very powerful amp= better sound quality? - Page 8

Originally Posted by par4

And I'm sure Mr. Curl is equally impressed with you, too.

Originally Posted by anwaypasible

there is no website or book to be passed along.

snip

i am not a chemist.. so i dont know how much the chemical helps, and i dont know how long it lasts.

Originally Posted by penngray

If someone can show me a driver that measures better with higher voltage Im more then happy to say "WOW"

Originally Posted by Frohlich

So do companies like Thiel not know what they are talking about? The quote below is from their website and all their owner's manuals. For anybody that knows Thiel, they are a small engineering based speaker company (the founder was an engineer). Not trying to stir things but I assume they know what they are talking about or are they just perpetuating the myth?


"Keep in mind that sound quality is usually much more important than sound quantity. There can be large differences in the
sonic performance of two amplifiers of equal power, and this is more important than large differences in power. Most
everyone will be happier with a 100 watt amplifier of high sonic quality than a 200 watt amplifier of mediocre sonic quality.
For this reason, we feel there is no substitute for listening in making your amplifier decision."

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Yes, I would say they (Thiel) are wrong when the use the term "large differences." Go read up on various blind amplifier tests, and note how people often fail to tell amps apart.

Given all available evidence I know of, "large differences" only exist when the test procedure is sloppy. Level match the amplifiers, put blindfolds on people, then see if these large differences go away...

Originally Posted by penngray

Cmon, Companies are in business to make money. They have a marketing department that knows how to sell. The know that saying "There can be" is the easiest way to get around the real common sense truth. yes, there can be a difference but for many, many reasons (equal power is just the tip of the ice berg). They definitely know what they are doing but they also know real measurements and real controlled tests are boring and the real results will never sell anything to people who actually read those quotes. I think the last time I even bothered to read a quote was from a JBL ad 20 years ago..

Quotes, fluffy commentary should be ignored at all times because they offer little evidence of the truth. their only job is to capture your imagination which is the best way to convince you to buy their product.

Ask Thiel or any other company to prove the "Large Difference" with proper measurements and proper listening tests. See them change the topic in a hurry

btw, John Curl who is a famous amp designer is a highly subjective audiophile too. My point is that even engineers can be blinded by expectation bias and incredible imagination.

Originally Posted by palehorse

They got the last sentence correct; but, as should be expected from ANY company out to make money, the rest is pure marketing bullsh1t that prays on the easily swayed and uninformed masses.

/Pandora's box warning.
It's the same way Apple somehow convinced millions of people (read: lemmings) that they invented the concept of touchscreen phones and an App store... and, more recently, that they're still the only company that offers those two features. (ref: "if you don't own an iPhone..." commercials).

Marketing majors definitely have eternal job security...

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Yes, I would say they (Thiel) are wrong when the use the term "large differences." Go read up on various blind amplifier tests, and note how people often fail to tell amps apart.

Originally Posted by amirm

Oh, there is evidence to the contrary. Here is one blind test that shows differences between almost all amps they have ever tested: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...8024#post18024

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Go play w/ your putter, par4. Your pithy little anti science pop ins add nothing to these threads. Do you ever bring something substantive to the discussion? Or do you just snipe from the corner because your value system based upon belief & innuendo has no solid evidence to support it?

AJ

Originally Posted by Just cruising

Am I missing something? Where is the double blind test?

Originally Posted by amirm

Read the pdf linked in that post.

Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC)

Overpowering will damage a voice coil, but low power will not, even with high distortion. The voice coil can't distinguish what's distortion and what's not.

Originally Posted by amirm

Oh, there is evidence to the contrary. Here is one blind test that shows differences between almost all amps they have ever tested: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...8024#post18024

Originally Posted by pocketcash

I sir disagree with you there. Very high distortion waves with spikes that the speaker can not move with will just be heat. The amount and level will have alot to do with it, but you sir are not 100% right in what you post.

Originally Posted by Jinjuku

What PDF? The link takes you to another site...

Originally Posted by pocketcash

I sir disagree with you there. Very high distortion waves with spikes that the speaker can not move with will just be heat. The amount and level will have alot to do with it, but you sir are not 100% right in what you post.

Originally Posted by JHAz

What frequencies do you think speakers can't "move with?" classic amp distortion pushes the sound toward a square wave. Since the beginnning of synthesizers musicians have been using synthesizers that generate square waves (or as close as they can get) as a base sound type (common to see square wave, triangle wave and sine wave as the choices for the signal that you then muck with in the envelopes etc, going right back to the Moog). If speakers would fail with all the harmonics in a square waver, there would have been no ELP concert because the sound system would blow up immediately The Cars even would've been much different. While I agree that when you clip the signal you increase high frequency content and may overload your high frequency driver, it's not the frequency content, but the power that does it. Same power with a sine wave in the driver's pass range would cook the HF driver just as fast, AFAIK.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

If it's low level power, than the voice coils will cool down between these theoretical spikes. There's thermal mass involved...

I think, and I could be wrong, that an amp issue resulting in moderate DC offset, where the voice coil is not moving, and is being heated up, could be troublesome. I seem to recall Rodd Elliott discussing that issue.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Are you proposing that square waves, that otherwise are below a speaker's ability to handle the dissapation damage speakers?

Or are you discussing some theoretical distortion pattern that would likely never occur in reality is going to damage speakers?

I am pretty sure that distortion, in itself is not going to hurt speakers, providing it's not exceeding the speakers power handling abilities. Any signal, distorted or not that's at high enough average power will damage speakers. It's not the distortion which damages speakers due to clipping, it's the nature of the distortion which raises the average power level to a high enough point to damage the speakers...

Semantics perhaps?

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

Sorry, could not locate a link to a blind test after spending 5 minutes on that thread. Could you provide a better link if possible?

Originally Posted by whoaru99

Thiel speakers. like my CS3.6 are generally of lower impedance. The CS3.6 is at or below 3 ohms for most of the range with minimum of 2.3 ohms. The low impedance, coupled with moderate sensitivity, means wimpy amplifiers need not apply.

Originally Posted by pocketcash

Thats alot of IFs, semantics perhaps more so. Its just a point of cheap under powered amps have a better chance of killing off your speakers, clipping , dc and what ever cheap amps do to the poor speakers. Play it safe with a higher power clean well made amp. Lot of things change in audio, but a good amp never goes out style .

Originally Posted by Goingpoor

Wheres My Friends Phantom and Mike... Hey can I add my 2 pennies ? can I Can I Please ?

So I just wanted to add my opinion. I'm just a Redneck buisness owner for NY. I am not qualified to do any type of audio test.

Ok So I own a Yamha RX-A3000 AVR, And A Mcintosh MC252 2Ch amp. I Have Jm Labs Focal Cobalt speakers for my 5.1 Ch surround. I borrowed a Emotiva XPA-2 from my Neighbor. ts funny cause after it took along time for him to get it, I got to use it first brand new out of box.

Here are my speaker specs. These are for MY L/R 826S cobalts

Audio Section

•Number of Speakers : 4
•Impedance : 8
•Spikes
•Bi-Wiring Compatible
•Power admitted (W) : 150
•Tweeter : 25 mm
•Medium : 165 mm
•Boomer : 2 x 165 mm

Audio Performances

•Bandwith : 40 – 22 kHz
•Sensibility (dB/W/m) : 92.0

Ok gonna keep it simple.

I first tested to see if the mcintosh MC252 amp Vs no amp made any difference when Watching 5 Different 5.1 DTS-HD Bluray movies. Simple answer is NO I could not tell a difference. Because to MY EARS there was no difference. I listen at about -30db on Yamaha A3000.

Ok so another Simple test with the Emotiva XPA-2. Using the same 5 Bluray movies with 5.1 Ch DTS-HD. The Yamaha A3000 on -30db. Guess what? simple answer NO DIFFERENCE.

So I Did a A/B Blind test Between the Emotiva and mcintosh using it as a HT amp to drive front speakers, and also with the help of neighbor. Neither one sounded better then the other.

Ok so now we get into the 2ch Musical Test.

I used my itunes library off my HTPC using a HDMI cable from the PC to the Yamaha A3000. The Mcintosh MC252 was up first. I used the same 10 songs to do Amp on Vs Amp Off. This is where it gets interesting. With the amp off I could not get my music to sound good Past -15db's on Yamha A3000. But at that level it was to loud to enjoy. So With the Mcintosh MC252 on I decided to push it. I went to -10db's On Yamaha A3000 and the music was clean and LOUD too LOUD. But sounded really good with amp inline. The funny thing is according to my watt meter I was only driving my fronts with 25 watts at -10db's. I started thinking thats got to be wrong. So I measured the Mcintosh amp Draw and it was only 1.3 amps which would make it correct. Hmm only driving speakers with 25 Watts amazing.

So Now the Emotiva XPA-2 was up. Using same 10 Songs from itunes and doing a Amp on Vs amp off. The XPA-2 was very nice. It was alittle louder at -10db's on yamaha then Mcintosh but was very clean. The Amp draw on the XPA-2 Was about 1.5 amps.

So here it is very simple. I'm just a redneck. It was very hard to tell the differences between the Mcintosh and Emotiva when using for 2ch music. But there is a Difference. The Mcintosh has a very smooth and warm sound pretty close to an old tube amp and picks up alot of detail on classical music.

The emotiva is a IN your face kinda amp. When it came time for some rock music and 80's pop, boy it sounded awesome !!! It made everything thump. It has its Own sound and it shows.

Do I have a Favorite ? of course I do. and Its the one that sounds good to my ears regardless of the name on it. if I threw a pillow case over both amps it be to hard to tell which was on. And If I was to throw some music on, it still be pretty hard to tell, but there are some differences. Depending on the music you like.

I'm still amazed 25 watts of amp power made a difference in 2ch music. That leaves me with 225 watts of head room.

Originally Posted by Jinjuku

What PDF? The link takes you to another site...

Originally Posted by Goingpoor

I'm still amazed 25 watts of amp power made a difference in 2ch music. That leaves me with 225 watts of head room.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman

My point is that distortion, in of itself, does not cause damage to speakers. Distortion is certainly a symptom of clipping, associated with damage to speakers due to the higher average power, so the experts say. I would claim that saying distortion is causing the damage is a bit misleading.

I could fire up my synthesizer, and add distortion via FX, and play that all day long and do zero damage to the speakers.

Anyway, I am sure we are on the same page here. Just trying to clarify the semantics debate.

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman


Anyway, I am sure we are on the same page here. Just trying to clarify the semantics debate.

Originally Posted by phantom52

Maybe that way a moderator will delete this useless thread.

Originally Posted by pocketcash

I understand and I did really get into ELP as a kid. What ever the speaker can't follow than becomes just pure heat, now that can be a big problem with tweeters as you pointed out. But to say "high distortion" won't damage speakers and coming from amp guy, its hard to believe.