SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 45

I've worked for an audio repair company and maybe can offer some insight. Clipping creates harmonics at higher frequencies and the tweeter is usually the best place to look (or hear) for it. The most common result is a tweeter being damaged by an amp with too little power clipping at an output much higher than its' rating. It also tends to happen in both channels at the same time; however, it could be possible for a recording to have a large peak in one channel and thus just clip on that side.

One thing to listen for is compression / distortion in both the midrange and treble. Sometimes the woofer will exhibit stress too; however, that can be also a sign of it being overdriven and not the amp clipping.

Given the playback levels noted and the power rating for the amp I don't think this was a clipping problem. Distortion could happen elsewhere in the front end but if that's the case it would be evident on the tweeter as well.

if the only place you have heard jtr triple 12s was at this get together then you have not heard them.
Jeff made it clear by asking in an earlier post if he could bring a sub and he was assured that it would not be a problem.That is what i call a "set up".
To make the sitiuation worse you actualy post reviews or "thoughts" on a product that was completely misused and set up for failure from the beginning.
The other problem was the power. Just because the 12s are sensitive and will run on very little power does not mean that giving them more is not advised. These speakers are 1600watts at 4ohm anything less than 1000watts is not enough and will cause distortion. d-sonic and wyred 4 sound are perfect compliments.
bad statements and reviews coming from the improper use of products from this past weekend can and will have quite negative effects upon a potential customers thoughts since it is hard for most people to do an audition in person.
anyone posting thoughts on products to the general public has the responsibility of at least basing their opinion on proper set up and impletation of the products. It is obvious this did not happen not even for one song.
please try to overlook the poor grammer and mispelling. i am from west virginia so english is my first and only language, i am just not very good at it.
i have alot more to say but do not want to complain when people put in such hard work and effort to get this gtg going in the first place. everyone who attended was fortunate and most of us are completely jealous. I would be excited just seeing the soundscape 10 in person without even hearing it.
PLEASE GO TO THE JTR OPEN HOUSE IF YOU LIVE IN WIS AND POSTED YOUR THOUGHTS IT WOULD BE THE LEAST YOU COULD DO.
thanks
wvchris

The Accuton drivers have been very reliable for me but I have heard from others that the woofers can crack if overdriven. In this case (and the Phil's mid) the open back enclosure puts more stress on the driver. The absence of the air spring / loading of a sealed enclosure will increase the driver's excursion. If the crossover slope and / or frequency allow too much of the lower frequency range to creep in then distortion can result.

1st post - very nice.... Welcome to AVS...

Everyone here is well aware of the disadvantage, and if the OWNER himself wasn't there - then I would def walk away from this with not the prettiest of thoughts of his speakers... BUT- IMO, the JTR's were at a disadvantage when the decision was made to run every speaker at full range and in 2 channel only.... Jeff made it very clear that his products should be used in conjunction with a sub - and that the listening should be taken with a grain of salt because in Jeffs own words "The missing bottom end shifts the tonal balance which caused them to sound bright." I will take him at his word. It was not a SETUP, but a compromise that was made. Jeff is a well respected member on the forums and him and Mark Seaton go way back in the audio realm.

Compromises are made at GTG's when there are multiple speakers in the frey - should we run with subs - or full range amongst many, many other factors... This GTG was clearly laid out to state they were going to run full range 2 channel only... that should have been the deciding factor towards whether or not Jeff should have chose to run his speakers. Either way, he brought them and people LOVE his product and the speakers speak for themselves...

Coming from knowing a guy like RMK! that replaced his REVEL SALONS and still loves what his JTR's bring to the table when properly setup I'll take what was gleaned from the performance of them at the gtg with a grain of salt... AS SHOULD OTHERS.

I don't think anyone is - or should be walking away from the GTG with a point of view that the JTR's are not good quality or good sounding speakers...

OH and BTW.... no need for you to make something like that your first post, we have done plenty of gtg's and auditioned many speakers only to come back here and have people piss and moan about what we did, in trying to post evaluations..... yet we still come back for the beat down. We always make it clear that any statement is our opinion and constantly take any of our statements into consideration with tarnishing a manufactures product. This was a rare opportunity for members to meet and under circumstances such as this - with multiple manufacturers attending is pretty much unheard of... I wasn't even there but wish I could have been...

I have no doubt that is correct but truthfully I have hosted many movie events in my home theater with people of all ages. While I would demo a particular section of a movie at those volumes to "show off" my system, if I played an entire movie at that volume I think iit safe to say I would be asked to turn it down.

On the other hand different strokes for different folks. Jonathan said he would play it that loud for an entire movie so I probably won't be going to see (remember there is seeing here as well) any movies at his house

Terry had the onkyo receiver used for our movie play time capped at -10. Ill often watch movies at -12 with the bass turned up a few dbs hot. For demo scenes I usually like to approach reference. I don't think that's otherworldly. One of my buddies always watches movies at around -5. That to me is too loud for a whole movie, but its still enjoyable!

Randy, you are still welcome and invited to come over.

In case anyone wasn't aware, I was planning on letting Mark and Jeff run their speakers last so we could cross over to a subwoofer (or two in Terry's case). Jeff was totally cool at the GTG, though, and we when chatted about running the speakers in order of price range he actually spoke with me personally and said he didn't have an issue running without a subwoofer. In other words, it was his choice. Obviously his JTR's are designed to run with a subwoofer, but he was gracious enough to not bother messing with the subs and just run the speakers full range. After all, this was intended to be a GTG in which all speakers were run full range (which we were clear about), even though I was willing to make an exception. In the end, the two high efficiency speakers were so sensitive that running them with subwoofers wouldn't have worked anyway, at least not with the preamp and Terry's dual LMS5400's . When we tried later on at the GTG the subs sounded like they weren't on because they were 11-12dB quieter than the speakers, which I already mentioned earlier in the thread.

To summarize, Jeff chose to run sans subwoofers for the listening session, and even when we went to hook them back up for a second listening session because we knew they should be paired with subs, it didn't work out at all due to the sensitivity mismatch. Please relax with comments about the JTR's needing subs and making it sound like we ran them without them intentionally to put Jeff's speakers at a disadvantage; this was not the case, and Jeff approached me in Terry's kitchen about just letting them run full range before his speakers were run. I'll also note that I did hear them running with Terry's receiver with subwoofers and they sounded good, but the tonality did not change.


I usually watch around -12 too, Jonathan. For movies, I do not think that is too loud, and I hear zero distortion or strain through my speakers or subs at those levels; I actually re-created the GTG levels in my room with music and then movies (obviously my room is smaller, so take it with a grain of salt), and my SongTower's didn't distort in the slightest, whether run full range for music or crossed over to subs for movies. For music, though, -10 would definitely be too loud, although I use a preamp for music. The cool thing about movies is, when you're watching at say -10, only the dynamic action scenes (or whatever) get really loud, and it's not a sustained level. If the entire movie was 100dB + we'd all have hearing loss.

I hope this thread has cooled down and people will respect the opinions of the GTG attendees. I'll have you know a number of folks haven't posted their impressions because they are afraid of getting scrutinized by members here. That is just sickening...

Can't help if I appreciate how someone dresses. And I will go to other get togethers just to baffle people because I am a woman and I do know a little about audio. I know this is a "man's club", but there is room for some women I think.

Cool...I don't care for the shape but the wood veneer was amazing. If I could afford them I would buy them for sure.

I was just messing around with your hubby I am happy a woman enjoys this stuff, this is by no means a man's club, just not many women care. My wife loves the theater when she is in it but she rarely goes in it. I can't wait to hear what she says when the next big truck comes in with my shipment today.

Nuance,
I apologize if I took this off course as I meant no direspect. My blind testing was not meant saying this GTG was bad and it should have been blind, I was just saying that it would have been interesting. I know I can pick out my different speakers blind but it just gets closer than one might think. That is all. These GTG's are not only fun but very time consuming, I don't care how it is run because I am just glad they happen. Is there something we would like to see, sure, but we also need to accept what you guys decide to do or don't bother to read about it. I just get up in arms about when people start stating facts when there are too many variables. I do want to hear a line array of ribbons sometime because I know the speakers tested won't play loud enough for me.

Duh! Just noticed where you hail from. I grew up in Westmoreland, went to MVCC, then RIT.

I would personally refuse to listen to anything above 85dBA or 92dBC.

I'm probably a loner.

Whoa whoa whoa - you all saw that right? It's public and official! It's a miracle!!!!

MKtheater,

No worries good sir. I wish our methods and results could please everyone, but those are unrealistic expectations. In the past we have attempted and pulled off blind tests, but nothing of this caliber; there was just too many people and speakers to attempt a blind GTG. Perhaps one day, though, with less people and only a few speakers; though I will think twice about posting my findings publicly again. Thank you for your post, MKtheater.

It is tense in here all of the time. I am afraid that if most of you don't take an aspirin quick you may have a heart attack.

Chris, these statement are just foolish. I spoke with Jeff and as Nuance said, it was his decision to go along with the GTG format (no subs). He knew his product would be at a disadvantage using this format. But he went anyway because he likes meeting audio folks and getting their feedback (good or bad). Like many of us, he doesn't often get to hear other great products like were represented at the GTG and it helps him in his own product evolution.

Thank you for your post. Due to Jeff being one of the most polite attendees and the fact that we knew the JTR's would be at a slight disadvantage due to not reaching as low as the other speakers, I fully intend to visit his showroom in order to hear his speakers in the environment and format they were meant to be used in. I cannot make the open house this weekend, but I do plan to schedule a visit at some point. As a person, I cannot say enough good things about Jeff; what a cool guy!

A few comments to put things into perspective...

First, Terry and Nuance did a superb job organizing this GTG and deserve kudo's for a great event. They did an admirable job of keeping things as fair as possible and giving every speaker an equal opportunity in the spotlight.

Second, I am obviously very familiar with our speakers, so I was mostly interested in hearing others. While you might give a slight nod to one speaker or another, there was not a bad speaker in the bunch. I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to hear each and every one of them and I'm sure owners would be happy with the performance of their speakers regardless of which they chose.

Having unknowingly cracked the cone of an Accuton driver and installed it, I am quite familiar with how these drivers sound with damaged cones. We have never had one fail in the field, but I have heard (and replaced) damaged drivers discovered when testing prior to shipment. So I am familiar with the sound.

When Terry informed me there was a problem with the SoundScapes, I stood on the right side of the room and was not able to hear the issue. When I moved to the left side of the room, I forget what cut was playing, but on highly energetic sections, I heard severe breakup coming from the left speaker. It sounded like a damaged midrange cone and I assumed that is what it was.

Was this a huge issue? Not all that significant looking back on it.

As far as I know, this issue did not present itself during most of the instrumental cuts (which did not seem to be highly compressed). It only seemed to surface on cuts that were mastered hot with a lot of compression.
On these cuts, the average volume was significantly higher.

The cuts that generated the most negative comments with respect to almost all of the speakers were these highly compressed tracks.

Sightly negative comments about the sound of vocals was reported in almost all of the speakers except Mark Seaton's Catalysts. Almost no one sensed compressed or distorted vocals with these speakers.

When back at the shop, I played the SoundScapes at higher SPL levels than were used at the GTG and was unable to duplicate the breakup heard at the GTG. So the issue was not speaker related. We had to look elsewhere.

Since there were no issues with the Catalysts (even at higher SPL's during a home theater demonstration after the GTG), you could pretty much rule out problems with the tracks themselves (flac), the source (sqeezebox) or the preamp (Rougue). The only difference was that Mark's speakers were self-powered.

When you consider that the breakup heard with the SoundScapes occurred only on the left channel and that people seated to the left of center seemed to report more problems with vocals on almost all of the speakers (except the self-powered Catalysts), I think it is pretty safe to assume there was some sort of issue with the left monoblock.

Chances are quite good that most of the negative comments regarding vocal quality with almost all of the speakers was really related to issues with that amp channel. With the lower sensitivity of the SoundScapes, it actually drove that channel to extreme break-up, causing me and others to assume there was a damaged driver.

But keep in mind that this situation did not occur on all tracks and people seemed to enjoy all of the speakers on the tracks that were not as highly compressed. In fact, just after the SoundScapes began playing, one attendee commented that he was seriously considering ordering a pair. So even with the issue, it was not the end of the world.

I brought up the amp issue for one reason only. There were quite a few slightly negative comments about almost all of the speakers present. Since I was convinced that at least some, if not most, of those comments might have been related to an issue with one of the monoblocks, I thought it only fair to all the speakers companies involved to make my assumptions known.

But I would not want to have these comments cast a negative light on the GTG. I had a great time and I'm sure everyone else did as well. Again, I want to personally thank Terry and Nuance for a wonderful event. I've been to many GTG's over the years, and this was one of the best. Congrats to all involved and thanks to everyone who supplied such great speakers.

- Jim

I agree!

BTW, I never watch a movie at more that -10 (DTS) or -8 (Dolby) and talky films are at -12 or -14. Every once in a while I let the system off leash and run at reference or higher if I want that 3rd row center feel for a concert video or I'm just showing off in a demo. It's a guy thing I guess.

I think it is great you are into hifi. I wish my wife was, then it would be real easy to get what I want! However the other night she said to me, "Don't you want a new thingy for your system, why don't you go get it" That "thingy" is an amp.. She has come along way, I asked her while we were watching a movie the other night if she likes all of our new equipment or if I should unhook it all and she said she loves it!! I really think she was surprised when my new RX8's in rosenut arrived, she just went on how beautiful they are. I began to tell her last night how beautiful a Seaton subversive is!! That is my next piece

I understand this...I just wanted some opinions. I do not have the luxury of having a dedicated home theater rook where I can use screens and other such things. I have 3 little kids under 6 and I am very appreciative that the SongTowers can play music and movies well and not be an eye sore in my room. If I could have a dedicated HT room Mark Seaton's speakers would be the one's I went with and would put them behind a screen. However, I would never use them in a room for just audio. They really stick out. I like my speakers to look like they go with my furniture. I believe it is called getting the Wife Approval Factor, and women care about how things look in their rooms. But thank you for the HT lesson.

You sound like my husband. Thanks for your feed back

But that's exactly what you did.

Trust me...it is not easy for Nuance to get new things. Although I appreciate the audio set up I am not a fan of buying new things all of the time. When there are get togethers he always wants to change things up. I know the thought of being happy with what you have is not normal with you all. Yet it is a dream that your wives or girlfriends have. Yet it is just a dream!

How sad and disappointing. It's a shame that some "critics" who seem to completely miss the point of the GTG have to spoil it for everyone else.

Since I wasn't able to attend, I've been enjoying reading posts from those who were there.

Sigh... I know the feeling. I actually stopped caring to the point of abandonment when I found out my 2 year old used permanent marker to draw on my Usher Be-718's. They just destroy everything... brand new LV bag, walls, even cracked marble stair steps!

They may not admit it, but there are plenty of us guys who care about asthetics as well.

A bit off topic but if a woofer stops playing later than the way it's supposed to, "smearing" I guess, would that be considered more warmth or greater soundstage? What's the real world effect and the definition?

If you are willing to look past some of the BS, this turned out to be an extremely informative thread.
The "problems" that you guys experienced at the GTG have spawned some very interesting and educational discussions.
Thanks again for taking the time, and putting forth the effort to host GTG's such as this one.
Hopefully those attendees that are reluctant to post will find the strength to do so, as their opinions are probably among the most beneficial. Remember it's the quite ones that you have to watch out for.

Cheers