The Official Panasonic HDC-TM900 Owners Thread - Page 9

Well no date on the Canon XA10 and for the money the HF G10 costs I'll take the xlr inputs for a few more $$ thank you. I really like the bright light video on the TM900, it's really good. I might return the TM900 and buy a TM750 and then get the XA10 when it's released. My wife figures we might be better with 2 camcorders than one super expensive one like the XF100. Still, it's $3k either way. She likes the ease of use on the TM900, it's super easy for her to use.
It looks great when it's bright but when the light goes down put it away or get more lighting, not easy to do in some places.

So far no beeps or crickets in my audio. If you don't shut it off but close the lcd screen you will hear a beep when it shuts off. I can't hear the fan either unless I put my ear up to it. No bondi blue skies except sometimes when I first point it at the sky.

I hope the Canon is a dream come true in low light.
Tradeoffs seem to be this way to me.

Panasonic TM900 = poor low light capability, great video with a lot of light
Sony CX560/CX700 = slow autofocus in any conditions, really good in low light
Canon HH G10/XA10 = Better balanced in bright and low light, not as good as the Panny in bright light but probably better than the Sony in low light.
Real manual controls.

Hmmm...

Ok here are the last 2 videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wo3kwWOQPA


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBjrZBovwkA

Steve, the other thing the Canon offers (and so does Sony) is a much nicer wide angle coverage. When using the Sony for example, side by side with the 900, you really appreciate the greater vista that can be brought in with a wider angle lens like on the Sony or Canon. For scenery and many other shots where you'd like to get as much in as possible (like an indoor shot of people), it's a great feature.

The HF-G10 will offer that kind of WA.

I'm now thinking of going with the TM900 (I recently sold my tm700) and using that for outdoors stuff, and also buying the new JVC GZ hm860 (it's only $760 i think on BH) and using that for nightclub recording

My wife and I are both very impressed with the bright light footage of the TM900. Yes, it's low light isn't very good but outside it's amazing.
Canon might be better in low light no idea about bright light but CCI says the TM900 is better in bright light. It's a tough call as we tend to do 50-60% indoors but this TM900 doesn't have the issues that seem to plaque other TM900's.
The wide angle is good enough for me. It's all tradeoffs no matter how you look at it. too bad I didn't get this from Costco. I could use it for 3 months and then return it.
Battery costs are expensive and unavailable for the TM900.
I might buy the Sony 560 as well and test them both in various conditions but I think I'd still prefer a Canon.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is still shots. The TM900 is good but but my older Canon 870is 10MP is much better.
I want a Canon S95 or the new Canon 4000 but I can't have both a camcorder and a new still camera.

Yeah I'm thinking similarly that a good all round camera isn't going to happen. TM900 is not beatable in bright light but useless in low light.
Maybe 2 camcorders are the answer.

Steve, you are being ridiculous man. It is far from useless. Other larger single sensors may beat it in low light, true, but the 700 was pretty much considered the best ever in consumer cams, or very close behind the best by even the most avid fans of other camcorders, just a couple of months ago. It is far from useless just because another can do it a bit better. I have captured many fantastic videos in very low light from my sd600, from aquariums, indoor at night, outside in the yard, parking lots, to restaurants.

That type of statement is just going way off the deep end man.

Of course, it is not the only such statement in this thread. There are way too many broad generalizing statements, people saying there is no bondi-blue issue, saying that all bondi-blue issues are due to overexposure (this may have been a previous therad), or saying that the bondi-blue issue a huge deal (it generally is not)...Such statements are all counterproductive and nothing more than distortions of reality.

Dont jump on it just yet man.

http://camcorder.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=171&page=10


# 29.5mm Wide Angle
# Super LoLux with 1/4.1-inch 3.32M Back-illuminated CMOS Sensor

http://camcorder.jvc.com/product.jsp...Id=171&page=14



GZ-HM860

Image Sensor 1/2.3" 10.6M CMOS(Back-illuminated)

After reading more, I am going to bet you are right and they may well dominate low light. The only potential problem being that they crammed it with pixels, giving a potential edge to Canon, but the sensor is also bigger, with f1.2, and people should be talking about them more.

Also of note, the Canon films in 30p and then formats it in 60i. I do not see any mention of the JVC filming anything other than 60i, though I do not see anything mentioned specifically actually.

EDIT: the auto rec when movement enters the frame is pretty cool though. If it is 1/2.3 inches why the heck arent people talking about it here? Everybody is focusing on low light....should come up, lol.

This is why I started the Steel Cage Match Comparison Thread.

For my purposes the low light is not good enough IMO. It is a great bright light camera but it loves light and it's not the only camera that does.
Granted I have only tested it since Friday and I love teh camera, i just don't care for it's low light compared to the Sony.

I'd rather debate this stuff in the new thread tho.

Oh and I have no Bondi blue issues with my TM900 nor does it beep any more. Other cams seem to have these issues to one degree or another.
Why jump on me about Bondi blue? it's not an issue to me. If it was I'd return teh camera poste haste. I also never said it didn't exist.

Sorry to sound like I was jumping on you about the bondi-blue. That segment wasnt meant for you, it was one of these fellows, in a previous thread, that pulled one of my videos and talked about overexposure during a segment and generalized the whole bondi-blue issue as summed up based on that. I took the time to pull the the actual color values of the sections of video I had taken still frames from earlier in the thread, and there was no response...which was disappointing. Then the same ideas as were touted in that thread were being used as the explanation here (or the 560 thread the two are running together) and it got a bit under my skin. That simply is not the reality, though can be if the shutter is locked and the iris adjusted, obviously.

Also, I am a bit stressed out these days what with unemployment looming ahead soon and having been asked to resign after crap that had nothing to do with me, but knowing that I can not ever defend myself to people without sounding like I am bitter and dont want to admit error...very frustrating. Sorry man.

Hey, I've been there, I've made my share of mistakes on here and other places myself, many times. Life goes on tho.
The 2 threads running together is why I created that other thread. I hope none of the humor impaired take it the wrong way.

Comparisons are very common when new camcorders come out. Then it dies down a bit until the next year.

The bondi blue issue is probably as someone suggested that the camera runs out of blue and starts adding green to fill it. Myself I don't know but that sounds reasonable.

No question the PS3 craps out once it hits a high bit rate. Now I need to buy a new Blu-ray player that won't crash at about 40Mbps. It's affected by motion as well as low light or even medium panning in low light. I zoomed in on some pasta in low light and Bam! it crashed down to 8Mbps.

More money to spend.

I hope you work out your job situation. I'm in manufacturing so you know where that road is headed.
It's tough to start anew nowadays but if you're young enough you can do it.

Here's a comparison video of the TM900 and 7D.
http://vimeo.com/21277183

It seems the in thing to change cams very often when will it end
a TM900 7D test seems pointless,the GH2 is supposed to be be top notch DSLR
how does it compare with the 900,a comparison would have been more interesting than a 7D.

Did you get a chance to try the standard OIS? I'm hoping the bluring only happens in Hybrid mode.

Steve, I'll give you $700.00 for the Cam, and I think you will be happy once it is gone from your eye site. Buyers remorse sucks I know because years ago I always buy the newest and latest model thinking it will be SOOOOO Much Better than the previous models, NOT TRUE. I can (APPRECIATE YOUR OPINION) Steve, But I think we get (your opinion) on this matter of Low Light TM900 versus cx560 slow focus which has been easily fixed by FW updates from Sony in regards to there digital cameras. I personally disagree with you and alot of what is being said by several members in regards to the Sony cx560, simply you have not had enough time to (Validly Test) the 560 from reading all of the recent posts. steve my suggestion would be to either buy one test it thoroughly in (CONTROLLED CONDITION) and get back to us on the real sound findings and most importantly how you tested the two Cams. My experience in the past tells me that the every day shooting situations are always changing and different. So you always need to adjust, be it what the TM900 can handle and what is exceptable to you. I'm simply saying that we have beaten this dead horse to a pulp and I'm looking to hear about the other capability's of the TM900 that have not been discussed hear , such as sound and all the other functions that make the TM900 a very capable Cam. So what other features other than the beep's and low light issues you have, do you like?

chris m

Yes I did, but on this go around I got little blurring in either the hybrid mode or the non-hybrid mode. Of course this is a different camera than I originally had, so who knows what's going on? There always seems to be a surprise in store. I thought the beep was much better than my 1st one, but then I heard a couple of clips that were every bit as bad as the first.

At B&H as of now. Not cheap.

I couldn't find it on your previous posts, but how frequent is your beep? I just did a quick 2 min video and couldn't hear anything. There was a rather splashy 17mth old, so that might have hidden something

For what it's worth:

http://www.trustedreviews.com/camcor...c-HDC-TM900/p1

"...the TM900 takes over from its predecessor as our videomaking enthusiast camcorder of choice."

and an earlier one, says same thing:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/camco...onic-hdc-tm900

No beeps.

6 consumer reviews on Amazon,

No beeps.

You're more likely to hear it in quiet environments and for whatever reason, I don't hear it during every clip. But the sound is unmistakable, exactly like a heart monitor.

They're also unanimous in reporting no change in picture quality from either a sharpness or color standpoint. So despite Panasonic's claims, no one has seen an improvement in low light. Based on what I've seen, I'd agree. Outdoor quality remains superb, but indoor quality remains the weak point.

As to why they haven't reported an issue with beeps, who knows? Perhaps it wasn't tested in a quiet environment? One thing is for sure, the beeps are there and my posted video shows that quite clearly...or should I say audibly. We've had others on AVS report the beeps and I've personally had two with them.

Keep in mind that not one single professional reviewer last year mentioned the bondi-blue issue. Tell that to the many people that complained about that last year. Almost no reviewers mentioned the fan noise. Tell that to the many people that complained about that. Although I had fan noise in very quiet environments, I never found it bothersome and it was nothing like the beeps.

So it does seem that reviewers miss things that others have found. Perhaps they simply don't have these cameras long enough or don't test them in environments where some of these issues arise. Perhaps they don't play it back through a good quality home theater. Perhaps they did have one that didn't beep. Who knows?

With that said, I've yet to find a better camera. I had hopes that the Sony with its great low light would not give up too much in good light to the Panasonic. That wasn't the case and I wasn't willing to sacrifice the outdoor quality of the 900 to get the low light of the Sony.

The search continues.

Mark, one thing I've noticed (and of course no reviewer has mentioned this either), is the aliasing in the 900's VF (particularly noticeable when you pan). If you recall, I was initially wowed by the larger size LCD (still am) and the larger VF relative to the 700. However, it's hard to miss the aliasing in the 900's VF and it does detract somewhat from the improvement of the larger size. I guess I'd still take the larger VF, but it is odd that this artifact has been introduced.

I know this is not a defect in my sample since both had the issue to the same degree. How are you finding it?

No one doubts your cameras beep or that some samples do. The issue is how common is this. All we can do is see if there are other indications. Bondi blue was not a defective camera, it was supposed to be a design flaw - all TM700 cameras had it, no? I really think we need to better distinguish a defect from a design flaw or shortcoming (like no manual iris and shutter or audio or inability to hold autofocus while zooming as on cameras we will not name).

I can positively, absolutely without questions, and no reservations, tell everyone the two TM900's I had and have used extensively have and had NO beeps. Ever. Period. I checked given Ken's experience.

I do think it is a good idea to check this out when getting a new TM900. There is no indication the beeping comes after extensive use - if it's defective in this way, it beeps right away. Test by shooting in a silent room using defaults (auto audio). If you do not hear any beeps, as described by Ken, you are fine.

Many of the user reviews were checking fan noise - surely if they heard that they would hear the beeps. They did not. I agree that the pro reviewers may not have checking for this.

Chris while I have been really feeling like crap, very bad flu and hi-temp for days. I really don't get you. You act like you are a pro, but from what I can see you aren't. When people need advice you don't actually know anything so you tell then to call customer/tech support.
I honestly don't see you posting anything but twaddle on here.
I'm fully entitled to my opinion and if you don't like it put me on ignore.
When you start posting actual uselful info that will be something, but you just like to take teh piss and to be honest I've had enough, this damn fever doesn't make me feel a bit better about it.
Ignore people if you can't post something constructive. Yes you can have an opinion but your opinions are just that everyone else but you is wrong. I know the Canon XA10 forum is empty and boring right now, but stirring the pot in here is just trolling.
So when you actually post real videos, real specs that are related to the subject. You don't own a TM900, nor will you buy one, so why dig into people for discussing their likes and dislikes of something they damn well do own?! I know you will just go on a meaningless diatribe, so I already put you on ignore. I know you won't care, that's ok. If you ever decide to help people in this forum and post videos and useful help and tips and opinions on something you actually own and stop the BS, I'll take you off, until then I consider you a troll.


@Ken Ross
I won't be posting for a few days until I get better but I did send the TM900 back to Amazon for a refund. The poor low light just made it a no go for me. I will wait to see what Canon does even if it's in 6 months or next year.

So Mark, here's the question: If we are to assume that all 700s had the bondi-blue issue and no improvements have been made to PQ according to all that have reviewed the camera thus far, are we then to assume (logically) that all 900s potentially have this issue too?

This is aliasing that does not show up in the video, right?

I have also found this on many small LCD screens, which I thought arose from trying to reproduce HD video on relatively low resolution screens.

Interestingly, I find myself almost exclusively using the VF, since most of my experience has been in very bright conditions. When I use the big lcd it is for trick shots, like camera positions near the ground, and for that I can't see detail (in bright light) anyway. The LCD or vf do not seem to be reliable for checking exposure (they want to be bright no matter what it seems), so I use the histogram and zebra, which work well. And for focus I use the color fringing.

Yup. No aliasing at all in the actual video, just the VF. Like you, I use the VF almost exclusively since you can't do anything of a critical nature with the LCD in sunlight. The LCD though is great for the odd angle shots. But I never saw this aliasing in the 700's VF. I'm not sure if that was due to the smaller size covering up the aliasing or if something else had changed.

The focus assist (color fringing) is a nice feature to have as are the zebras.

"So Mark, here's the question: If we are to assume that all 700s had the bondi-blue issue and no improvements have been made to PQ according to all that have reviewed the camera thus far, are we then to assume (logically) that all 900s potentially have this issue too?"

I know nothing about the bondi blue issue. I have not seen it in my samples, and many users of the TM900 claim it is gone (obviously these ones do know about it). I have videos with extensive blue sky, and in none is the sky greenish or, most importantly, different than I remember. And I was always using auto wb outdoors.

When they say pq is the same, that is very vague, as you know. PQ covers a whole lot of specs, and I doubt these reviewers checked out every one of them, including this one, if there is an issue.

They did conclude that the TM900 picture was the best of any consumer camcorder they had ever tested. Period. No hedging.

They concluded that for the TM700 too, so by logical inference they know nothing about bondi blue or they don't think it important. So, no, we cannot conclude anything about bondi blue from these new reviews. The reviews that do consider bondi blue say it no longer exists and I have no evidence of it being a problem from my use.

So, no bondi blue and no beeps. Terrific videos, complete manual controls that work, reliable autofocus. Clearly a great choice over the available options. The vaporware canon could be better, but I need to take videos now, not wait around hoping that something is better (I did like the Canon in theory).

Here's an idea for an OIS test.

Standing on a street with cars traveling at roughly 30mph do a full 12x optical zoom on a car way down the street. As the car approaches smoothly zoom out so the camera is 100% wide angle when the car is directly across from the TM900 and then smoothly zoom back in as the car travels away.

If we can get this for both STANDARD and HYBRID OIS we should have a great comparison of a real world Pan and Zoom scenario. The TM900 should be hand held for this test.

thats fine, probably could have sent him a private message on the matter. On the flipside, should be getting my TM900 next week. Can't wait!