that we'll naturally always do whatever a maker can to improve everything we favorably control at X cost and price point. Consider that of them just re-staging a product for one extra-production retrofit of a "hot new" component can add a good fifteen percent to produced cost and tens of dollars to the retail product. Everything matters.

While pages of those confidential particulars probably won't make their way online, that mandate at least can be shared.
post #526 of 830
I'll put it this way - I've been lucky enough to listen to 20+ different very capable speaker setups in my own room. The SHO-10s held their own and more and are/were pretty much unmatched at the 400 dollar price point and maybe up to 800 or so for those looking for a high efficiency monitor. I'm excluding DIY here as it's not a fair or equitable comparison as we DIYers are the minority. Are they the best I've heard in my room? Of course not, but now we're comparing a 400 dollar speaker to upward of 4000 each. Keep in mind I've heard Seaton Cat8s, Cat12s, SVS ultras, Legacy Focus SEs, JTR Noesis, most of the SEOS lineup from the 8's to 15's, and my Yorkville U215s in my room and on the same day.

Many of the guys out there are NOT looking to DIY and for them I sincerely hope that Chane continues to offer something like the SHO-10 as there isn't much out there at that price point.

Jon - Congratulations and I wish the best to you guys. Going to be exciting watching what unfolds in the near future.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 10/8/13 at 5:22am
post #527 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

It's not difficult to refute the notion of flippancy or secrecy or whatever you're insinuating. There are not cards up sleeves but there are many decisions in the design, engineering, production, and supply chain. The point being, again, that we'll naturally always do whatever a maker can to improve everything we favorably control at X cost and price point. Consider that of them just re-staging a product for one extra-production retrofit of a "hot new" component can add a good fifteen percent to produced cost and tens of dollars to the retail product. Everything matters.

While pages of those confidential particulars probably won't make their way online, that mandate at least can be shared.

Now we're getting somewhere. Consider this, we've already had "extra-production retrofits" of:

1) "Hot new" midwoof, more sensitivity, etc.

2) "Hot new" cabinet redesign with slot port instead of round ports

3) "Hot new" waveguide in the EM:200S 90x90 vs the original HM17-25 60x40

4) "Hot new" cabinet redesign (redux) with even better thicker, stronger finish and new grill

I mean, we're literally referring to these things (and CHT has officially) as the "2011" model, the "2012" model, etc. because they seem to change every year, if not sooner. I don't even think I've covered everything that has changed; it's difficult to keep track. Somewhere in those cabinet redesigns there were baffle spacing changes (mid to wg).

I suppose there could be enough people who want a barebones as-cheap-as-possible SHO-10 that you could justify not changing a thing (even though they've historically been a constant tinkering-in-progress design!), because they're "good enough" as is, and added cost to the consumer wouldn't be justified. Yet we are also told specifically to expect refinements:

"Current Chase 10” 2-way theater monitors are a natural fit for the Chane line. Expect refinements and new models as we progress"


If you're already "re-staging a product for another extra-production retrofit", it's only that much more reasonable to assume performance refinements are on the table for discussion.

However, I'm getting the impression that Chane is shifting away from CHT's near-motto of "What do you want?" to "We know what we're doing, I've done this for 30 years, we'll let you know we have something new for sale, we're not looking for your input, our marketing department can handle that." The reason I keep getting impressions is because your posts are a bit cryptic or vague, leaving me to stab at conclusions in the dark.

--

On a side note, are you saying that crossing the Delta-10A at 1600Hz 2nd order isn't too high- that 3rd or 4th would be just a "DIY trend"? Or are you saying SEOS (or any improvements on the EM200:S) is just a "DIY trend"? I'm trying to figure out what the "DIY trend" is that you referred to.
post #528 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Many of the guys out there are NOT looking to DIY and for them I sincerely hope that Chane continues to offer something like the SHO-10 as there isn't much out there at that price point.

That much is fair. Though I have seen many that were NOT looking to DIY end up being funneled into it due to lack of other options. Even more so at this point as clamps, glue and some paint are very easily doable by those who wouldn't otherwise be looking to DIY by breaking out the track saw. All at a myriad of price points surrounding the SHO-10. I guess I'm saying, much has changed since the SHO-10 arrived (3?) years ago- you know that first hand of course. There will always be folks "allergic" to DIY for certain, but the prospect is getting much easier, not harder that's for sure. The bar is rising.

For what it's worth, understanding you're happy with the SHO-10 value as is- but considering we are told to "expect refinements", what would you "vote" they address with such? And I'd ask the same of MK too, or anyone with some listening time on these things. I'm certainly not assuming Chane is interested in or looking for the input at this point; this is merely curiosity.

From my perspective, we've got three blind observations here at the shootout, myself and Brad H at a minimum all who I would wager put this issue at the top of their respective lists for "refinements":


"Movie dialog wasn't as good as B (JTR T8), I heard just a touch of that "small/tiny" sound I don't like but not too bad which didn't make any sense to me given my preference for music vocals on these."

"I thought the tonality of the vocals was strange. It was a bit off but I cannot put my finger on it."

"The presentation seemed the clearest but there was also some nasal quality to vocals. Not like Lois Griffin nasal but seemed more like undeveloped teenagers vocals, maybe due to recessed high end (NOT the haaaaaaa or maybe it is huhhhhhhhhh sound you hear with prepubescent kids, I remember listening tests over this in middle school, has this singer’s chords matured yet?)."


I've yet to hear these observations for similar designs using any of the same components, so I can only fairly assume the crossover is to blame.

Maybe I'm alone here and you and MK would prefer they make refinements to cosmetics, flush mount the driver/waveguide, curved back, more finish options, etc.
post #529 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I don't know, obviously going to a 12 is getting you more mid output where the Delta10 runs out of steam- but set that obvious difference aside and I don't think I've seen anyone go PRO/SHO-10 to SEOS and end up disappointed even with that being a "subtle" upgrade as you argue.

cdy2179 noted breakup in the top end of his, which lines up with the graph I posted of the D220ti (and common knowledge of that CD, especially vs DE250).

Brad Horstkotte noted that they sounded less "boxy" which lines up with my thoughts on the vocals. I know exactly what he means.

Other shootout thoughts on the SHO-10 give very similar observations:

"Movie dialog wasn't as good as B (JTR T8), I heard just a touch of that "small/tiny" sound I don't like but not too bad which didn't make any sense to me given my preference for music vocals on these."

"I thought the tonality of the vocals was strange. It was a bit off but I cannot put my finger on it."

"The presentation seemed the clearest but there was also some nasal quality to vocals. Not like Lois Griffin nasal but seemed more like undeveloped teenagers vocals, maybe due to recessed high end (NOT the haaaaaaa or maybe it is huhhhhhhhhh sound you hear with prepubescent kids, I remember listening tests over this in middle school, has this singer’s chords matured yet?)."

It sounds like you didn't hear this though, so I can only assume there is inconsistency with the speakers shipped, or something in your room/setup that mitigated that issue for you.

I don't see how a proper XO couldn't fix this issue for those like us that hear this while not negatively affecting guys like you who don't.

Put simply, it would be a noticeably better speaker if we didn't hear this issue, no? So it no longer would fall into the "subtle", or "unnoticeable" upgrade category, right?

First let's get this straight, I only listen to movies and compare side by side with the movies I know. So you guys(5 of you) heard some things and the speaker is bad? How about the much more people that compared them to better speakers and they hold their own? I know, you guys even heard the DR-250's and know what they sound like based on that audition right? You have to keep reminding yourself that I do think the SEOS delta 10 would be a better speaker! I am just saying if someone already owns the SHO-10 and they like it there is no need to change as in that other thread. It won't be that much of an improvement. I did say the better SEOS speakers would be worth it and all day long! My JBL pro speakers kicked the crap out of most all my speakers I owned(again, movies) and they use better parts. That is my frame of reference and I still own a 888LP to remind me of their sound. I bought my SHO-10's for $300 each all assembled and did not keep them as my JBL's were just much better. Can they improve them and should they, well sure progress is always great. BTW some of those reviews do not agree with the in room responses of the speakers so subjective comments are what they are. I have 7 guys who thought they were better than the eD special with the awesome DE-250 and 4 Pi horn with one hell of a woofer. I did not matter to them what was made with what. My absolute favorite speaker were the giant line arrays from McIntosh but that was their theater room at their factory. Maybe they suck in my room. IDK man, you guys heard the DR-250 and thought they sucked even though they were setup wrong but still link to that shootout as if gospel. I told Desertdome to sell me the speakers after the GTG because I knew they are hard to tweak, like the DTS-10. Why? Because they are outdoor speakers and I take days to get them the way I like them. They are designed that way. Well, not designed to be tweaked for days as that is just me.

In conclusion, yes, I agree and think the SEOS delta 10 with SEOS 12 and DNA-350 and delta 10 woofer would be an upgrade from the SHO-10, but it will not be as big as many hope it to be but what it gets you is a great speaker at a reduced price. My recommendation to people who are looking to buy new always gets a SEOS nod from me and people with SHO-10's I say get SEOS with the JBL or AE 15's! The difference is worth it! Not because of the top end! The reason I say that is I don't see the SEOS waveguide being that much better than the Pi waveguide although I do like it better even never hearing it.

Also please show those polars on the same scale and the differences are not as big as you might think, especially in our smaller rooms. The difference is noticed when sitting farther away and the better waveguide and CD will have more output of axis. Another reason the SHO-10 does well in my room as every seat is still within the SHO's red in the front row.

You seem to be forgetting that every room is different and some speakers will work just as good as others which are supposed to be better.

Come over and I will show what a $500 speaker can do and it won't sound anything like what you thought it would based on a GTG.
post #530 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

First let's get this straight, I only listen to movies and compare side by side with the movies I know. So you guys(5 of you) heard some things and the speaker is bad?

Now worries MK, I follow- we're on the same page. No, I'm not saying the speaker is bad, and I'm definitely not saying you didn't hear what you heard (or anyone else for that matter). I'm saying it's "bad" for me; I didn't like the vocals in both of very different rooms with and without EQ that I've tried. Since we have blind comments from other people noting the same, it's fair to assume what I heard wasn't isolated to me, or just one room, or one particular EQd response- it's an issue for others. Heck, maybe it's an issue for 5 people on the whole planet. I think that would be quite a stretch- it's not like boxy or nasaly vocals are a new issue for speaker designs. Maybe it's only an issue for 2 sets of these and yours were just fine.

Just the fact that you would recommend a new buyer look at SEOS designs over the SHO-10 (and I would agree) tells me that they have some work to do to "innovate".

But now that I've had a chance to get caught up on these changes, and although Jon declines to make it clear (whether the PRO/SHO-10 is now legacy), it seems like indeed those models are gone and replaced by a ~94dB mystery unit called the MS-10 or the Theater-10 (the naming seems to switch around):



I guess what I missed earlier in this announcement was that the "theater monitors" refers to this new 'Theater-10' and not the SHO-10, but it also says "current Chase 10" 2-way", and though this new design was announced 6mos ago, I don't think anyone has actually seen or heard one:

"Current Chase 10” 2-way theater monitors are a natural fit for the Chane line. Expect refinements and new models as we progress"

It looked like that model had faded since "supply chains from many of these Chinese companies are not very reliable" and they hadn't started to be built 3mos ago- but now it looks like they're suddenly part of Chane's first group buy and shipping?

It's all a bit confusing.
post #531 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Consider this, we've already had "extra-production retrofits" of

(list snipped for brevity)
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I mean, we're literally referring to these things (and CHT has officially) as the "2011" model, the "2012" model, etc. because they seem to change every year, if not sooner. I don't even think I've covered everything that has changed; it's difficult to keep track. Somewhere in those cabinet redesigns there were baffle spacing changes (mid to wg).

I'm not referring to those things. Your list recounts design evolution and not extra-production retrofits of a product platform. That's a very important distinction, nfraso.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I suppose there could be enough people who want a barebones as-cheap-as-possible SHO-10 that you could justify not changing a thing (even though they've historically been a constant tinkering-in-progress design!), because they're "good enough" as is, and added cost to the consumer wouldn't be justified. Yet we are also told specifically to expect refinements:

"Current Chase 10” 2-way theater monitors are a natural fit for the Chane line. Expect refinements and new models as we progress"

I think you may be arguing against yourself. As I think I've said, 1) the product is naturally always going to be subject to evolutionary progress within its supply chain capacity (which strongly relates to its cost and hence its price), and 2) that subjecting it to a wish list of trendy "upgrades" is as fraught with trade-offs as it is cost creep as it is insubstantial real upgrades. Which some seem to have condemned already, calling it tinkering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

If you're already "re-staging a product for another extra-production retrofit", it's only that much more reasonable to assume performance refinements are on the table for discussion.

Again: They are on Chane's table. I believe you've confirmed that intent and practice. Whether we divulge all everyone would like or whether we move in a specific direction or especially whether everyone agrees with Chane's assessment is another matter. We'll probably not adopt any particular external list of presumed features or "upgrades".
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

However, I'm getting the impression that Chane is shifting away from CHT's near-motto of "What do you want?" to "We know what we're doing, I've done this for 30 years, we'll let you know we have something new for sale, we're not looking for your input, our marketing department can handle that." The reason I keep getting impressions is because your posts are a bit cryptic or vague, leaving me to stab at conclusions in the dark.

I'm afraid I can't help with that impression under all possible conditions.

If that's too cryptic it's because we're not going to disclose all variables, poll them, or use other opinion to make decisions involving them. There are too many, they'll become immediately controversial, they won't make lists of pet "upgrades", and they will, if they're allowed to decide design for us, add significant and unjustified cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

On a side note, are you saying that crossing the Delta-10A at 1600Hz 2nd order isn't too high- that 3rd or 4th would be just a "DIY trend"? Or are you saying SEOS (or any improvements on the EM200:S) is just a "DIY trend"? I'm trying to figure out what the "DIY trend" is that you referred to.

I'll answer that in light of your lead-off comment:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

Now we're getting somewhere.

Unfortunately we're not getting somewhere if Chane cannot own its own intent. If we re-engineer a product in public it's going to strike a number of minds - whose perhaps part time design sensibilities outweigh our full time experience - the wrong way. We'll probably be taken to task by conventional wisdom and not sound reasoning in possession of all the dynamics and facts.

If, on the other hand, someone wants to ask what we intend I'll keep explaining it providing it's not remodeled into something it's not been. In other words, remodeling our stated intent is probably a negative precursor to accepting whatever it may be.
post #532 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

It's all a bit confusing.

There are a pair of toll-free telephone numbers plus email addresses available to use.
post #533 of 830
I have not really followed the new products. I liked the idea of getting a built econowave type speaker for the masses. I don't know anything of the new speaker.
post #534 of 830
I don't understand what all this fuss is all about - especially regarding a crossover on a model of speaker* that is currently not available through ChaseHT.

Chase and Lane will merge, re-organize and start selling existing / modified / new products. Some people will buy their stuff, others won't. Some customers will be satisfied, others won't. Some customer feedback will likely be used to improve existing products, other feedback likely won't.

No different than any other company. smile.gif

________________________
(*A buddy of mine has SHO-10s as his L-C-R. Awesome speakers for HT, IMO, and pretty damned good for music, too. cool.gif )
Edited by eljaycanuck - 10/8/13 at 8:52am
post #535 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

No different than any other company.

You're right, that's exactly the conclusion I've arrived at.

Best of luck to Chane- I guess I'll check back in when some substantial information is available to us lowly minions. biggrin.gif
post #536 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

I guess I'll check back in when some substantial information is available to us lowly minions. biggrin.gif

Our contact info is public.

As for some substantial information as it may regard in-depth and almost universally behind the scenes product planning and technical information, the best description of our rather unremarkable policy may be the one before yours,
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

No different than any other company.
post #537 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I don't understand what all this fuss is all about - especially regarding a crossover on a model of speaker* that is currently not available through ChaseHT.

Chase and Lane will merge, re-organize and start selling existing / modified / new products. Some people will buy their stuff, others won't. Some customers will be satisfied, others won't. Some customer feedback will likely be used to improve existing products, other feedback likely won't.

No different than any other company. smile.gif

________________________
(*A buddy of mine has SHO-10s as his L-C-R. Awesome speakers for HT, IMO, and pretty damned good for music, too. cool.gif )

+1

Seems to me Jon Lane has provide more than adequate explanation. And you have to give the man a chance to design, test, and then decide what's best for the Chane line smile.gif
post #538 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I don't understand what all this fuss is all about - especially regarding a crossover on a model of speaker* that is currently not available through ChaseHT.

Agree,
Lots of armchair quarterbacking going on regarding what should have been done or what should be done in the future.

nfraso you do have options:

A) Submit your resume to Craig and Jon. Maybe their hiring.
B) Put your own arse on the line. Invest the significant dollars required to get an actual company up and running. Offer up your own products to the marketplace. Just be ready to take a lot of shots from armchair quarterbacks.

JD
post #539 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Lane View Post

As for some substantial information as it may regard in-depth and almost universally behind the scenes product planning and technical information, the best description of our rather unremarkable policy may be the one before yours,

One would think- yet correct me where I'm getting this wrong (again, I'm having to wade through the vagueness), you have a new product that is in both "behind the scenes product planning" stages (justifying the hush hush), and also now available for reservation in a group buy, already built, and possibly shipping (presumably to Chane?) in a few days (assuming it's a 'primary' product: "The primary products are not in stock yet, but they are built, and the shipping will occur in the next few days."). The website shows the old product out of stock with next shipment to be determined, and the new one nowhere to be found.

Compound that with the fact that you have no interest in answering directly whether this new product is even replacing the old one, while the new one hasn't really been officially announced other than saying that this is the replacement we are currently testing (6 mos ago), followed by a statement that supply chains are unreliable (3 mos ago) and new revisions to the old model would be preferred. Now we have a merger and out of the blue they are available to reserve.

I'm the only one confused by this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

And you have to give the man a chance to design, test, and then decide what's best for the Chane line smile.gif

OK, so I guess I'm not the only one. You're saying to give him time to design, test and decide what's best. For the SHO-10 or the Theater-10? It seems like all of that has already been done (by the Chase part of Chane, not Lane) since the new maybe-replacement design is up for reservations.

Unless we're talking about designing, testing and deciding on a replacement for the maybe-replacement which nobody has seen or heard yet? In which case the group buy maybe-replacements (Theater-10) are some sort of beta run? Or clearing of old new product? Presumably Lane didn't design these 6mos prior to the merger announcement?

Is it so strange to wonder when people are being asked to sign up to purchase this Theater-10 not knowing yet if it's replacing the SHO-10 for good, or if something else is replacing the Theater-10 in the future ("expect refinements" to the current 10" 2-way being the phrase used)? Which one is the current one?
post #540 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

OK, so I guess I'm not the only one. You're saying to give him time to design, test and decide what's best. For the SHO-10 or the Theater-10?

I'm saying you are running this issue into the ground. Enough has been said (and said, and said, and said). Wait and see what happens.
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