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Canon HF G10, XA10, XF100, XF105 Owners Thread - Page 72

post #2131 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Ken,

I noticed the same thing after watching the link you posted. I wonder if he mixed up his footage?

There is a clear difference between the two cameras in these two shots, a lot more sharpness in the background with the buildings (XA10) along with overall clarity in the first one really caught my eye. In the second shot the XF105 looks looks sharper with more detail.......mmmm....this makes me think he mixed up his clips.

The difference is easier to see if you can go full screen on your monitor with these two photos. Harder to see for some at the size I posted.



Yeah, these would be the two scenes I was commenting on. While most of the other comparison's look about the same to me, these two in particular look nicer on the XA10. XA10 seemed to pickup the color of the sunset also. Strange.
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post #2132 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:21am
And if some don't see anything in my clip, count yourself lucky but this is hardly a "myth". One thing I am noticing is that when fully wide, the area around 10% into the frame as the typical slight curvature of a wide angle lens like on my cx550. What's interesting with this lens is that the wider out you go, those image straightens out. This makes the image look more accurate when holding the camera still or when locked off but when you walk or pan quickly you notice the image going from slightly bent to straight at the edge of the frame. So this coupled with the dynamic IS mode doing whatever it's doing is probably causing the effect.
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post #2133 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:36am
ohhhhhh ( say that Homer style ) ..... Canon p0rn in the morning, nice !!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ok. Ups just dropped her off! Luckily the wife is out No manufacturer seal on box though. Anyone else have that?

Edit: seems fine. Definitely not been handled. Charging now. She's a beauty.
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post #2134 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

And if some don't see anything in my clip, count yourself lucky but this is hardly a "myth". One thing I am noticing is that when fully wide, the area around 10% into the frame as the typical slight curvature of a wide angle lens like on my cx550. What's interesting with this lens is that the wider out you go, those image straightens out. This makes the image look more accurate when holding the camera still or when locked off but when you walk or pan quickly you notice the image going from slightly bent to straight at the edge of the frame. So this coupled with the dynamic IS mode doing whatever it's doing is probably causing the effect.

Sounds like canon tweaked it to correct for an almost fish eye effect at full wide angle and as you walk and the camera wobbles a little it's going from straight to angle a little bit on the edges causing the distortion. Sounds like your on to the real cause here Dave so maybe a firmware upgrade or software fix could fix it if Canon fixes the issue.
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post #2135 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:39am
Dave, I sent my G10 into Canon so they can look into the issue. While I agree with your assessment, I want them to really look into the problem. For me, even when stationary, that effect caused a decent warping during fast pans. It ended up making me nauseous. The camera is there now, but my findings would probably be bolstered by a call into them by any others who see the same thing.

The good thing is that we have figured out when it happens for all, and that should make it easier for Canon to correct the problem, whatever it is. I recently filmed some soccer games and a bit more basketball with a TM900, and I missed the wide angle of the HFG10.
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post #2136 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilfurbal View Post

Yeah, these would be the two scenes I was commenting on. While most of the other comparison's look about the same to me, these two in particular look nicer on the XA10. XA10 seemed to pickup the color of the sunset also. Strange.

It's hard to tell which is really better, would have loved to know what the person that took it felt was more like what they saw as they did it and what settings, auto manual were they both set the same? I can't wait to test myself
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post #2137 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:52am
Gso, I think that is it. I'm playing with it here at work. If you shoot a straight line like say a lampost, it is totally straight when in the center and then it curves slightly as you pan, totally expected for this wide a lens but then as you get to the edge it straightens out again quite quickly. That rapid a visual shift when moving canngive the impression of the image pulsing Or breathing. The dynamic IS really accentuates this and makes it look unnatural. The lens is gonna be the lens and in the great majority won't be an issue and may even make the image more geometrically correct when the camera is held still. If a firmware fix can adjust the dynamic IS mode, that might help a lot.

For comparison here is a video I shot with the Sony cx550 which has a similar wide angle lens amount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfvsQuBdXg&sns=em

If you notice the trees or lightpoles bend slightly as they go past and out of frame. Which is normal behavior for a WA lens unless you go up to the several hundred it even thousand dollar range in dedicated lenses. On the canon, these lines straighten out at the very edge. I will shoot and upload mote later.


Also the grey white fringing you see at the bottom now and again in the above clip is from the polarizer I had on the Sony
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post #2138 of 4133
5/12/11 at 7:58am
ErLupo I agree. Mine is noticeable but nowhere near as bad as some of the earlier problematic clips. Some were very nausea inducing indeed.
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post #2139 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:07am
Lunchtime. Out to shoot in times square.
LL
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post #2140 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Lunchtime. Out to shoot in times square.

hey! i want that too! where can i get one?
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post #2141 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:09am
At 11am? Early lunch. Hope you're taking your girlfriend to a nice restaurant.
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post #2142 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gso125 View Post

Not much bigger than the xa10, there is a video that I watched and in the first seconds they show both the xa10 and xf100 next to each other not much different to worry about both very small for pro cameras. I'm not going to need any $300 cf cards when a $70 card is all I need for now, I will test the crap out of it when I get it but bh needs to refund my xa10 before if ships. The ps3 was awful after I bought one and I got two great br players that played my panny 900 butter smooth and hopefully they play the xf100 great to. Lots of testing coming up but if you get the xa10 steve you will be very happy with it. If the xf100 isn't what I want Im getting back the xa10.

The XF100 is a sweet camcorder but expen$ive. I did see that video and it is really odd that in some the XA10 looks better than the XF100.
CF cards are what I used way back in my older still cameras like 256MB in size. I don't know enough about the new CF cards yet to talk about them intelligently.
I'm going to try the Sony 580 and see how that works for me.
I need a USB port that can support an NTFS external HDD. The thing is I love the way the PS3 shows actual clips of each video on the drive. I'm going to miss that.
I can't justify the extra money for an XF100 but my wife and I both think if the next HF G10 comes in and exhibits jello then I will get an XA10 instead.
I'm looking forward to the tests of your XF100 when you get it in.
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post #2143 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:13am
Hi Dave,

I haven't looked at your footage yet, but you can't upload raw footage to youtube, in that, nobody can download it. No matter what you upload to Youtube, or Vimeo, it's converted by the time we see it.

Tape about a 20 second segment, then upload that file to an online storage website ( free ) like www.mediafire.com or www.megaupload.com that way we have access to the real-RAW footage.

Jello..... it belongs in a cup :-)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ugh, dammit.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have jello.
At least in full auto mode. Dynamic stabilization on. Not powered, just regular. Uploading raw file to youtube now. Will try again with just normal stabilization on.
Battery goes fast too. be back
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post #2144 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gso125 View Post

Those were my xa10 walking videos on Vimeo under my name Gerald O'Connor to me no jello some bouncing. I love the xa10 just could not talk wife into keeping both.lol


Yeah it looks like the XA10 is different enough that it has little if any jello.
So you are getting the XF100 instead over the XA10? It's certainly got the manual controls that I'd love to have but the cost is $3K that's a lot if you don't shoot professionally.
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post #2145 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:18am
Dave,

can you operate the HF G10 with the power adapter plugged in ?
I could do that with my Canon HV20. Just wondering. I'm hoping
yes is the answer.

also - what's that nifty hand-grip I see in your picture..... that's
nice !


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ugh, dammit.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have jello.
At least in full auto mode. Dynamic stabilization on. Not powered, just regular. Uploading raw file to youtube now. Will try again with just normal stabilization on.
Battery goes fast too. be back
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post #2146 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:23am
Zippo, yes you can.
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post #2147 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Ok so maybe we need to clarify the terms. When I said "jello" I was just using the common term we have kind of associated with it. I think Ken is more accurate when he says "distortion". In my clip the building on the right (at least to me) visibly pulses and grows and shrinks in size proportionately as I walk. Now this IS a VERY wide angle lens and some of that looks to be the lens itself. It doesn't look like the typical CMOS rolling shutter effect where straight lines bend when the camera is panned too quickly.

Whatever the effect actually is, some cams seem to have it worse than others. Steve's to me looks truly unwatchable. In all of ken's shots I only noticed it ONCE and it was when he was bumped.

Now the question is, are some cams fine tuned better than others? Or is the xa10 just better even with mostly identical guts? As people have noticed, we have never seen an xa10 clip showing anything nearly as pronounced as mine, Steve's or the other problematic ones.


As I said I really didn't see much jello in your clip more of a worbling effect and for me depending on how prononced that was in bright light I might be able to live with it. But mine was an ocean of jello.
The XA10's are less affected for certain. I haven't seen one truely bad XA10 and a little jello now and again is unavoidable as it's a CMOS chip.
But when the whole picture moves and wiggles and distorts that's unacceptable.
I do enough motion that I need a stable OIS and the XA10 looks like a winner but I'd rather pay less and have a few less features but the same PQ.
If I have to choose more money and no jello or live with the jello I'll pay more.
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post #2148 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:25am
"... you can't upload raw footage to youtube, in that, nobody can download it. No matter what you upload to Youtube, or Vimeo, it's converted by the time we see it."

The first sentence is mostly wrong and the second misleading.

1. You can upload raw videos to Youtube and Vimeo. You do not need to convert them first.

2. Vimeo: it is correct that the videos you see on Vimeo are converted. But, if you join Vimeo (free) you can download the (raw) original file that was uploaded in the first week after the upload.

So uploading the original video to Vimeo will be fine. We can see it and then if we are interested we can download it.
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post #2149 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:26am
at 50 seconds, 52 seconds, I see a street lamp on the right, it looks like the wind is moving it, - is this what you mean by jello ?

I don't know, I think you may be really really picky, I'm very picky, but you are moving, and if shooting in this mode was a must, you could go for one of those steady cam knockoffs. There was a nice one that was announced at CES a few weeks ago, I think I've seen ads for it on this website.


[quote=Dave Mack;20424678On the right side, the jello is VERY noticeable.[/QUOTE]
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post #2150 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Gso, I think that is it. I'm playing with it here at work. If you shoot a straight line like say a lampost, it is totally straight when in the center and then it curves slightly as you pan, totally expected for this wide a lens but then as you get to the edge it straightens out again quite quickly. That rapid a visual shift when moving canngive the impression of the image pulsing Or breathing. The dynamic IS really accentuates this and makes it look unnatural. The lens is gonna be the lens and in the great majority won't be an issue and may even make the image more geometrically correct when the camera is held still. If a firmware fix can adjust the dynamic IS mode, that might help a lot.

For comparison here is a video I shot with the Sony cx550 which has a similar wide angle lens amount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGfvsQuBdXg&sns=em

If you notice the trees or lightpoles bend slightly as they go past and out of frame. Which is normal behavior for a WA lens unless you go up to the several hundred it even thousand dollar range in dedicated lenses. On the canon, these lines straighten out at the very edge. I will shoot and upload mote later.


Also the grey white fringing you see at the bottom now and again in the above clip is from the polarizer I had on the Sony


This is what I was saying before it's the OIS coupled with the lens.
The weird thing is most XA10's don't have it at least not much from what videos I've seen. So there is something more going on here. I agree about the distortion on the edges, maybe the lens is just too wide? Dynamic is what you need for walking I'd think.
Anyway you describe it better than I did, and no one is beating you up for it either.
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post #2151 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:33am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigboygelo View Post

hey! i want that too! where can i get one?


Amazon.com has them here is a link. They have quite a few different models to choose from.

http://www.amazon.com/Opteka-HG-5-Ha...5214235&sr=1-3
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post #2152 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippo2008 View Post

Hi Dave,

I haven't looked at your footage yet, but you can't upload raw footage to youtube, in that, nobody can download it. No matter what you upload to Youtube, or Vimeo, it's converted by the time we see it.

Tape about a 20 second segment, then upload that file to an online storage website ( free ) like www.mediafire.com or www.megaupload.com that way we have access to the real-RAW footage.

Jello..... it belongs in a cup :-)


Vimeo allows downloading of Raw files.
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post #2153 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:35am
Don't compare the HF G10 to your 550D. 2 different beasts, and remember that the 550D is shooting at almost 2x the bitrate.... more info into each second of video.

at 25-35 seconds into the video, I never saw the trees "pulsate" like you said, never saw that, and played the video a number of times.

I think you gotta play with it, and shoot some day light video, shoot some video on a tripod, you are going to see that camcorder is awesome. I kind of don't think you are being fair to it with fast judgements in that first video, and yeah I can be the same way, you spend a crapload of money, and it's easy now to get cold feet, and pick at every little thing you think you *may* have seen.

If you want to be fair to that camcorder, you need to shoot that video on a steadicam, and then see. Dynamic IS I believe is constantly changing, so it is adjusting every second that you shoot, try different IS modes. I'm going to guess that after a few days, you will realize the camcorder is acting perfectly fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Thanks, Ken. I used full auto just so I could compare with the clips I shot last year with the 550 and true I virtually never shoot in full auto. Yeah in that clip I shot I was actually trying to hold it still so it does happen pretty easily in that mode I believe. What does seem weird is that it's really the right side it happens with. I do think the xa10 is a bit different. Same guts for the most part but probably a different firmware and since dynamic IS is an electronic function, perhaps there is a slight variance. Or maybe they just go a higher level of QC. since it is electronic in nature perhaps a firmware update could fix it. Maybe if enough g10 owner's complain to canon?
I am going to bring her to work with me today to do extensive tests.
Anyways yeah the PQ is truly excellent with the lowlight bring insane and should match my nx5u very well.

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post #2154 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:40am
any video you upload to youtube, is indeed converted. Upload a video, and 30 mins later, download it, it's a totally different file.

Vimeo, yup, try it, you can up a file, and download it, it will be slightly different from the original, I've tried that, and it's true. the kbye count is indeed diffeent from the video you upped.

plain and simple, if you want the original, just post it on a site like mediafire, or just ftp it to your own server and that's it that's all, pretty simple to me, and if I'm testing a file for somebody I would never test a file that went to any of those video "showing" websites. Anyone testing a file wants the real file, not one that has been modified even by a few kbyes.

I'm a purist I guess. Just give me the real file.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"... you can't upload raw footage to youtube, in that, nobody can download it. No matter what you upload to Youtube, or Vimeo, it's converted by the time we see it."

The first sentence is mostly wrong and the second misleading.

1. You can upload raw videos to Youtube and Vimeo. You do not need to convert them first.

2. Vimeo: it is correct that the videos you see on Vimeo are converted. But, if you join Vimeo (free) you can download the (raw) original file that was uploaded in the first week after the upload.

So uploading the original video to Vimeo will be fine. We can see it and then if we are interested we can download it.
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post #2155 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:43am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zippo2008 View Post

Don't compare the HF G10 to your 550D. 2 different beasts, and remember that the 550D is shooting at almost 2x the bitrate.... more info into each second of video.

at 25-35 seconds into the video, I never saw the trees "pulsate" like you said, never saw that, and played the video a number of times.

I think you gotta play with it, and shoot some day light video, shoot some video on a tripod, you are going to see that camcorder is awesome. I kind of don't think you are being fair to it with fast judgements in that first video, and yeah I can be the same way, you spend a crapload of money, and it's easy now to get cold feet, and pick at every little thing you think you *may* have seen.

If you want to be fair to that camcorder, you need to shoot that video on a steadicam, and then see. Dynamic IS I believe is constantly changing, so it is adjusting every second that you shoot, try different IS modes. I'm going to guess that after a few days, you will realize the camcorder is acting perfectly fine.


Zippo this is a well established probem and at least 4 forum members have had the same problem.
GarMan and myself were the first to notice it and here is a clip from my HF G10 that I returned. The problems vary from camera to camera. But we already have a jello thread and things got out of control.
no one is trying to justify or deny anything. It's a problem and yeah you can compare any high end cam to another as long as the price range is similar.
The Sony 550 was last years model and the HF G1o is new for this year.

Here is a link to my video see if you can find the massive flaws in it.

http://vimeo.com/22529938
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post #2156 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:50am
Ok. Just got back from lunch. Lots of activity while out.

The shooting grip is actually for my Sony and comes with a power cable to operate the zoom and record on and off
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post #2157 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

Yeah it looks like the XA10 is different enough that it has little if any jello.
So you are getting the XF100 instead over the XA10? It's certainly got the manual controls that I'd love to have but the cost is $3K that's a lot if you don't shoot professionally.

I have OCD (LOL) and like to have the best I can afford. Never thought I would want a pro camera but if the xf100 is better I can't wait.
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post #2158 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:55am
"Vimeo, yup, try it, you can up a file, and download it, it will be slightly different from the original, I've tried that, and it's true. the kbye count is indeed diffeent from the video you upped."

MediaInfo indicates no difference in raw files I have uploaded and downloaded to Vimeo (first week). They were certainly not transcoded or converted (maybe the wrapper is slightly, but undetectably, different). Everyone need not conform to a particular preference that has no consequence for judging quality.

The main problem with non-video file hosting sites is that you have no opprtunity to preview the video, so you have to download a big file you may end up not having an interest in.
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post #2159 of 4133
5/12/11 at 8:55am
Zippo the canon shoots at the same bitrate as the Sony cx550v which is what I was comparing it too. I don't own a 550d.
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post #2160 of 4133
5/12/11 at 9:04am
Can zooming in a bit solve the problem of "jello" in HF G10?
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