New Mach 5 Audio IXL info - Page 11

Sure, and some define it as 10% distortion. But without Klippel/Dumax testing the assumption of linear transfer function is not valid.


Nor do I, but that wasn't my point.

What assumption?

Nobody says it's a straight line from 100% to 70%.

Krypto's.


Nor did I. Note the expression 'transfer function' and my original comment which clearly states that in the absence or actual measurement, one cannot assume any linearity.

Which should be the only way of measurement, found with Klippel

sounds to me like it isa a more linear motor than the Mael X then, whether he uses any "special" type of coil/gap tech

I agree 100%

I'm no expert but I would think XBL^2, split gap/coil, lms, etc motor topology.... would contribute an order of magnitude more to the linearity of a motor than the shorting rings. Don't shorting rings just help to damp the back emf of the coil moving through the gap?

Also, why would one assume this driver to be more linear than the MalX?

the MX is 32mm, this driver is 34mm

Some people like to assume first and take measurements later

2 more milimeters of rated Xmax does not equal 'more linear'.

It's been pointed out that for a conventional and XBL motor both being driven to xmax, the former will likely sound better because while the XBL will be very linear until about 2/3 of xmax, there is a sharp falloff in the BL curve after that.

then what does?


yep... the XBL motors fall off faster after Xmax than conventional, Dan himself stated that in what... 02'? 03'?

Oh I dunno... a good Dumax/Klippel report is a good start.

Is there one for the Maelstrom-X? If so would you post a link? Any word from Mark if they will be sending a Mach off for testing?

I have no idea. I don't really keep up with the testing of these drivers. They are rarely done and of the drivers most of us are usually talking about. That being said, nobody will ever own a Mal-X again. Nobody seems to own any of the Pi-18's either. The ones that might have got one are curiously quiet. Not that I have looked very hard though.

I've been too busy not doing anything.

Oh, and btw, mega congrats to you Jordan.

Thats the second time I heard congrats... how come? I didn't have a kid or anything... in fact, Brandy and I broke up a while back... part of my absence on line

I'll have to search out that survive/fail thread for the Vegas buy out. Whats new on your huge surround project... do you have a build log or thread about it as to not hijack here?

So why don't the actual manufacturers do all these tests then?

After all are these people not the experts and shouldn't we trust them to not sell us something which is not what they spec it to be.

Surely the average joe models their subs based on parameters supplied. Yes I understand that these are not 100% accurate but most people can only go by these as a guide. And all the subs I have modelled in winisd come out pretty close to modelling. It's easy to test what distortion you are running at what frequency but most off us don't bother.

I have to say even with my drivers running hard I wouldn't be able to tell if they are distorting unless they aren't that much. But can the human ear actually hear 10% plus distortion with low frequencies.

It seems to me on this forum unless its a LMS driver they all seem to get over critised in some way or another which then makes people they are not as good a driver as first thought, i.e PI18.

I understand that alot off you guys are really knowledgable and it's great having people like that on here because that is what you need but I think you can go overboard sometimes.

Its not a negative comment but an observation.

Thank you Graham, you said what I've wanted to say for a long time. People get too critical... if you can hear the difference between driver A at 40mm with an Xmax of 15mm ( 25mm beyond it's 70%BL) and driver B at 40mm with an Xmax of 34mm ( 6mm past Xmax) good for you... but I am going to guess the PI is better than the Maelstrom-X, and, that I probably couldn't tell the difference between an IB3, Maelstrom-X, Fi Q, LMS Ultra, or PI if they were all in the same alignment.

IMHO the PI is better than the Maelstrom, it has 2mm more Xmax and inductance rings as well as the MX

I got my smith and Larsen woofer tester pro so I will be doing small and large param tests and post results.

No klippel but close enough.


Matt

Jordan,

You know me mate, I say it how it is.

Graham

Although Im newer here, I have seen my fair share of gripes over the LMS as well. With some showing up with bent gaps or whatever, and now the Mach5's showing up the same, or with similar type damages from shipping. I think the truth is, there are more builds in the uber sub category utilizing LMS, and they have been around longer, so there is a slightly better taste in people's mouths about them. All the other Co's offering 18-21" long throw drivers have gone under...and now some new options are coming out. The problem here is no one knows enough yet about some of these drivers, and UPS?FEDEX damage on most of the units that do arrive are certainly not giving folks a good first impression.

I agree 100% on the manu's giving us better numbers to begin with, instead of making someone take the plunge and do it themselves. If I had the ability, I still would, but for now, I hope someone else is willing to that IS capable so i can order my 4 Pi18's and get started on the new build!


I hope this changes soon too

You're posting an opinion of a driver you have never heard based on an xmax rating difference of 2mm that hasn't even been confirmed or denied since nobody has a working driver. Can I Tell you how absurd this is? Have you actually even heard a maelstrom-x 18 as well or is this whole one driver better than the other based in an armchair fantasy world?

I would say the PI18 is better than the malx in the fact that the malx doesn't even exist anymore. The PI18 is a better improved version off the IXL 18. I don't see a new and improved malx any where.

Your happy to slag off driver like FI, Mach Audio etc.. because it isn't a LMS and yet the PI18 is less than half the price off a LMS. And the Q18 is a 1/3 off the price of a LMS.

I don't think anyone would not be more than 100% happy with a couple off PI18's in their living rooms or even Q18's for that matter.

I don't think when you compare diy subs like FI, dayton and mach audio etc... each and everyone wipes the floor with any commercial subs out there.

Whether the driver has been fully measured or not, you model it in winisd, build it and enjoy it.

Are you disputing the t/s parameters of every driver specs out there that all manufacturers quote.
Perhaps you should start building your own drivers then.

This conversation should be sqaushed completely until the Pi18 can be tested properly, and/or implemented with good results. The Pi18 on paper so far seems like a GREAT driver for the $$, if only people were getting them in good shape via whoever is delivering them, we might now a LOT more now than we do.

You are completely missing the entire point of my post. I have not said one bad thing about the PI18, as I have not heard the driver or seen any valid testing results. I have however compared a malx to an LMS and can say the LMS wins. I was fortunate enough to compare them in the same environment, with the same electronics, and same enclosures. How many others have done the same? This is my point. He is comparing two drivers that he hasn't heard and declaring one better than the other simply because one was reported to have 2mm more excursion.

While I agree with you on the availability standpoint of these drivers, that the maelx will never be produced again, there is still the problem that an intact PI18 has yet to make it into someones hands.

Furthermore, the last time that I checked, Maelstrom drivers did not vanish from this plane of existence, however they are no longer being produced. Your comparison also falls short when trying to say one driver is better because its an improvement on a previous design. I'm sure the new KIA's are an improvement on last years model, but would you buy one over a BMW? (don't read too deeply into the brand comparison there, I was only making a point regarding the original statement, and not the quality of any of the drivers)

All your post has done is further illustrate the lack of logic in the armchair fanboy club, which in my opinion, is no good for anyone. This is supposed to be a science forum, where we compare actual data and impressions on drivers, and not form baseless opinions on things without having any evidence one way or the other.

Now we're talkin!


This world could use a lot more O that eh?


Hmmm, that makes sense too!

I love how you always "catch on" to my point, not knowing you're catching on

I'll repeat: Even if I did have 50 woofers in front of me, behind a black curtain, and a blindfold over my eyes, I wouldn't know an LMS from an SSD, I wouldn't know a Maelstrom-X from a PI, I wouldn't know an RL-p from a Funkypup. I wouldn't know a Sony Xploded from an Avalanche... I am not that critical, so even if I DID hear them all, I still wouldn't know them from my ass.

So if Maelstrom-X's really are 32mm Xmax with good inductance control (that I wouldn't notice if it didn't have shorting rings and whatever else what not it has) and PI's really are 34mm Xmax (with special non metallic formers to prevent eddy currents and inductance rings to do whatever it is those things do) I STILL WOULDN'T NOTICE OR KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A MAELSTROM-X AND A PI IF I HEARD THEM BOTH!! So I am oversimplifying the "which is more linear" fiasco here and say "well the PI is more linear than the maelstrom, 2mm more" and I stand by that.. having never heard either and probably never ever will

Again I say, there was an argument here or a question or a debate before I got here asking if the PI uses a linear motor and it was called into question if it was as linear as an MX because an MX uses XBL^2. I have been trying my bestest to say "well, scientifically speaking, linearity is ""best"" described via Xmax, and in that point of view the PI is said to have more ((not how much more being the point)) Xmax therefore the PI should be more linear ((mo-betta)) than the MX" Keeping in mind that Xmax is possibly the biggest factor but certainly not the only factor, such as suspension linearity, inductance, inductance rings, non metallic eddy current jazz.... NON-XBL^2 being "more linear" beyond Xmax, so IF the PI is NOT XBL^2 and DOES have *only* 2 more mm, then not only does it have 2 more mm of Xmax, but after it's Xmax is surpassed maybe it also maintains it's linearity (BL linearity) more than the MX does after it falls off 2mm earlier...


UGH SIGH

Wouldn't linearity be better defined as bl(x) being .... linear? Either way, declaring one driver 'better' based on 2mm of xmax is what you did. It is absurd no matter how you justify it.

Anyway, enough thread pollution.