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X-104 YOUniversal 3D Glasses (XpanD) Are [NOT] Here! - Page 5

post #121 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

Why would delay and duty cycle be interactive with each other when Monster's glasses have specific adjustments for each defined as the following

It's just two ways of skinning the same cat.

Monster's way is cognitively easier to explain, and easier to set the phase (delay). XPand's way would be advantageous if you ever needed to keep the falling edge in one place while you alter the duty cycle using the rising edge, which I could see possibly needing to do in some situations.
post #122 of 186
Now that I actually have my hands on one of these pairs, I have to say tuning them is a total pain compared to the MV3D. Not because of the different style of settings, but because you cannot run the glasses while tuning them. In fact, the settings won't take effect until you unplug the glasses from the PC. Also, the UI doesn't give a numeric readout, so you have to eyeball how far the slider is over.

Anyone else notice problems with sync loss if you add 80 clicks worth of delay to the open delay slider? At 40, it syncs fine, then at 80, sync is impossible, then sometime further up the scale, you can get sync back again. That could be a software-fixable problem, or it might be hardware signal bleed from the lens circuit into the detector circuit.

Off to the XPAND support forums go I, I guess.

Once I've got a handle on the X104s I'll do a side-by-side comparison between them and the MV3Ds on ghosting with my somewhat ... eheh... challenging LN46C750 set and post the results.
post #123 of 186
I'm sorry for the stupid question, but how should I start tuning the glasses to try and reduce ghosting? I watched Hugo last night and half the movie looked amazing, while the other half was pretty much a double image (not literally the 1st and 2nd half, I just mean in general). I have a professionally calibrated Panasonic GT25 plasma TV and although it's not perfect, I shouldn't see that much ghosting. Should I literally just start changing the settings around while watching the movie to see what happens?

Also, does anyone know when the different color glasses will be available in the US? I was told Jan, then Feb, then "early March", but it all seems to be ********.
post #124 of 186
Well, I'd answer your question, but as far as the X104s go, I'm still uncertain as to *exactly* what the sliders really do. After I have a sit down to take some comparative measurements, I'll be posting some sort of comparison of the MV3D vs X104 / tuning guide (for us non-DLP users who actually have to deal with a lot more on the ghosting front than the DLP folks.)

In the meantime, see if you can figure out how to display a still frame PNG, JPEG, or GIF and get the set into side-by-side or top-bottom 3D mode. You'll be needing to do that for calibration images. (On my set at least, they disable the ability to manually enter 3D mode when displaying non MPOs from the flash drive. feh.)
post #125 of 186
If you read the release notes from the latest (at least as of a night or two ago) firmware image, it says something about support for "Dual View". Anyone in the know here? Is that just support for the Sony SimulView monitor's IR protocol, or support for L-only, R-only modes? If the latter, how do we activate them?

Or is it some unfortunately named, totally unrelated feature/brand?
post #126 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

If you read the release notes from the latest (at least as of a night or two ago) firmware image, it says something about support for "Dual View". Anyone in the know here? Is that just support for the Sony SimulView monitor's IR protocol, or support for L-only, R-only modes? If the latter, how do we activate them?

Or is it some unfortunately named, totally unrelated feature/brand?

Good question for XpanD. All I found on their site is that they were considering it. Call or email them and report back, please.
post #127 of 186
I've finally given in and last week ordered a pair of MV3Ds to do the comparison myself. My new proj is too good to not know if I'm getting the most out of the glasses I'm using without trying the MV's against the X104s. I hope to have them if the local online supplier is not bsing about having stock in the country, since they seem to be the only supplier here. I won't be impressed if they stuff me around as I could easy have obtained the starter pack from the US quite quickly.
post #128 of 186
So far I've been able to get the MV3Ds to ghost less than the X104s, but that may just be because tuning the X104s is so tricky. On the other hand, the X104s seem to have less ghosting around the edges where the angle between the eye and the glasses is larger, and I haven't measured it in any empirical fashion, but they seem to be brighter when both are tuned to an equivalent ghosting reduction level.

But this is with LCD. I should be able to compare the two soon on a friends old checkerboard DLP set; he finally got the adaptor kit.
post #129 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

So far I've been able to get the MV3Ds to ghost less than the X104s, but that may just be because tuning the X104s is so tricky. On the other hand, the X104s seem to have less ghosting around the edges where the angle between the eye and the glasses is larger, and I haven't measured it in any empirical fashion, but they seem to be brighter when both are tuned to an equivalent ghosting reduction level.

But this is with LCD. I should be able to compare the two soon on a friends old checkerboard DLP set; he finally got the adaptor kit.

Can your tuning changes be reset to the factory default?
post #130 of 186
The X104s make this easy, the MV3D I believe there is a way, but I have not bothered. The factory default on the X104s is as ghosty as the untunable universal glasses I have, completely unusable.
post #131 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

So far I've been able to get the MV3Ds to ghost less than the X104s, but that may just be because tuning the X104s is so tricky. On the other hand, the X104s seem to have less ghosting around the edges where the angle between the eye and the glasses is larger, and I haven't measured it in any empirical fashion, but they seem to be brighter when both are tuned to an equivalent ghosting reduction level.
.

I guess if your particular display ghosts, it's more the displays fault to begin with. However, you can most likely tune the glasses to try help a bit via the delays/duty cycle. Some glasses can exacerbate existing ghosting, which I found to be the case with the X103s vs the factory Sony's when viewed with a first gen Sony VW90 3D. However, these days the current state of the art in projection no longer presents ghosting as a factor, even in PS3 3D gaming. My keenness to obtain MV3Ds is to once and for all test for lens tint differences between the 2 brands and which then results in a poss a brighter and more accurate colour reproduction in the resulting image.
post #132 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post

I guess if your particular display ghosts, it's more the displays fault to begin with.

This is true. However, a lot of displays considered to be bad ghosters could be at least watchable with the current tunable glasses options. In many cases even the vendor supplied glasses kit is inferior. In my case, if I could just get the stupid anti-ghosting filter turned off, ghosting would be at pretty tolerable levels.

Quote:
However, these days the current state of the art in projection no longer presents ghosting as a factor, even in PS3 3D gaming.

I'm a bit of a conservationist when it comes to buying new kit, for reasons of my own personal ethics. I was on a CRT until it finally blew up two years ago, so I'll be sticking it out with this kit until it also breaks, probably. Maybe I could persuade myself in a few years time.

Quote:
My keenness to obtain MV3Ds is to once and for all test for lens tint differences between the 2 brands and which then results in a poss a brighter and more accurate colour reproduction in the resulting image.

These images I took when trying to figure out WTF is up with the anti-ghosting filter and its bizarre tuning settings might help, though of course, my efforts to prevent the cell phone camera from doing its own jiggering may not have been as thorough as possible.

Note the spectral shift on the center set of vertical bars on the results images is set-induced, and the last column of the MV3D test image was suffering from back reflections.

([del]See the embedded image comments.[/del] Photobucket apparently now munges your image files, so I'll paste the embedded comments in the comments section there shortly)

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s7682/3dtests/
post #133 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

This is true. However, a lot of displays considered to be bad ghosters could be at least watchable with the current tunable glasses options. In many cases even the vendor supplied glasses kit is inferior. In my case, if I could just get the stupid anti-ghosting filter turned off, ghosting would be at pretty tolerable levels.

Yes that is what exactly what I was getting at. Main main point though was as you agree, the display tech itself is most to blame. It wasn't until the current era tuneable glasses, since the bit cauldron/MV3D/Optomas and now the X104s finally, that much could be done to try to compensate for what the display inherently was doing wrong. For me had I still been using the quite ghosting prone VW90 proj, I may, but will never know or really care(due to its impossibly dim first gen 3D tech), tune for better performance. I do own 2 HX series Sony panels as well. However, given the sheer lack any compelling reason to watch 3D away from my current proj, I haven't even tried using the X104s with my flat panels to examine and compare the diff between say them and the current gen Sony glasses with ghosting issues.
post #134 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

The X104s make this easy, the MV3D I believe there is a way, but I have not bothered. The factory default on the X104s is as ghosty as the untunable universal glasses I have, completely unusable.

The reason I asked is because DLP is known NOT to ghost, so it'd be a shame if you had the settings tuned for your ghosting set, and this caused ghosting or other artifacts on your friend's DLP.
post #135 of 186
I tried messing with the settings and couldn't get the ghosting to stop. There's one scene at the end of Hugo that ghosts pretty badly and I as using it to test.

There was no method to my testing, other than to move the bars one way or the other a bunch of times and try to find a better setting. Nothing helped. I guess that means it could be my TV.

Any suggestions?
post #136 of 186
Really it helps to have a still frame image. Tuning these glasses is very hard, what with not being able to see what you are doing in realtime, and having to fiddle with USB connectors between settings.

One thing to avoid is moving the open delay slider too far right and the close delay slider too far left at the same time. The glasses will allow you to move the open time after the close time, which flips the duty cycle and makes things even more confusing.

I haven't had the patience for it, but if I were to try to do it systematically I would start at default settings, move the close delay slider to the left until the image was visibly dimmer, then back it off a bit, then try moving the open delay both ways.
post #137 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

Really it helps to have a still frame image. Tuning these glasses is very hard, what with not being able to see what you are doing in realtime, and having to fiddle with USB connectors between settings.

One thing to avoid is moving the open delay slider too far right and the close delay slider too far left at the same time. The glasses will allow you to move the open time after the close time, which flips the duty cycle and makes things even more confusing.

I haven't had the patience for it, but if I were to try to do it systematically I would start at default settings, move the close delay slider to the left until the image was visibly dimmer, then back it off a bit, then try moving the open delay both ways.

Thanks for the advice. I actually tried that method of tuning with Hugo paused at a particularly bad ghosting point. I made the image darker and brighter...and really bad once the settings were way off, but the ghosting never changed.

Do you know where to get a still frame calibration image for 3D? I can try that.
post #138 of 186
Depends on what your equipment can do. If you can force side-by-side mode while viewing any old image, or whether you need an .MPO, or whether the only thing you can do is motion and you need a video of a still image.
post #139 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by robneal81 View Post

Thanks for the advice. I actually tried that method of tuning with Hugo paused at a particularly bad ghosting point. I made the image darker and brighter...and really bad once the settings were way off, but the ghosting never changed.

Do you know where to get a still frame calibration image for 3D? I can try that.

To me in only doing the firmware updates, this slider style adjustment as has been noted looks very clunky and also non-replicable for those who have multiple pairs.

Why not try a 3D bluray that has a static menu shot with decent 3D pic. I can't think of a particular one off the top of my head but I know I've noticed ones that are static.

I'm looking forward to Hugo, only for the 3D as I've heard the movie itself is kind of boring. Might give it a shot on the wkend.
post #140 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

The reason I asked is because DLP is known NOT to ghost, so it'd be a shame if you had the settings tuned for your ghosting set, and this caused ghosting or other artifacts on your friend's DLP.

Of course, I retuned.

So here's what I have to say about X104 (Medium size) vs MV3D on a DLP set:

Both pair of glasses have a wider degree of freedom when it comes to supine/prone head posture then the SSGs my friend had gotten with his kit -- those give you very little leeway: if you tilt your head back or forth at all, ghosting creeps in from the bottom/top of the screen.

The MV3D are biased more towards a prone head position, and the X104s are more biased towards a supine head position. This of course can depend entirely on how high your ears are on your head, but it makes the MV3Ds easier to fix, since you can just move the earpieces up to change the lens angle.

Laterally, the X104's sweet spot seems to be slightly too far away from the nose, and some slight artifacts may occur on the side of the screen closest to the nose on each eye.

Eventually I suppose they will figure out how to mass produce curved shutter lenses and such problem will be mitigated further.

The X104s are slightly brighter, but only by a hair, and the MV3Ds have slightly truer color. Tuning could possibly mitigate this on the X104s, as I only tested the default duty cycle, which might be clipping color planes.

However, based on my prior tests with my LCD I have some doubts about the XPAND's "fastest lens on the market" claim, as per my experiment with intentionally mis-tuning the glasses to catch the LCD progressive redraw:



Overall, for DLP users I think the MV3D are the technically better kit, but not by so much of a margin that it totally outweighs other factors (some of which are matters of taste/tolerance, like the noise of the MV3D driver circuit and the lack of light-guards on the sides of the X104s for example.) Either set is a significant improvement over the SSG glasses, generic universal, and X102 DLPLink sets we tried.

For LCD users looking for ghosting relief, however, at least until the X104s are easier to tune, there is a much stronger case for recommending the MV3Ds over the X104s. However, if I had to put money on which set is more likely to implement SimulView support, I'd have to bet on the X104s at this point, given the software for those is being actively developed, and the noise from the MV3D driver circuit makes me wonder if they can take the extra current spike needed to drive both lenses at the same time.
post #141 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

Of course, I retuned.

So here's what I have to say about X104 (Medium size) vs MV3D on a DLP set:

Both pair of glasses have a wider degree of freedom when it comes to supine/prone head posture then the SSGs my friend had with his kit -- those give you very little leeway: if you tilt your head back or forth at all, ghosting creeps in from the bottom of the screen.

The MV3D are biased more towards a prone head position, and the X104s are more biased towards a supine head position. This of course can depend entirely on how high your ears are on your head, but it makes the MV3Ds easier to fix, since you can just move the earpieces up to change the lens angle.

Laterally, the X104's sweet spot seems to be slightly too far away from the nose, and some slight artifacts may occur on the side of the screen closest to the nose on each eye.

Eventually I suppose they will figure out how to mass produce curved shutter lenses and such problem will be mitigated further.

The X104s are slightly brighter, but only by a hair, and the MV3Ds have slightly truer color. Tuning could possibly mitigate this on the X104s, as I only tested the default duty cycle, which might be clipping color planes.

However, based on my prior tests with my LCD I have some doubts about the XPAND's "fastest lens on the market claim." as per my experiment with intentionally mis-tuning the glasses to catch the LCD progressive redraw:



Overall, for DLP users I think the MV3D are the technically better kit, but not by so much of a margin that it totally outweighs other factors (some of which are matters of taste/tolerance, like the noise of the MV3D driver circuit and the lack of light-guards on the sides of the X104s for example.) Either set is a significant improvement over the SSD glasses, generic universal, and X102 DLPLink sets we tried.

For LCD users looking for ghosting relief, however, at least until the X104s are easier to tune, there is a much stronger case for recommending the MV3Ds over the X104s. However, if I had to put money on which set is more likely to implement SimulView support, I'd have to bet on the X104s at this point, given the software for those is being actively developed, and the noise from the MV3D driver circuit makes me wonder if they can take the extra current spike needed to drive both lenses at the same time.

OMG, I just got some MV3D's this morning and was going to post about doing a comparison. I totally missed your post somehow. I had been delayed by 2 weeks due to trusting a local supplier, so I went through Amazon in the end and had them in 4 days.

Great review!

I'll be able to test mine with the Sony VW1000 projector. As this unit simply does not exhibit ghosting, I will not be able to compare that aspect- not that that aspect is something I miss nowadays! I do have 2 Sony LCD TVs I could view, but I'm not going to focus on that aspect. Seems Zkidz has covered that enough anyway from his comments re LCD.

In my testing I'll def be looking for colour diffs. Interesting re brightness diffs reported and I'll compare that too. Fortunately, with this particular projector, it's pretty much considered to be cinema quality in that area. So hopefully any loss there is negligible. Feedback from other owners about the MV3D's has been positive in that area though already.

Oh well, fun to be had tonight. I love doing these kinds of comparison tests.
post #142 of 186
Quote:


I do have 2 Sony LCD TVs I could view

I'd be interested to know whether you can see any evidence of an anti-ghost filter running on the Sony LCDs. Assuming you can force side-by-side mode while viewing an image, this test image would only produce dark rectangles (when you tune for minimum ghosting) if there is an anti-ghost filter (or remotely possible, some tricky LCD driver stuff going on.)

http://www.abrij.org/~bri/3D/antighost.png

If there is an anti-ghost filter running it might look something like this through the right eye.



If not, or if the glasses are very ghosty, you'll only see brighter rectangles.
post #143 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

I'd be interested to know whether you can see any evidence of an anti-ghost filter running on the Sony LCDs. Assuming you can force side-by-side mode while viewing an image, this test image would only produce dark rectangles (when you tune for minimum ghosting) if there is an anti-ghost filter (or remotely possible, some tricky LCD driver stuff going on.)

http://www.abrij.org/~bri/3D/antighost.png

If there is an anti-ghost filter running it might look something like this through the right eye.



If not, or if the glasses are very ghosty, you'll only see brighter rectangles.

Zkidz, I would love to do that test for you but I really don't have the time at the moment to do it with either of the HX800 series LCD I have. I also just plain never run them in 3D as I find it totally pointless when I have the projector and they are just too small (even with the 55") and flawed an image by comparison to worry about using in any real capacity for 3D. I barely got time last night to do a run through testing my projector with the MV3D, as I had a bigger system upgrade of my Integra DHC-80.2 to an 80.3, then finding I still can't pass through 4K from my HTPC to the VW1000 4K projector even though the Integra is meant to be 4K compliant and even has a 4K scaler chipset built in. So you can see I have a fair bit on my plate HT-wise currently.

As for my finding with the VW1000 MV3D vs X104 test. I have to say MV3D is the winner. The key factor in it was as mentioned by zkidz in his testing, colour accuracy. The X104's def tend to warm into a yellow tint. Not as far as factory Sony tdg-pj1's though and are lighter. As for trying to discern brightness differences, I found it extremely difficult. At times it could appear that the warm tint of the X104s gave a misleading sense of them being fractionally brighter. However, after many A/B tests, I would actually say the Monsters were actually if anything fractionally brighter. As for image rendition with the VW1000, both glasses performed flawlessly with the 1000, there was just nothing of note to pick on when viewing the 110" projected image.

So overall, I will def being buying more MV3D/Optomas and moving the X104s down the chain.
post #144 of 186
Are these the "MV3D" glasses everyone is talking about?:

http://www.amazon.com/MonsterVision-...2851266&sr=8-1

They look identical to these Optoma. Is there any difference between them??:

http://www.amazon.com/Optoma-Technol...2851266&sr=8-2

I have two pairs of X104's and they're by far the best I've ever tried (I never tried the MV3D). I've waited over three months to buy two more pairs (I need 4 total), but both Xpand and Projector People can't get them in white or red in the U.S. I'm tired of waiting and just want more pairs of glasses. Should I just get the MV3D?
post #145 of 186
Yes these are the ones and I like them even more than the Xpand 104's they are much more comfortable. They are a no brainer at the price they are on sale for today. Just be sure to update the firmware immediately. I even ordered two more pairs for myself. They are identical to the Optoma's and the VIP's since they are made by Bit Caldron.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robneal81 View Post

Are these the "MV3D" glasses everyone is talking about?:

http://www.amazon.com/MonsterVision-...2851266&sr=8-1

They look identical to these Optoma. Is there any difference between them??:

http://www.amazon.com/Optoma-Technol...2851266&sr=8-2

I have two pairs of X104's and they're by far the best I've ever tried (I never tried the MV3D). I've waited over three months to buy two more pairs (I need 4 total), but both Xpand and Projector People can't get them in white or red in the U.S. I'm tired of waiting and just want more pairs of glasses. Should I just get the MV3D?
post #146 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

They are identical to the Optoma's and the VIP's since they are made by Bit Caldron.

So does it matter which ones to get?
post #147 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by robneal81 View Post

So does it matter which ones to get?

No, but I suggest the Monsters because they come with an emitter and rf dongle for the same price as the others alone. Just update the firmware when you get time. I have both and they are the same. They are a good buy compared with the JVC which cost more than twice as much and you still need to purchase an emitter. I have tried the JVC's and I like the Monster's (Optoma Bid Caldron) much better.
post #148 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

No, but I suggest the Monsters because they come with an emitter and rf dongle for the same price as the others alone. Just update the firmware when you get time. I have both and they are the same. They are a good buy compared with the JVC which cost more than twice as much and you still need to purchase an emitter. I have tried the JVC's and I like the Monster's (Optoma Bid Caldron) much better.

Thank's very much for your help. I just ordered it from Amazon and will post my comparison to the Xpand's when they arrive.
post #149 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by robneal81 View Post

Thank's very much for your help. I just ordered it from Amazon and will post my comparison to the Xpand's when they arrive.

I would love to hear what others think. Be sure to update the firmware as soon as you get the glasses. I would suggest the VIP firmware since it is even a later version than the Monster posted version. It is on the Curt Palme website.

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...db24726fc0662c
post #150 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by robneal81 View Post

So does it matter which ones to get?

If you have a VesaStereo 3D emitter output (3=pin mini-DIN) on your TV, no. If you have only an IR emitter built into the TV, you have to get the Monster branded set, but you can buy any brand extra glasses to go with the starter set.

(If you have only an RF transceiver built-in, these glasses will not work for your set.)
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