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Panasonic TM900 vs Sony CX560/700V vs Canon HF G10 Steel Cage Match Comparison Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 270
I have no misconception that camcorder will be in anytime soon, but I lost nothing by taking the chance. I don't think that it is completely out of the realm of possibility that a shipment was on its way prior to the earthquake/tsunami. If it drags on more then a week or two I will simply cancel the pre-order for a refund.

And you CAN put in pre-orders with several vendors still. Just because B&H cancelled theirs doesn't mean all the other vendors immediately does the same.
post #62 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichGS View Post

I have no misconception that camcorder will be in anytime soon, but I lost nothing by taking the chance. I don't think that it is completely out of the realm of possibility that a shipment was on its way prior to the earthquake/tsunami. If it drags on more then a week or two I will simply cancel the pre-order for a refund.

And you CAN put in pre-orders with several vendors still. Just because B&H cancelled theirs doesn't mean all the other vendors immediately does the same.

Canon has already made it clear that there won't be any of the AX10's or HFg10's available PERIOD, Nothing is currently scheduled for arrival in the USA as of now. I'm only trying to be informative, not facetious. And who ever is taking your money either has not been informed yet? or simply will collect interest on your money while you wait.

purplestinger
post #63 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by purplestinger View Post

Ken, can't you manually set and (LOCK) the WB on both Cam's that would alleviate any shift in WB, also check the cinematic options on the cx560 and set to off? if the white balance is shifting that much in auto then there is a serious problem with the Cam, especially if your shooting inside under the same constant lighting or outside in normal clear sky's or clouds, period. Its plainly a bad unit. Maybe Panasonics had some small Tremors at there Plant in Tokyo upsetting something during the development or assembly of these first batch units?

chris m

Chris, I've had this with both the 560 and the CX700. It appears to be endemic to the line. Sure you could lock in the WB, but I use the cams in a 'run & gun' approach and I don't want quality shooting to 'require' a MWB set each time I use the cam. To me that's just nuts and takes the fun & spontaneity out of shooting.

I fully expect to need MWB when shooting indoors under many conditions, but in bright, typical sunlight? No way, no how. And yes, you could use a preset, but that's not always the best approach either.
post #64 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErichGS View Post

This is the only so far that really annoys me about the Sony. I was almost content just to stick with the Sony, but after the shifty AWB showed up a couple of times I decided to put a pre-order in on the Canon. Hope that they show up sooner rather then later.

You see Erich, people think I'm crazy, anal or have a defective piece when I report these things and then invariably other owners find the same thing. I've been using camcorders for years and years and have had more HD cams than I care to admit. I know what the typical parameters are for good AWB performance. The Sony does not have it. I used to have several of the tiny TRV, non HD, series Sonys and had the same issues with them, although the TRV900 was better than most.
post #65 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

You see Erich, people think I'm crazy, anal or have a defective piece when I report these things and then invariably other owners find the same thing. I've been using camcorders for years and years and have had more HD cams than I care to admit. I know what the typical parameters are for good AWB performance. The Sony does not have it. I used to have several of the tiny TRV, non HD, series Sonys and had the same issues with them, although the TRV900 was better than most.

Ken you can not expect a whole lot from a consumer Cam when you say that you want to run and gun. Also I can not replicate your issues at all with regards to WB. You should know with all your experience you have, that there is a gross problem with the Sony Cam's that you purchased if the WB continues too behave in such away as you have just described in bright outside sun light. I just don't see it at all. Something isn't write hear. Also You should know, Ken we have already discussed this in previous posts that consumer camera's will not give you (all) of what your asking of them with out cutting into other issues. These are great Consumer Grade Cam's for 2011 that I believe perform as well or better than last years Cam's in the same category. I personally think your expectations are a bit too high for these models, and only hope you find what your looking for, but I kind of doubt that you will at this low price point. You mite have to wait several more years for all that your asking for?? I'm at a loss for words. But I do understand your needs! and truly hope that you will find a happy medium.

chris m
post #66 of 270
Chris, we shall agree to disagree.

I honestly don't think it's too much to expect a camera's AWB to behave in a stable, consistent manner when used in bright sunlight while panning...consumer cam or not. Most cams I've used in that manner maintain a perfectly stable AWB in exactly those conditions. My Panny 700 never exhibited that behavior, yet two different Sonys (560 &700) did. Another owner reports the same thing and trust me, there will be more.

Both the CX700 and 560 behaved exactly the same way, so I have no reason to believe I got 'unlucky'. I've noticed for many many years that some camera lines will show this type of behavior and, invariably, the worst offenders in my experience have been Sony.

I feel strongly that when we all give the manufacturer's a 'pass' by assuming 'well, it's a consumer camcorder, what can you expect', we give them license to make more crap.

Anyone that's used a number of camcorders over the years knows very well that a consumer camcorder can be made with a stable AWB. Sure, under many conditions they may drift, but NOT in bright sunlight under a cloudless sky.

Likewise, we know that a consumer camcorder can be made without the injection of a 'beep' embedded within the audio. Panasonic had this same issue in a very UNconsumer $15,000 camcorder.

Nope, if we accept this crap then we fully deserve the crap we get. There are reasonable and unreasonable expectations. Stable AWB under non-demanding conditions, audio without recurring beeps, proper auto focusing across the field of view are among what I consider to be 'reasonable' expectations. Some may disagree.
post #67 of 270
Well after sitting on the fence for a while I finally pulled the trigger on a CX700V. For me I had some incentive to go with the Sony as I have a couple extra batteries and their LANC control tripod which I'm pleased to confirm works with this model via a converter cable that plugs into the AV Port. Once you've had the controls at your fingertips I can't imagine giving that up. I also got a little jittery with what's going on over in Japan and can see a possible shortage of all the new models. I have no doubt that the other models from Panasonic and Canon may offer some advantages but I think at the end of the day I will be happy to sit down and enjoy the video I've shot with this unit. I'm replacing an aging TRV-900 so the jump to HD will be huge for me. I am dissappointed that they reduced the LCD Screen to 3" from 3.5", who knows why they make some of these decisions. I'm pleased to see a lens hood that still allows the flash to be used and I can also confirm that they do inlcude a remote which seemed to be in question. The extreme wide angle of this camcorder is also very nice so no adaptor is needed. One other frustration is the change they made in the hot shoe, I have a nice Sony light that will require an adaptor to fit now and there appears to be only one made by Pearstone (SSA-II) sold exclusively by B&H and its on backorder with no estimated arrival time. When manufacturers make changes like this which disables the use of their own accesories the least they could do is include an adaptor. The viewfinder is also fairly pathetic but I don't imagine I will have to use it very often, you can see what's in frame so I guess it does what I need. I haven't had a chance to shoot outdoors yet so I don't know how the LCD screen will work in bright light, the one on my TRV-900 was useless but I know they have made huge inprovements. I did also purchase a hood for the LCD (Hoodman HD-300) but it's a little on the small side and tends to hit the screen and activate the controls so I may have to shop around for another model. My goal is to author the content to Blu-ray so now I have to dig into the editing challenges. Some genius decided to leave 1080 60p out of the Blu-ray spec so there's that to deal with. Serously, interlacing should be completely dead by now, there's no longer any reason to support it and it brings in so many problems. I'll try to post back here once I've had a chance to work with it for a while.
post #68 of 270
The CX700 does well enough that if the Canon doesn't arrive in a timely manner I can use the Sony and be happy with it. Some minor annoyances and not quite what I want in good light, but good enough if it turns out the Canon isn't an option for what ever reason.
post #69 of 270
Hi JT - I just wanted to mention I just sent my CX700v back yesterday and received a Canon HF M41 today. I mentioned in an earlier post that the Sony video looked very soft or out of focus - certainly not as sharp as some of the raw footage posted on Vimeo from the Panasonic TM700 and TM900. I'll miss the CX700's 1080 60p smoothness, but I did a little testing tonight with the Canon and I feel the that the video looks better (sharpness) than the Sony, but it gets the judder during panning in 1080 30p mode. I'm a little disappointed in the EVF on the Canon - I wish it could be bigger and it needs an eyecup. I was also wondering if the Sony that I received could have had something wrong with it. I tried manual focus using the zebras and that wasn't any better. It's really hard to know what to buy. If I'm not happy with this Canon maybe I'll just punt another year, but thats what I did last year (sigh!)
post #70 of 270
I'm considering going a whole year without a camcorder of any type, to wait for whatever panasonic and canon will offer next year. The only thing missing from the canon is 60p, and from the panny decent low light.
It is my understanding that the fan on the panny is there as the 3 sensors generate a lot of heat. Rear illuminated sensors generate more heat than conventional ones, so this is perhaps why panasonic can't/haven't implemented them in the tm900. Maybe they'll go with a back illuminated single chip design next year at the expensive of colour accuracy? I hope they don't, i love the colours on the panny.
This is me thinking out loud, i could be way off
post #71 of 270
Sony NEX-FS100.
Super 35mm sensor
Priced at "only": $5,850

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S7AYpqZi2g

http://vimeo.com/21389883
post #72 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Johnson View Post

I'll miss the CX700's 1080 60p smoothness, but I did a little testing tonight with the Canon and I feel the that the video looks better (sharpness) than the Sony, but it gets the judder during panning in 1080 30p mode. I'm a little disappointed in the EVF on the Canon - I wish it could be bigger and it needs an eyecup.

B.Johnson, I'm curious how you find the colors on the M41. Sometimes Canon cams have a tendency to be a bit warmer (redder) outdoor. Whereas some have had issues with bondi-blue skies on some Panasonics, the skies on some Canons might lean a bit toward the red, as the result of the overall warmer color balance.

It's encouraging that you're finding the M41 sharper than the Sony, that's what I was hoping for. It should bode well for the HF-G10 that uses the same sensor, but a different lens.

How are you finding the low light? Is it better than the Sony?
post #73 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by B Johnson View Post

Hi JT - I just wanted to mention I just sent my CX700v back yesterday and received a Canon HF M41 today. I mentioned in an earlier post that the Sony video looked very soft or out of focus - certainly not as sharp as some of the raw footage posted on Vimeo from the Panasonic TM700 and TM900. I'll miss the CX700's 1080 60p smoothness, but I did a little testing tonight with the Canon and I feel the that the video looks better (sharpness) than the Sony, but it gets the judder during panning in 1080 30p mode. I'm a little disappointed in the EVF on the Canon - I wish it could be bigger and it needs an eyecup. I was also wondering if the Sony that I received could have had something wrong with it. I tried manual focus using the zebras and that wasn't any better. It's really hard to know what to buy. If I'm not happy with this Canon maybe I'll just punt another year, but thats what I did last year (sigh!)

I think it's possible you had something wrong with yours, my CX700 is actually a replacement for a defective CX550 that I sent back to Sony. They had no parts to fix it and I didn't want the hard drive unit they were offering for a replacement so I ended up getting a refund. That's how I ended up with the spare batteries and other stuff. It seems like quality control has really fallen off lately and their commitment to each model is almost zilch, I only had my CX550 for just over a month and they had no parts. For me this worked out as I ended up with a better model but it took me over a month to get the refund approved and another 3 weeks to receive it.
I'm currently stuck with 1080 60i or 24p since I want to author to Blu-ray so for now I won't be taking advantage of 60p either. I'm hoping at some point it will get added to the spec with the popularity it's gaining just like they added it to the HD spec. I'm going from SD to HD so it will be hard for me to provide any comparisons with the equipment I have but I did hear some other CX700 owners say they felt the video was sharper than the CX550. I probably will shoot some 1080 60p clips so I can view them on my 12 foot theater screen, that tends to reveal any shortcomings but again I can't compare it to the other models. I do have a pretty good eye for sharpness so I'll be looking for that when I put this unit thru its paces. I know what you mean about not knowing what to buy, if you spend enough time on this forum you will learn something negative about every piece of equipment out there. At some point you have to decide what you can live with in alignment with your budget and jump in....
post #74 of 270
I'm going for my 3rd panny. I had the 700 loved the super video in good light not happy with the low light and awb issue it had or something I did with it. The panny 900 I liked it a lot except the cricket sounds I had when I taped in smaller echo type rooms, low light again did not like. Tried the cx560 Sony very happy with low light but in out door lighting loved the panny's . The sony colors are off to me, the slower focusing is a little bit of a pain but I had the panny and they are much faster to me. I just ordered a panny 750 from amazon I hope it will be as good with good light as the other ones and hope the awb and audio beeps/cherps are better. I will live with the low light issue by adding more light when I can. The one thing about amazon is they don't offer 3 year extended warrenty. May be I missed the option. Next stop will be a pro camera but need to save up for one. It will be a Sony after looking at there new line up.
post #75 of 270
Gso125, I agree with all your observations 100%. To my eyes there was something just not right about the Sony colors...too blue outdoors, but OK indoors. It just couldn't match the 900's sharpness, clarity and colors.

BTW, I FINALLY got a good 900 this morning!
post #76 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Gso125, I agree with all your observations 100%. To my eyes there was something just not right about the Sony colors...too blue outdoors, but OK indoors. It just couldn't match the 900's sharpness, clarity and colors.

BTW, I FINALLY got a good 900 this morning!

I wish my 900 was good because it was the best fit for my hand and the LCD, good light was the best. I have OCD lol I have to have the best of anything I do, if I could just sell some other stuff I have like IBM servers and minicom KVM switchs from a web design venture that failed. But I will try the 750 and if it works good stop at this one. I made my mind up to keep a small hand held for Disney trips and get one of the new Sony nx procameras. It's funny I can't find a forum for pro cameras it seems to be only consumer. Any ways I need to learn alot more on one of these and editing skills. I hate when hooked on something new. Lol
post #77 of 270
"It's funny I can't find a forum for pro cameras it seems to be only consumer."

How about:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/

There are threads on the TM900 too; no beeps mentioned.
post #78 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"It's funny I can't find a forum for pro cameras it seems to be only consumer."

How about:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/

There are threads on the TM900 too; no beeps mentioned.

Thank you for the links. I'm glad people have been lucky with there 900's mine was great other then the beeps and low light.
post #79 of 270
Size of the units is the deciding factor for me. When my wife and I tried the Canon S21, it was HUGE compared to TM700 and the Sony CX560 was very close in size to the Canon. Since the M41/G10 and CX700 are the same size as the models we tried, the incredibly smaller size of the TM900 compared to its rivals is what swung me to the Panasonic. I have short fingers and my wife's hands are tiny. She had a tough time with the canon getting her thumb under the body for stability while being able to manipulate the zoom switch...it became a 2 hand operation. Canon - 7.6x6.4x5.1 inches. Panasonic - 2.6x2.8x5.75 inches. The difference is dramatic. Now if I can swap the Panny hand strap for the Canon, it would be great in terms of comfort and adjustability. I may have to cut off the cheap Panny hand stap for an after market version.

I can't believe they changed the battery between the TM700 and TM900 - that's got to be just so they can make money before the cloners break the security chip.
post #80 of 270
The new Canons are much smaller than the size you just quoted. The S21 is last year's model and the size for this year's M41 is:

2.9 x 2.8 x 5.4in

As you can see, almost identical in size to the 900.
post #81 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttmatsu View Post
Size of the units is the deciding factor for me. When my wife and I tried the Canon S21, it was HUGE compared to TM700 and the Sony CX560 was very close in size to the Canon. Since the M41/G10 and CX700 are the same size as the models we tried, the incredibly smaller size of the TM900 compared to its rivals is what swung me to the Panasonic. I have short fingers and my wife's hands are tiny. She had a tough time with the canon getting her thumb under the body for stability while being able to manipulate the zoom switch...it became a 2 hand operation. Canon - 7.6x6.4x5.1 inches. Panasonic - 2.6x2.8x5.75 inches. The difference is dramatic. Now if I can swap the Panny hand strap for the Canon, it would be great in terms of comfort and adjustability. I may have to cut off the cheap Panny hand stap for an after market version.

I can't believe they changed the battery between the TM700 and TM900 - that's got to be just so they can make money before the cloners break the security chip.
That battery thing is what kept me with the Sony's my CX150/550v&560V all use the same type battery. I have bought two of the next size up battery the PV70 and at $109US a pop that is something.
So it was not hard for me to stick with the Sony's.
post #82 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
The new Canons are much smaller than the size you just quoted. The S21 is last year's model and the size for this year's M41 is:

2.9 x 2.8 x 5.4in

As you can see, almost identical in size to the 900.
That is because the m400 series is not the predecessor to the S200 series, that title belongs to the S300 series, which has the larger sensor of the 200 series.

Personally, I think Canon has screwed this one up. I would not be able to stand any camcorder not as wide as the 600/700 panys, as he M400 series is equiped with, but I would also choose the Sony or Pany over the S300 series due to its similarities over the S200 series and benefits/cost vs those competitive models.

Now, incorporate some of these other pros from the S300 series, dump the M400 series and have the S300 priced in line with the M41 (to combat the pathetic 1/4 inch offered by Pany and Sony near that price range), leave the G10 to combat the TM900 and CX700 and I think they had a real winner. As it is, I think they just missed the mark in both areas, and priced their only real winner too high. But, we will see.
post #83 of 270
Sony camcorder with Exmor R. The best in extreme low light

Sony is outgrowing the rest of the pack, in part because of its early adoption of backside illumination in its Exmor R line of BSI sensors, Baron said. "Samsung is moving the same way," he added, and others are following suit. Canon, a pioneer in CMOS image sensors, "is still relevant, but is looking for partners for their future sensors."

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20048197-264.html
post #84 of 270
However most reports (actually, all that I've read thus far) now indicate the new Canon's with the CMOS Pro sensor are the new low light king, surpassing Sony.
post #85 of 270
Hi all, I stopped by Future shop two days ago for a new camcorder. I took the Sony CX 560v home because at that time I liked it's smaller size than the Pan 900 and they were at the same price but I got $50 less on Sony for price match. My experience with sony, it performs rather good at indoor but the outdoor is a bit softer than I expect. I have been following this forum for choosing either the Sony 560 or Pen 900. Can someone tell me how sharper in (%) the Pen better than the Sony because for the smaller size, better indoor and hearing the issue that beep sound, fan noise, poor low light/indoor from Pen, I am a bit tired to get a Pen 900 for A/B compare. The Sony has been playing with no quality issue but only I hope it can be focusing faster and perform sharper at outdoor.
If the difference of sharper in image is just around 5%, I pretty much will keep the Sony 560.
Thanks for your advice.
post #86 of 270
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatKing View Post

Hi all, I stopped by Future shop two days ago for a new camcorder. I took the Sony CX 560v home because at that time I liked it's smaller size than the Pan 900 and they were at the same price but I got $50 less on Sony for price match. My experience with sony, it performs rather good at indoor but the outdoor is a bit softer than I expect. I have been following this forum for choosing either the Sony 560 or Pen 900. Can someone tell me how sharper in (%) the Pen better than the Sony because for the smaller size, better indoor and hearing the issue that beep sound, fan noise, poor low light/indoor from Pen, I am a bit tired to get a Pen 900 for A/B compare. The Sony has been playing with no quality issue but only I hope it can be focusing faster and perform sharper at outdoor.
If the difference of sharper in image is just around 5%, I pretty much will keep the Sony 560.
Thanks for your advice.


I played with the Sony 560 and I owned the TM900.
The 560 is SLOW to autofocus and on the edges it seems to have a lot of trouble staying in focus.
The 560 is hands down the winner against the TM900 in low light.
The TM900 PQ stomps the 560 in bright light.
The TM900 is razor sharp, but some people have beeping issues, for me the fan was quiet, and I had no bondi blue issues.
I don't think the Sony will ever beat the Panny in bright light it's just visually more impressive. Low light is where the sony shines and I don't mean low light mode which is hideous and unwatchable without a ton of post.

If you do a lot of indoor keep the Sony , if you mostly shoot with bright lights or outdoors in the sunlight the TM900 is the one you want.

The real problem comes if you need 1 cam that does both.
post #87 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Cebu View Post

If you do a lot of indoor keep the Sony , if you mostly shoot with bright lights or outdoors in the sunlight the TM900 is the one you want.

The real problem comes if you need 1 cam that does both.

If you also take lots of video walking, then go with Sony CX560 camcorder. Panny TM900 if you take video most of the time on tripod.

Sony for indoor, walking shot, handheld most of the time
Panny for outdoor, fixed shot,tripod most of the time

Sony for taking home family video(family parties, graduation, baseball...)
Panny for taking scenic video(flowers, lanscapes, garden...)

If money is not a problem, get a Sony CX700.
post #88 of 270
Ed Lynn = Howard Stringer?
post #89 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ed lynn View Post

If you also take lots of video walking, then go with Sony CX560 camcorder. Panny TM900 if you take video most of the time on tripod.

Sony for indoor, walking shot, handheld most of the time
Panny for outdoor, fixed shot,tripod most of the time

Sony for taking home family video(family parties, graduation, baseball...)
Panny for taking scenic video(flowers, lanscapes, garden...)

If money is not a problem, get a Sony CX700.

Huh???? You make it sound like the 900 has the worst OIS out there. Far far from the truth. C'mon guy, let's be a bit objective here..."Panny for outdoor, fixed shot, tripod most of the time". Why not just say "Panny for outdoor, fixed tripod rigidly mounted 6' in the ground, temperatures 78-79, humidity 56-57%, winds 4-5mph out of the east"?

Panny can't take baseball videos, can't attend family parties, graduations...? Are you kidding me? Did you bother to watch Mark's baseball video with the 900?

I read stuff like this and it just makes me laugh. But I stop laughing when I think how much misinformation this can cause with people that don't know any better.

OK, I'll just consider this the comic relief of the evening.
post #90 of 270
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErLupo View Post

Ed Lynn = Howard Stringer?

I have both the Sony XR550 and Panny Tm700.

I use my Panny for most outdoor video and Sony for most indoor video.
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