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SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 48

post #1411 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

Yes, I think we should all be very Stereophile like. Not only that, I think we should say the pledge of allegiance and sing Kumbaya at the start of every GTG.

But Kumbaya sounds so bland! I think we should sing Hakuna Matata!!


post #1412 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post



I did find a couple of the GTG attendees’ comments about the JTR’s rude. There were a lot of comments about the attendees who's comments were being scrutinized and how that scrutiny created a fear of posting. How about the manufacturer who brings his product to the GTG and then has to read derogatory comments like “ugly” (ok, they are kind of ugly) , “fingernails on a chalkboard” and “had to leave the room” casually thrown around by attendees compelled to be “totally honest”? I’m not a PC type person and can be a bit sarcastic myself but I do think that some respect was due and comments like that lack class.

So you prefer that instead we should have lied? I also find it interesting you seem to care about the negative comments only regarding the JTR's. It is obvious to me that you're not happy that some people ranked them near the bottom. I have all the respect for Jeff in the world, but I simply will not lie, and there is nothing offensive or wrong with that. I also asked to visit his showroom to hear them in their "proper" setting, as I feel they will benefit more from it. This was a 2-channel GTG for music, and if you don't like the results that's fine, but complaining about opinions being rude? RMK...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Sorry but I had to comment. So you want us to be more like Stereophile and speaker designers from each brand being docile public marketing figures? We expect ID speakers to be better not only in accuracy but also in aesthetics as the bar has been raised by Salk and Ascend's piano finish. We uphold these owner/designer brands in a higher level than the usual mass market brands due to their passion and what they bring to the table for the same amount of $. That same passion usually translates to the quest of accuracy which in return makes us old timers who got tired of the same general public tuned speakers (midbass hump etc) to trust their creations. Thus ID speaker consumers are blunt, transparent, and I think more honest in their remarks for the benefit of the designers to improve their products.

And hell, where else can you find a speaker designer teaching another established one regarding polarity in public? Would you consider that rude or constructive advancement?

Agreed 100%
post #1413 of 1777
Can you guys put all the reviews and cost of each speaker on the first post so they don't get lost? I forgot to do this on my shootout and I even have to search for the results in my own thread.

Have you guys ever heard Maggies and how do they compare? I have owned maggies and know their sound so it would be interesting.
post #1414 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I did find a couple of the GTG attendees' comments about the JTR's rude. There were a lot of comments about the attendees who's comments were being scrutinized and how that scrutiny created a fear of posting. How about the manufacturer who brings his product to the GTG and then has to read derogatory comments like ugly (ok, they are kind of ugly) , fingernails on a chalkboard and had to leave the room casually thrown around by attendees compelled to be totally honest? I'm not a PC type person and can be a bit sarcastic myself but I do think that some respect was due and comments like that lack class.

I think this is a great point.

Not just an issue with describing the JTRs. There were other comments that were rude and lacked respect as well.

In the end, things have to be taken in perspective, and while I think comments like those do lack a bit of class, I more so think they lack knowledge and understanding about a particular product or manufacturer, and the individual's own understanding of his/hers personal preferences.

The speakers sound different, it doesn't mean anything was engineered wrong.
post #1415 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

So you prefer that instead we should have lied? I also find it interesting you seem to care about the negative comments only regarding the JTR's. It is obvious to me that you're not happy that some people ranked them near the bottom. I have all the respect for Jeff in the world, but I simply will not lie, and there is nothing offensive or wrong with that. I also asked to visit his showroom to hear them in their "proper" setting, as I feel they will benefit more from it. This was a 2-channel GTG for music, and if you don't like the results that's fine, but complaining about opinions being rude?

But how do you feel about comments that second guess a manufacturer's implementation of certain elements when those comments come from individuals with no speaker engineering background?
post #1416 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Can you guys put all the reviews and cost of each speaker on the first post so they don't get lost? I forgot to do this on my shootout and I even have to search for the results in my own thread.

I thought about this too, but Archaea's scanned pages would make it huge!

Maybe if he could reduce them a bit.
post #1417 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

I did find a couple of the GTG attendees' comments about the JTR's rude. There were a lot of comments about the attendees who's comments were being scrutinized and how that scrutiny created a fear of posting. How about the manufacturer who brings his product to the GTG and then has to read derogatory comments like ugly (ok, they are kind of ugly) , fingernails on a chalkboard and had to leave the room casually thrown around by attendees compelled to be totally honest? I'm not a PC type person and can be a bit sarcastic myself but I do think that some respect was due and comments like that lack class.

I think that no one likes to hear that someone doesn't like their product. However, our society is failing because people aren't told the honest truth. When I wrote me review I wrote how I honestly felt. Which from what I can tell is seldom done on this forum because everyone is afraid to take flack. Why do people say, "post your comments" when what they really mean to say is, "Please tell us nicely all the good things and sugar coat the bad or leave it out." My favorite is telling someone that their opinion is wrong. I is an OPINION not a fact. This is why I have never wanted to forum before. I think JRT probably has a good speaker for Home Theater. However, we were at the GTG to listen 2 channel audio. I am sensitive to high frequencies. There are many speakers out there that give me a headache. One of the first pairs Nuance owned drove me up a wall when he listened to music. Movies were fine but songs were bad. I know that HT speakers are usually put behind screens, but if we were there to listen for audio they would not be my speaker of choice. Now if we did a GTG for home theater I would probably feel different but I don't know. All the guys seemed nice. Even if I didn't like a speaker doesn't mean that I don't like the person. And lets be completely honest, I don't think that all of these men on this forum really care what I think about each speaker. This is a guys club. Some may value what I say but I would think and hope they would make decisions for themselves. And if they can't do that, I would hope that listening to people with more experience would be a better choice.
post #1418 of 1777
You can be truthful without being disrespectful.

"They are ugly" vs "Their looks are not for me" vs "I could not put them in my living room"

"fingernails on a chalkboard" vs "I did not like the highs, they seemed very edgy" vs "the highs did not sound right to me"
post #1419 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You can be truthful without being disrespectful.

"They are ugly" vs "Their looks are not for me" vs "I could not put them in my living room"

"fingernails on a chalkboard" vs "I did not like the highs, they seemed very edgy" vs "the highs did not sound right to me"

It's all the same thing... we like what we like and dislike what we dislike.

I will say this though... if something is audibly offensive, it's usually measurable.

I know if I built some ugly speakers, and they got the job done, I wouldn't be offended by someone calling them ugly. I'm sure if Jeff charged more, he could have a more furniture grade finish. It is what it is.

As far as other aspects, if they were heard, then perhaps Jeff can go back to the lab and try to identify them. As mark said, often these are just a db or two in the frequency response, or some ringing in the impulse response, that can be corrected in the crossover.

One of the problems with narrow directivity speakers like the JTR, as was discussed in Floyd Toole's book, is that they lack "masking" effect. For a speaker with wide dispersion like the Songtower, if there is a resonance, it is often masked by reflections in the room.

Whereas if the direct sound dominates, the SAME resonance is simply more audible, and a bit more care must be taken with the crossover. Tricky things like this are what make speaker design interesting.
post #1420 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

But how do you feel about comments that second guess a manufacturer's implementation of certain elements when those comments come from individuals with no speaker engineering background?

I take them with a grain of salt, mainly due to them not having experience or an engineering background. This same should be applied to anything you and I say, as it is all just opinions. No one should feel forced to lie or feel like they cannot give their opinion at all. Now that is wrong, and far more offensive than possibly offending someone with your opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You can be truthful without being disrespectful.

"They are ugly" vs "Their looks are not for me" vs "I could not put them in my living room"

"fingernails on a chalkboard" vs "I did not like the highs, they seemed very edgy" vs "the highs did not sound right to me"

I disagree man. I disagree completely with that entire train of thought. That's a sugarcoated unrealistic approach, and as Laura brought up (good point hun), it can even be applied to politics and our own society today. Everyone is afraid to speak up and say how they feel because they get trashed by the media, even harassed. It's just not right. Well, I don't care about political correctness, I only care about the truth; the latter will not be sugarcoated by me, though I do think I maintain a good level of respect. I will not tiptoe around something in attempt to be politically correct or please everyone; life doesn't work like that.

The people have the right to know the truth, and that is more important than possibly hurting someone's feelings. With that said, I don't think anyone was intentionally (or even unintentionally) disrespectful. You're reading too much into people's opinions. My speakers got trashed by one of the posters, and I didn't go off and say his comments were offensive. I disagree agree with him, sure, because the left monioblock was determined to be causing the distortion on all speakers, but they are his opinions and God bless him for publicly sharing them. I respect him for doing that and feel no ill will towards him.
post #1421 of 1777
The Nuances seem very well suited to one another.
post #1422 of 1777
So basically only write nice things, everyone has to like everything, and there are really no differences in speakers because you can't say bad things. If you do or don't agree with certain people or are a novice and don't know the lingo stay out of the thread. This thread sounds like it is going to be fun and objective.
post #1423 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The Nuances seem very well suited to one another.

We are. Nothing wrong with that. I hope that those that have wives you would be suited with them too!
post #1424 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The Nuances seem very well suited to one another.

We sure are; politically especially, which I think is very obvious to you guys by now. When you start saying I should change how I present my opinion you're touching a major nerve with me. With that said, I mean no offense and have no beef with you; I simply won't be told to be PC because one or two people might be offended. There are other people in this thread than just those people, and their opinions are just as valid.

And that is all I'll say on that topic. Feel free to disagree, as it is a free county and I will not complain because it's your right to share your opinion without being politically correct.
post #1425 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I take them with a grain of salt, mainly due to them not having experience or an engineering background. This same should be applied to anything you and I say, as it is all just opinions. No one should feel forced to lie or feel like they cannot give their opinion at all. Now that is wrong, and far more offensive than possibly offending someone with your opinions.

I agree...no one should be forced to lie...nobody is being asked to lie.

But second guessing design or engineering? Knowing how much time all of these manufacturers have put into their products, my opinion, is a sign of disrespect. It is one thing to subjectively prefer one implementation over another, but to imply that the one you didn't like as much was implemented wrong or poorly, is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I disagree man. I disagree completely with that entire train of thought. That's a sugarcoated unrealistic approach, and as Laura brought up (good point hun), it can even be applied to politics and our own society today. Everyone is afraid to speak up and say how they feel because they get trashed by the media, even harassed. It's just not right. Well, I don't care about political correctness, I only care about the truth; the latter will not be sugarcoated by me, though I do think I maintain a good level of respect. I will not tiptoe around something in attempt to be politically correct or please everyone; life doesn't work like that.

The people have the right to know the truth, and that is more important than possibly hurting someone's feelings. With that said, I don't think anyone was intentionally (or even unintentionally) disrespectful. You're reading too much into people's opinions. My speakers got trashed by one of the posters, and I didn't go off and say his comments were offensive. They are his opinions and God bless him for publicly sharing them. I respect him for doing that and feel no ill will towards him.


I completely agree with you about politics.

But this was a friendly GTG...not a shootout to find a winner.

Is it truth you are looking for, or an opinion? Not saying anyone intentionally did anything, but I do believe personal bias comes into play, and that is what I mean by people being unaware of their personal preferences influencing their descriptions or reasoning for their opnions. ie. "I didn't like this, so maybe he should have done this" or "I didn't like this, so the implementation is wrong". To think you know better than the engineer....I think that is disrespectful.

Those examples I gave above had different meanings to you?

I have to give you some time to edit before I respond. I had to edit after you edited. LOL!

After thinking a bit more, I guess a reader can just think of these instances as laughable as well.....I guess it all matters on your perspective/knowledge.
post #1426 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I agree...no one should be forced to lie...nobody is being asked to lie.

But second guessing design or engineering? Knowing how much time all of these manufacturers have put into their products, my opinion, is a sign of disrespect. It is one thing to subjectively prefer one implementation over another, but to imply that the one you didn't like as much was implemented wrong or poorly is another.


I completely agree with you about politics.

But this was a friendly GTG...not a shootout to find a winner.

Those examples I gave above had different meanings to you?

Well, perhaps our interpretations are different. Which specific quotes are you talking about? I saw no one say that their was a flawed design/engineering or implementation concerning said design was wrong. Of course, this thread has been busy lately so I could have missed a post or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

You can be truthful without being disrespectful.

"They are ugly" vs "Their looks are not for me" vs "I could not put them in my living room"

"fingernails on a chalkboard" vs "I did not like the highs, they seemed very edgy" vs "the highs did not sound right to me"

If you're talking about these two comments, I see nothing in them that claims the design is flawed or the engineering is poor; I simply see an opinion given that expresses exactly how that person felt.
post #1427 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

We sure are; politically especially, which I think is very obvious to you guys by now. When you start saying I should change how I present my opinion you're touching a major nerve with me. With that said, I mean no offense and have no beef with you; I simply won't be told to be PC because one or two people might be offended. There are other people in this thread than just those people, and their opinions are just as valid.

And that is all I'll say on that topic. Feel free to disagree, as it is a free county and I will not complain because it's your right to share your opinion without being politically correct.

Mary Matalin and James Carville are fairly hard core political strategists that are married to each other. Mary is quite conservative while James is quite liberal. When she was asked how is it that the two have been married for so many years despite their strong and opposite political beliefs she replied that what was important is that they believed in each other.
post #1428 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post


But this was a friendly GTG...not a shootout to find a winner.

Definitely the key right there.

Friendly Get Together.

I would never say that my Friend's speakers are Ugly. I would say we have different tastes and I prefer certain aesthetics.

I take back what I said about the Soundscape 100%. I just prefer a different aesthetic because I know they look beautiful to many other folks.

It's not about lying or being dishonest. It's being nice and friendly and saying the same thing, but just more tactful.

It is friendly after all.
post #1429 of 1777
^ Friends are honest with each other; you don't have to hold back with them. In your case, you're basically lying to your "friends." That's not a friend I'd want... You can still be respectful and call a turd a turd, know what I mean (I am not implying any of the speakers were or are turds, because they aren't - FYI)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

Mary Matalin and James Carville are fairly hard core political strategists that are married to each other. Mary is quite conservative while James is quite liberal. When she was asked how is it that the two have been married for so many years despite their strong and opposite political beliefs she replied that what was important is that they believed in each other.

That's a cool quote; thanks for sharing it with us sir. I fully believe in and support my wife's comments, and since they seem be be getting scrutinized I will naturally back her. Call it bias, but duh, of course I will stand behind her. With that said, I think this conversation is taking the thread off topic, so perhaps it is best to end it now. There is always private messages, emails, phone calls or other various ways to discuss this.
post #1430 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

If you're talking about these two comments, I see nothing in them that claims the design is flawed or the engineering is poor; I simply see an opinion given that expresses exactly how that person felt.

I didn't want to single anyone out....
I'll send it in a PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

If you're talking about these two comments, I see nothing in them that claims the design is flawed or the engineering is poor; I simply see an opinion given that expresses exactly how that person felt.

So if someone told you Mrs. Nuance is ugly, and her voice is like nails on a chalkboard, you wouldn't take offense? j/k...it's just an example.
post #1431 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMK! View Post

The Nuances seem very well suited to one another.

It's not GTG.

It's WWF tag team action.
post #1432 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

So if someone told Mrs. Nuance is ugly, and her voice is like nails on a chalkboard, you wouldn't take offense? j/k...it's just an example.

I love you man, but did you really just publicly post that? I get it is an example, but wow... Telling a human being, someone with feelings, that they are ugly is a lot different than saying a piece of man made equipment is ugly. It's not even close to apples to apples.

Please take this to PM.; it is getting out of hand.
post #1433 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I love you man, but did you really just publicly post that? I get it is an example, but wow... Telling a human being, someone with feelings, that they are ugly is a lot different than saying a piece of man made equipment is ugly. It's not even close to apples to apples.

Please take this to PM.; it is getting out of hand.

The example was telling you, not Mrs. Nuance. I would never tell that to anyone directly.

Compare that to telling, any one of these speaker manufacturers that their creation is ugly and sounds like nails on a wall.

Where do you draw the line?

edit: My bad...I left out a word in the example!! CRAP! That was an F up!
post #1434 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

....Nuance......... you wouldn't take offense?

If someone honestly said anything negative about Salk speakers, Nuance would be totally offended.

Right?
post #1435 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What happens if the polarity was reversed somewhere in the recording chain?

Don't be silly Chu. That would be obvious, the music would play backwards.
post #1436 of 1777
And with that I am done posting here. Seriously, it was nice to meet most of you at the GTG. But I am not going to sit here and deal with this. This is Nuance's hobby and he can keep you all. I am not this into audio. I enjoy what I enjoy and that is it. I hope to see some of you in the future. Best of luck to those that are seriously looking for speakers. I hope you do find what you like. Auditioning can be fun and so can GTGs just remember to keep your opinions to yourself.
post #1437 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by PAD View Post

I have ST's and SoundScape 8's. SS8's and probably some other Salks will be there at the show. The complete exhibitor list is listed on the site:

http://akfest.com/exhibitors.html

Thats Great, I will sure stop by and thanks for the link
post #1438 of 1777
^ The forum is public, so naturally the manufacturers will see the comments if they are looking for them, but no one directly told them their speakers are "ugly" or bad. I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't respect the guys that brought/sent speakers to the event.
post #1439 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Nuance View Post

And with that I am done posting here. Seriously, it was nice to meet most of you at the GTG. But I am not going to sit here and deal with this. This is Nuance's hobby and he can keep you all. I am not this into audio. I enjoy what I enjoy and that is it. I hope to see some of you in the future. Best of luck to those that are seriously looking for speakers. I hope you do find what you like. Auditioning can be fun and so can GTGs just remember to keep your opinions to yourself.

Sorry Mrs. Nuance for not reading and correcting my post before posting it. It certainly was not meant to offend, certainly not after everything I have been posting about.
post #1440 of 1777
Women's hearing is much more sensitive because they don't lose the upper frequencies like men do as we age. My wife loves the sound of my DR's over anything I have owned but at very loud levels she can not take them but the guys just want more. I can see her not liking a compression driver as compared to a ribbon. Ribbon tweeters by nature are more detailed and laid back at the same time(or more neutral). I have heard the B&C DE-250 and it was very nice but I prefer the DR's cheap line arrays better, I also prefer the DE-250 to the Triple 8's. They are all very good and others would rate them the opposite but opinions due vary.

To be fair I have seen people say things about the songtowers in the past and you defended them, nothing different than what RMK!is doing. We all defend what we like but like they say, one man's garbage is anothers treasure. We own what we own for a reason, we can't please everyone.
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