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The Timelapse Theatre - Planning n' Build Log - Page 17

post #481 of 1281
Hanes, you are brilliant my man! You never fail us.

I thought I'd chime in here, as it appears you guys need somone that is actually focused on construction and serious about getting things accomplished!
post #482 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony123 View Post

Hanes, you are brilliant my man! You never fail us.

I thought I'd chime in here, as it appears you guys need somone that is actually focused on construction and serious about getting things accomplished!

And your chiming in why????
post #483 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Wow, my thread got interesting in my absence!
post #484 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

Wow, my thread got interesting in my absence!

Yup, when the OP is away the miscreant posters will play!

Regards,

RTROSE
post #485 of 1281
Thread Starter 
It looks like I might have scored another pair of Meridian DSP 5000 speakers for a good price. This pair is 24/96 so if I can get them I'm going to use them as mains and punt the current mains to rear channels and have a 7.1 system after all!

Good thing I haven't sealed up the soffits yet!

I'd still like to dump the 5000c center channel and use a single DSP 5000 instead but that'll be an upgrade for another day.
post #486 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

It looks like I might have scored another pair of Meridian DSP 5000 speakers for a good price. This pair is 24/96 so if I can get them I'm going to use them as mains and punt the current mains to rear channels and have a 7.1 system after all!

Good thing I haven't sealed up the soffits yet!

I'd still like to dump the 5000c center channel and use a single DSP 5000 instead but that'll be an upgrade for another day.

Congrats!

Wish I could buy some speakers........ :~( Although my next speaks will probably be NicksHitachi Platinum series Trandu-SO-matics...
post #487 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Congrats!

Wish I could buy some speakers........ :~( Although my next speaks will probably be NicksHitachi Platinum series Trandu-SO-matics...

Trandu-SO-matics? Those are awesome!
post #488 of 1281
Thread Starter 
I went ahead and ran some more communications and audio wiring for the future rear speakers. I ran some CAT5e from the rack to the back of the room so I can hook it up to the rest of the house network. Not bad for a night's work. I still have to cut out the boxes for the rears and run the wire down into the new boxes but that shouldn't take long.
post #489 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Since I've been thinking about a Panasonic 7000 I found this post VERY interesting! For future reference.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post21423636
post #490 of 1281
Thread Starter 
I'm looking for some wisdom from the group here. I mounted my center channel so that the tweeter is level with the left and right tweeters. The trouble with this is that I can't really slide the subwoofer under the center anymore like I had hoped.

Do you suggest designing around the center where it is or could I raise it 16-24" above the left and right speakers' tweeters?
post #491 of 1281
I think a foot or two of difference among LCR heights would not be a major concern for me. I'd be more concerned about getting the bass right.

Couple questions: how high are L/R tweeters relative to ear height? (should they come up some anyway? - don't forget the second row) How may places can you fit the DTS-10 (I just wrote DTS-10, feeling sure it was right - then I look back and think, that's not right is it? What sub are you using?) If there's only one good spot, you're gonna have to make it work anyway, so make it work! If there's two or three workable spots, can you tell if any lead to smoother response than the others? (including seat-to-seat variation)
post #492 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

I'm looking for some wisdom from the group here. I mounted my center channel so that the tweeter is level with the left and right tweeters. The trouble with this is that I can't really slide the subwoofer under the center anymore like I had hoped.

Do you suggest designing around the center where it is or could I raise it 16-24" above the left and right speakers' tweeters?


Pictures man, pictures! Can't give any suggestions without pictures!

Seriously, you are planning on an AT screen right? I would think that it would be more important to have the tweeters at the same level and then alter the position of the sub left, right, or whatever to accommodate the center. As you know the lower sub frequencies are non directional and the higher frequencies are directional. I would say it would be more obvious to the listener if there was the difference in the tweeter height, vs. changing the sub location. What was the motivation for placing the sub near or under the center? Convenience or was there a specific acoustic goal?

From what I have gathered and observed here on the forums, is that when you do a AT screen your "front three" typically or usually (but not always) are identical speakers mounted at the same level across the screen width. The subs then are relegated to the corners, or the spaces between the front three speakers.

Wow, that was really helpful wasn't it? I'm from the GOVERNMENT and I'm here to help!

Regards,

RTROSE
post #493 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HopefulFred View Post

I think a foot or two of difference among LCR heights would not be a major concern for me. I'd be more concerned about getting the bass right.

Couple questions: how high are L/R tweeters relative to ear height? (should they come up some anyway? - don't forget the second row) How may places can you fit the DTS-10 (I just wrote DTS-10, feeling sure it was right - then I look back and think, that's not right is it? What sub are you using?) If there's only one good spot, you're gonna have to make it work anyway, so make it work! If there's two or three workable spots, can you tell if any lead to smoother response than the others? (including seat-to-seat variation)

I'm using two Lilmike F20 subs. Well, I HAVE two. I'm not sure if I'll be using two... it depends on whether I can fit them on the stage or not! Haha.

I'm not sure exactly the height of the L/R tweeters but they're above seated ear height. I don't plan on a second row anyway.

There really aren't but two or three possibilities for sub location if I use both. See photo below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Pictures man, pictures! Can't give any suggestions without pictures!

Fine!

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

Seriously, you are planning on an AT screen right? I would think that it would be more important to have the tweeters at the same level and then alter the position of the sub left, right, or whatever to accommodate the center. As you know the lower sub frequencies are non directional and the higher frequencies are directional. I would say it would be more obvious to the listener if there was the difference in the tweeter height, vs. changing the sub location. What was the motivation for placing the sub near or under the center? Convenience or was there a specific acoustic goal?

Yeah, I'm planning AT. The sub needs to go below the center because it's one of the only places it will fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

From what I have gathered and observed here on the forums, is that when you do a AT screen your "front three" typically or usually (but not always) are identical speakers mounted at the same level across the screen width. The subs then are relegated to the corners, or the spaces between the front three speakers.

Yeah, I would like to have three identical speakers in an ideal world but I already have the center channel. I suppose I could sell it. I have been thinking about doing that... The F20 subs are SO large though that even if I put them in between the Left and Center and Right and Center that they would stick out beyond the L/R and interfere with the soundstage.
[/quote]

Here's a photo of the stage layout as of this morning.



I'm planning to have the equipment rack on the left (where the pile o' equipment is).

The right hand side where the Linacoustic roll is can be used for one sub but I thought that it would be far better if I used that corner for bass trapping instead.

The space underneath the center channel can be used for one sub if I elevate the center a smidge and re-engineer the shelf technology.

I have also thought about stacking both F20s on their sides and using them as a center channel shelf. That would raise the center too high, I think. Not to mention that it would look like the world's biggest kludge.
post #494 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

I'm looking for some wisdom from the group here. I mounted my center channel so that the tweeter is level with the left and right tweeters. The trouble with this is that I can't really slide the subwoofer under the center anymore like I had hoped.

Do you suggest designing around the center where it is or could I raise it 16-24" above the left and right speakers' tweeters?

I only see two options, both of which have their drawbacks. First - do you have the room to put the center in front of the sub cabinet and advance the whole screen forward a bit more than you had originally planned? I don't know your exact measurements, but if I recall correctly your proscenium depth is relatively shallow and won't allow for this.

The other option is to do as you suggested and put it above the sub, but to get the best imaging you most certainly would want to angle it down toward the primary listening position. However, doing this has its own set of acoustic drawbacks - think of pointing a flashlight straight out into the room vs. pointing it downward toward a specific spot. The acoustics could still be well-balanced for the "sweet spot" listening position, but not quite as great for a second row of seating, for example. In this option I would try to raise the left and right speakers slightly (within reason and in relationship to seated ear height) to get the continuous tweeter flow from left to right.

A potential third option would be to put your center on a floor stand just in front of the screen with a slight angle upwards toward the listening position. Not as attractive as hiding everything, but perhaps the best acoustic option given your circumstances.

Pics (especially side view with your sub on the stage) would be helpful.
post #495 of 1281
This is as much a question as a suggestion, but wouldn't the acoustic impact of moving the center channel up and angling it down be greatly affected by the speakers radiation pattern? It seems like a speaker with a broad radiation pattern in the vertical direction would be better suited to this type arrangement?

Again, I really have no idea if this is correct, just throwing it out there for comment.
post #496 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

I'm looking for some wisdom from the group here. I mounted my center channel so that the tweeter is level with the left and right tweeters. The trouble with this is that I can't really slide the subwoofer under the center anymore like I had hoped.

Do you suggest designing around the center where it is or could I raise it 16-24" above the left and right speakers' tweeters?

Hi John,


I would re-design the center shelf or make a stand to mount the center vertically. Align the tweeters of course and that should give you enough room on either side of the center.

I can't tink of any reason a D-array would not work perfectly well in a vertical orientation. I believe most of the concern with horizontal arrays is the driver CTC distance and comb filtering off the horizontal axis. For this reason most MTM and other D-arrays make sure they cross low enough to minimize comb filtering between drivers. Vertical alignment aligns the drivers vertically so that the CTC distance is 0, eliminating the problem with horizontal off axis comb filtering and you'll NEVER be >30degrees off the vertical axis......

Just a thought.
post #497 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Hi John,


I would re-design the center shelf or make a stand to mount the center vertically. Align the tweeters of course and that should give you enough room on either side of the center.

I can't tink of any reason a D-array would not work perfectly well in a vertical orientation. I believe most of the concern with horizontal arrays is the driver CTC distance and comb filtering off the horizontal axis. For this reason most MTM and other D-arrays make sure they cross low enough to minimize comb filtering between drivers. Vertical alignment aligns the drivers vertically so that the CTC distance is 0, eliminating the problem with horizontal off axis comb filtering and you'll NEVER be >30degrees off the vertical axis......

Just a thought.

Hmm... Your starting to win me over. I'm heading downstairs to work so I'll flip the center on its side and see how it sounds while I'm working.

By the way, I've been laying out the new video. It takes time... we're really busy at work lately. I'm hoping that I can get the video published before the end of next week but no promises!
post #498 of 1281
I think NH just might be on to something there. I would give that a shot and see what you think. I would say that doing this is probably the best compromise for your situation. I don't think you will be giving up much in the way of sound quality. What speakers do you have, if you have said I can't remember. However there are a few manufactures who do a mid tweeter mid configuration for their L,C,R set up. Ascend and SVS are two of them. Obviously if they work in both horizontal and vertical applications so it is definitely doable.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #499 of 1281
Cool let me know what you think!

IMO there is no reason for a horizontal center unless you have to fit it under or above a non-AT screen, but you wont have that problem

Make sure you bring them all out past the subs so you dont get any diffraction off the sub boxes!

Also on your bass trapping options i thought about the back closet. If you made the door AT you could stuff it with pourous absorption for bass trapping and that would also help quiet that drain pipe. Another option is stuff the closet same as above and seal open doorway with 1/4" plywood which would act as a resonant panel trap.

Just more ideas thrown about.....
post #500 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Cool let me know what you think!

IMO there is no reason for a horizontal center unless you have to fit it under or above a non-AT screen, but you wont have that problem

Make sure you bring them all out past the subs so you dont get any diffraction off the sub boxes!

Also on your bass trapping options i thought about the back closet. If you made the door AT you could stuff it with pourous absorption for bass trapping and that would also help quiet that drain pipe. Another option is stuff the closet same as above and seal open doorway with 1/4" plywood which would act as a resonant panel trap.

Just more ideas thrown about.....

Ooooh... AT door, you say? Hmmmmm. That's an interesting idea!

Check out the photos in the next post for my ideas based on today's Subwoofer Tetris!
post #501 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

I think NH just might be on to something there. I would give that a shot and see what you think. I would say that doing this is probably the best compromise for your situation. I don't think you will be giving up much in the way of sound quality. What speakers do you have, if you have said I can't remember. However there are a few manufactures who do a mid tweeter mid configuration for their L,C,R set up. Ascend and SVS are two of them. Obviously if they work in both horizontal and vertical applications so it is definitely doable.

Regards,

RTROSE

I'm using Meridian DSP5000 digital active speakers. They're amazing.

The layout for the towers is (top to bottom) TMM with rear port. The center channel that they sold with them has a dramatically smaller cabinet volume, is dual-front ported instead of rear ported, and is a (left to right) MTM layout. They don't sound anything alike.

So....

I did this tonight. Much Subwoofer Tetris. I like this layout. I'm going to have to hold off (again) on 7.1 to do it this way but that's fine. I wasn't planning on it for the longest time so it's no major loss.






This seems to work. It certainly sounds great! I just spent the past hour listening to it (even though the subs aren't hooked up yet).

I'm planning to stuff that right-hand corner with bass trapping and I'm planning to put Linacoustic 2" (1", plastic, 1") on the rear wall and facing side of the subs.

edit: that orange fishing rod marks the planned location of the screen.
post #502 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post


I'm using Meridian DSP5000 digital active speakers. They're amazing.

The layout for the towers is (top to bottom) TMM with rear port. The center channel that they sold with them has a dramatically smaller cabinet volume, is dual-front ported instead of rear ported, and is a (left to right) MTM layout. They don't sound anything alike.

So....

I did this tonight. Much Subwoofer Tetris. I like this layout. I'm going to have to hold off (again) on 7.1 to do it this way but that's fine. I wasn't planning on it for the longest time so it's no major loss.

This seems to work. It certainly sounds great! I just spent the past hour listening to it (even though the subs aren't hooked up yet).

I'm planning to stuff that right-hand corner with bass trapping and I'm planning to put Linacoustic 2" (1", plastic, 1") on the rear wall and facing side of the subs.

edit: that orange fishing rod marks the planned location of the screen.

Me likey!

Hope you didnt throw your back out moving those beast subs
post #503 of 1281
I had never heard of the Meridian's, a very interesting speaker. I did some more reading (plus the link you provided) a very interesting concept to the speaker to say the least to have all the processing DAC's and what not on board the speaker. Pretty big geek factor for sure. Me likey too.

I knew your subs were beast's, but seeing them on your stage really puts it into perspective for sure. Those are HUGE! I even showed Mrs RTROSE and she was duly impressed with the size of them. She did comment on the "finish" though, I reassured her that they would be behind the screen and would not be visible so the "beauty" factor was not an issue. However, to me they ARE a thing beauty finished or not where ever they end up.

I think the way you have everything laid out should work just fine.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #504 of 1281
I don't know why it didn't occur to me. MTM is better vertical.
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614
post #505 of 1281
Thread Starter 
I have finished running the wire for the speakers! YES!

Today I also managed to calculate, measure, and mark the mounting position of the projector. I'm concerned about this mostly because I'm ready to rough in the electrical and low voltage boxes so that I can start running that cable.

Now I need to read up on mounting!

Thanks for the input on the MTM, etc. with the center channel. I really like the idea of having an identical center so I think I'm going to stick with this arrangement that I showed you earlier today or last night. I learned a thing or two about center channels too! Woohoo!

The subwoofer drivers should be here on Tuesday (FINALLY!) after six weeks of back-order. Those subs are HEAVY. I'm not looking forward to moving them many more times!
post #506 of 1281
I was stressed over the mounting of my PJ. Don't know why exactly, but I figured I would get it up and it would be all jacked up or something. I took so long building my theater that the PJ's went through about five generations of evolution. Luckily Epson sticks pretty close with their throw, zoom, and lens shift formulas.

Just take your time measure twice er ah ok four times and you should be good to go. I'm guessing you have a good idea what projector you are going to use right? I spent a lot of time lurking in the owners forum and then checking and rechecking the numbers with the calculator pro feature at projector central. Very informative. Do you know what mount you are going to go with? I went with a Chief mount and I was/am very happy with the quality and features. Very well made.

Good news on the woofers, I expect to see a couple of time lapse videos here at some point showing off your progress and skills.

Regards,

RTROSE
post #507 of 1281
The room is looking great. One question...What's up with the two coffins on the stage?
post #508 of 1281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdanforth View Post

I have finished running the wire for the speakers! YES!

Today I also managed to calculate, measure, and mark the mounting position of the projector. I'm concerned about this mostly because I'm ready to rough in the electrical and low voltage boxes so that I can start running that cable.

Now I need to read up on mounting!

Thanks for the input on the MTM, etc. with the center channel. I really like the idea of having an identical center so I think I'm going to stick with this arrangement that I showed you earlier today or last night. I learned a thing or two about center channels too! Woohoo!

The subwoofer drivers should be here on Tuesday (FINALLY!) after six weeks of back-order. Those subs are HEAVY. I'm not looking forward to moving them many more times!

What throw distance did you end up with?

FYI at 14' throw 120" diag 2.37 is the maximum i could get....
post #509 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RTROSE View Post

I was stressed over the mounting of my PJ. Don't know why exactly, but I figured I would get it up and it would be all jacked up or something. I took so long building my theater that the PJ's went through about five generations of evolution. Luckily Epson sticks pretty close with their throw, zoom, and lens shift formulas.

Just take your time measure twice er ah ok four times and you should be good to go. I'm guessing you have a good idea what projector you are going to use right? I spent a lot of time lurking in the owners forum and then checking and rechecking the numbers with the calculator pro feature at projector central. Very informative. Do you know what mount you are going to go with? I went with a Chief mount and I was/am very happy with the quality and features. Very well made.

Good news on the woofers, I expect to see a couple of time lapse videos here at some point showing off your progress and skills.

Regards,

RTROSE

I'll do my best to get a vid out this week! I want to get one up as much as you want to see one. Thanks for the compliments.

I have pretty much decided on a Panasonic pt-ae7000u despite its having 3D. The price is barely approachable, bright, good contrast, and my company is a Panasonic dealer so I should be able to get a small discount off MAP.

I too will probably use a Chief mount (again, we're dealers). I need to read up on this a lot more. I'm not sure how to install the thing blind through drywall. I don't know if I should cut out the ceiling, install plywood blocking, then reinstall drywall or what.
post #510 of 1281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon_B View Post

The room is looking great. One question...What's up with the two coffins on the stage?

Those are for when my neighbors hear the 20Hz at 120dB!
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