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Official Chase Home Theater Owners Thread - Page 19

post #541 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I'm saying you are running this issue into the ground. Enough has been said (and said, and said, and said). Wait and see what happens.

How so? Are we supposed to "wait and see", or place our reservations?
post #542 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by nfraso View Post

How so? Are we supposed to "wait and see", or place our reservations?

If you aren't satisfied with what you have been told, wait and see. That's what most people would do. LOL
post #543 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

If you aren't satisfied with what you have been told, wait and see. That's what most people would do. LOL

I follow. wink.gif I guess I'm asking if anyone out there is satisfied with what they've been told, and if so, would they kindly share.
post #544 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Wait and see what happens.

Yes, and he could call too.
post #545 of 830
Is this official?

post #546 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I'm saying you are running this issue into the ground. Enough has been said (and said, and said, and said). Wait and see what happens.
+1. Talk about beating a dead horse jeez.
post #547 of 830
To beat a dead horse would require resolution to the conversation. Considering all we've attained is more questions and fewer answers... the horse is alive and kicking. I'd much prefer to be slaying the slain right now. It's certainly true that it appears a futile effort at the moment. I'm resigned that all we can do is watch it chase it's tail for now and check back later.
post #548 of 830
post #549 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

The conversation has been resolved - it just hasn't been resolved to your liking. wink.gif

Yeah, I guess you could argue it has resolved.



"The ambiguity is the only truth."

If that doesn't sum up what I've experienced here today, I don't know what does. biggrin.gif
post #550 of 830
Quote:
"The ambiguity is the only truth."

If that doesn't sum up what I've experienced here today, I don't know what does. biggrin.gif
In the immortal words of Kent Brockman: "Well, touché!" cool.gif
post #551 of 830
Neato, sounds like a cool merger. Hopefully it's a recipe for success!
post #552 of 830
Just order an SS 18.2 to go with two SS 18.1's. It will be interesting getting this thing downstairs to the basement due to the size. I am going to co-locate the SS 18.1's to start and see what type of response I get with the 18.2 in the mix. ETA is Friday. I am considering level matching the 18.1's and 18.2. Anyone else tried this vs gain matching? I had my subs gain matched when they were up stairs with good results. Gain matching does not work in the basement with the SS 18.1 apart. The sub is localized due to different locations in the room with gain matching?
Edited by derrickdj1 - 10/22/13 at 5:02pm
post #553 of 830
The SS 18.2 arrived yesterday and was setup. The 18.2 was level matched to the co-located 18.1's. The SS 18.1's are close to 1/8 space and the SS 18.2 is 1/2 spaced. The gains on the two Berhinger amps are around 10 and 12 O'clock respectively. Auto-calibration with MCACC was done and then the subs had a 5 db boost at 20 Hz. I was concerned that the amp/sub for the SS 18.2 could be overdriven.

After testing several movies with LFE and music my concerns where not founded. The meter readouts on the 2 amps is almost identical. Gee, these things sure sound good! the bass is tight, LFE are off the hook and music is outstanding. The DSP on the Berhingers allows you to really tune the sub. The tricky part is the learning curve to use the amp properly. Surprisingly no major PEQ was needed.
post #554 of 830
Damn. That must be bonkers in person... nice! Have you got any pics of your setup?
post #555 of 830
Here is a pic of the setup with stacked SS 18.1s. The McIntosh speakers are for 2 channel listening. I know it is over kill, lol.. In this hobby nothing excels like excess equipment, he he. The HT is a Klipsch RF 7 based system with the mains on a Yamaha M 80, The RC 64 on a Carver amp, Pioneer Elite SC 35 avr. The silver amp is a MAC 1700
DSCN1285.JPG 812k .JPG file ,
Edited by derrickdj1 - 10/26/13 at 12:28am
post #556 of 830
Great set-up! cool.gif
post #557 of 830
Nice setup!
post #558 of 830
Thanks guys!
post #559 of 830
Nice Looking Setup Derrick!
post #560 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

The SS 18.2 arrived yesterday and was setup. The 18.2 was level matched to the co-located 18.1's. The SS 18.1's are close to 1/8 space and the SS 18.2 is 1/2 spaced. The gains on the two Berhinger amps are around 10 and 12 O'clock respectively. Auto-calibration with MCACC was done and then the subs had a 5 db boost at 20 Hz. I was concerned that the amp/sub for the SS 18.2 could be overdriven.

.


MCACC doesn't eq the subs, so that 5 db boost at 20hz is your room. Nice! So, yeah like you said you don't have to worry about overdriving due to an autocalibration boost.
post #561 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I will post some graphs here just for kicks and get this thread going. I know many here think the CS 18.2 or 18.1 are bad designs but they are not and works very well in sealed rooms, whether big or small. The driver has 19mm of X-max and an FS of 22 hz according to Eminence. They are also sensitive meaning they do not need lots of power. I use 8 of the drivers to ensure I have enough X-max to EQ for ULF(ultra low frequencies).

.
Who cares what people think MK. IF they sound good to you and work in your room that is all that count. I thought in some past GTG's they faired pretty well against the competition.
post #562 of 830
Holy mackerel, that's a nice setup! I see stuff like that and feel inspired.
post #563 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

MCACC doesn't eq the subs, so that 5 db boost at 20hz is your room. Nice! So, yeah like you said you don't have to worry about overdriving due to an autocalibration boost.

MCACC standing wave function will target 3 frequencies, adjust the Q or bandwidth and set the attenuation or gain at those frequencies down to 63 Hz. That is exactly what a parametric eq. will do. The other things MCACC does is adjust for peaks and dips below 63 Hz at the 2nd or 3rd harmonic which is what is heard. This mean that I don't need REW or graphs to correct things under 63 Hz in my room. MCACC is an excellent room correction program IMHO. The 5 db boost in my system at 20 Hz is done with the Berhinger I Nuke 3000 DSP which has PEQ and DEQ. One thing that I have noticed on avs is that the Chase sub people don't seem to be in search for a better sub. Some of the other brands get more discussion possibly because an 18 in. sub is not doable for most people.

The sensitivity of the driver I believe is around 95% which is extremely important for the mid bass slam. Some subs can deliver good extension or mid bass slam but, not both. The Berhinger is a decent amp for subwoofer use but has a learning curve. It can be easily setup wrong which will affect the subs performance. I love these subs with music and HT!
Edited by derrickdj1 - 10/26/13 at 7:01pm
post #564 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

One thing that I have noticed on avs is that the Chase sub people don't seem to be in search for a better sub. Some of the other brands get more discussion possibly because an 18 in. sub is not doable for most people.

The sensitivity of the driver I believe is around 95% which is extremely important for the mid bass slam. Some subs can deliver good extension or mid bass slam but, not both. The Berhinger is a decent amp for subwoofer use but has a learning curve. It can be easily setup wrong which will affect the subs performance. I love these subs with music and HT!

My outsider's perspective on Chase owners? They seem to be mostly DIYers with a lot of technical knowledge, who aren't thrown by gimmicks and marketing. They're helpful, enthusiastic and friendly to new people. Tellingly, they don't seem to get involved in fanboy battles (I myself am guilty of this!)

No joke, when known Chase owners speak, I listen.
post #565 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

MCACC standing wave function will target 3 frequencies, adjust the Q or bandwidth and set the attenuation or gain at those frequencies down to 63 Hz. That is exactly what a parametric eq. will do. The other things MCACC does is adjust for peaks and dips below 63 Hz at the 2nd or 3rd harmonic which is what is heard. This mean that I don't need REW or graphs to correct things under 63 Hz in my room. MCACC is an excellent room correction program IMHO. The 5 db boost in my system at 20 Hz is done with the Berhinger I Nuke 3000 DSP which has PEQ and DEQ.


How do you know that your frequency response is good if you haven't seen the response on a graph?

I also have MCACC (Pioneer Elite) and am not as big of a fan. I have an omnimic and haven't seen that mcacc helps with anything with the bass so I gave up on using mcacc a long time ago because the eq function is terrible.

You do have me curious though, I think I'll try just using the standing wave function and do a before and after omnimic sweep and see if it helps. I have so many subs, so my frequency response is already very good from 60hz and below at my main seat, but other seats could be improved.
post #566 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

One thing that I have noticed on avs is that the Chase sub people don't seem to be in search for a better sub. Some of the other brands get more discussion possibly because an 18 in. sub is not doable for most people.

Just like any other brand I'm sure plenty of people have owned Chase subs and moved on (I know of a few). That doesn't mean it's necessarily a slight against the sub they are moving from though, I used to have Captivators and then Submersives and I moved on. Not because I didn't love those subs, I just wanted to try something different. I'm not in the same category as MK when it comes to trying out new gear, but I do have a touch of his disease. biggrin.gif
post #567 of 830
Carp it is not a disease, it is a curiosity for me. When something gets hyped so much and people love them I have to see what all the fuss is about. This is why I have owned many different subs including JTR and chase. I have tried many different alignments for myself being folded horn, tapped horn, ported, LLT, sealed(dual opposed, inverted) and now building IB. Progress is nice! I do have to say that once you reach a certain level everything is a lateral move!
post #568 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Carp it is not a disease, it is a curiosity for me. When something gets hyped so much and people love them I have to see what all the fuss is about. This is why I have owned many different subs including JTR and chase. I have tried many different alignments for myself being folded horn, tapped horn, ported, LLT, sealed(dual opposed, inverted) and now building IB. Progress is nice! I do have to say that once you reach a certain level everything is a lateral move!


I hear you and agree about it all being about curiosity. If I had the funds I would have so much friggin gear in my house right now!!! Fortunately I have been lucky enough to attend a butt-load of GTG's in the last 3 years and quite a few in my own house.

Still even with that.. there is so many speakers (including yours) and subs I want to hear including all these newer SOES designs.
post #569 of 830
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaviorMachine View Post

My outsider's perspective on Chase owners? They seem to be mostly DIYers with a lot of technical knowledge, who aren't thrown by gimmicks and marketing.

Actually, I think the only reason I ended up being a Chase owner was because I was thrown by gimmicks and marketing.

Their sealed 18 line was advertised as 23Hz -200Hz +/-3dB, and it all started with this graph:

I've overlaid a +/-3dB window, and provided the rough bottom points as they land in this window.



Here's the current (as of last week) explanation for this graph:

"That was based on a computer model almost a year before we had the first SS series subwoofer built. A look at my actual words were "with the LT circuit built in", which was what we had hoped for with the original Dayton amp. That strong an eq curve never ended up happening."

Yet in 2011, after the second series of this line of subs had already been released, that same exact yellow (simulated) line was presented with this explanation:

"Here is the sim of the response curve with bass boost on."

Yes, it was presented that the 23-24Hz bottom end (-6dB point) was achieved using the Dayton SA1000 and it's "Bass Boost" switch set to the "ON" position.

Of course, to anyone with a little "technical knowledge" you'd realize that a true LT circuit, even modeled in WinISD will never have a weird hump in it's response. A PEQ boost can only explain that hump.

So if you look at the white line provided in the sim as the naked response and compare that to the yellow line which is presented as "Bass Boost ON" with the Dayton amp, you start to scratch your head.

The "Bass Boost" switch on the Dayton amp applies a 3dB boost centered at 25Hz with Q=1.4. But do this mentally, and you can see the white line will never become the yellow line. What happened? Well, it was fudged. The top end was lopped off with a LPF to cut down on the roll-off, and then the PEQ boost was applied to the simulation. Compare the roll-off of the top end of the white line to the yellow line. You can see this pattern in other measurements provided by Chase over the years- LPF applied to the top end to mask the significant roll-off.

Proving this as more than speculation of course, is this close-mic measurement comparing the naked response of a sealed Chase 18 to one with the "bass boost" switch enabled, resulting in (as expected) roughly +3dB @ 25Hz Q=1.4 on spec, and giving us a -6dB point of 36Hz.



Nowhere near 23Hz.

Do you think nearly as many sealed 18 subs would have been sold if the spec was 36-200Hz +/-3dB with EQ? Of course not, nearly all HT sealed subs target a low 20's -6dB point.

The original specification, whether intentionally or not, was derived from a fudged WinISD simulation!

You can still find remnants of this errant specification on their current website, for example the SS-18.1 product page:

"The SS-18.1 has a response curve of +/- 3 dB from 23 Hz to 200 Hz with a natural, 12dB per octave roll-off below 23 Hz to match room gain."

It remained this way until some point in the last year, where you can now find a silent change to the specification on the website:

"21Hz – 100Hz +/- 5 dB (Using the Dayton Amp and the bass boost switch is ON)"

So instead of owning up to a misleading specification and giving everyone an explanation for the revision, they silently change the spec closer toward reality, yet realize they still must have a low 20's number to compete with other sealed lines. So they decide that most folks will probably see that 21Hz number and miss the fact that they have a very unusual +/-5dB rating.

We've now moved from 23Hz being -6dB to 21Hz being -10dB! (As you can see from the close-mic I posted, the bass boost for the Dayton will not even provide this response either, it's -15dB down at 21Hz!)

To further compound this misleading mess, we have a new 2013 explanation from Chase for those original specs:

" I have always specified the unit as +/- 5 dB from 21 to 100 Hz. That was the specification noted in the specifications section of the subwoofer. There was no "silent change" made."

"I DID NOT write the 23 Hz spec. It really is that simple."

Well, we already know from the facts presented that this isn't the case, 23Hz was the spec for a long time, but here is a very clear quote from Chase Home Theater that shows how false those statements really are:

"Now, let's look at our specs. We have told people from day one to expect a 3 dB down point at 23 Hz with the Dayton bass boost employed, and a 12 dB per octave roll off below that point."

There's good reason why other subwoofers get more discussion here. This is just one of many.
post #570 of 830
The Dayton Amp's "bass boost" is more of a full frequency gain boost than a PEQ centered at 25hz in my testing.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012/330#post_21515107



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