SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 52

You are starting to learn/realize that money to performance means JACK SH%T and some fancy brand boutique loudspeakers aren't really that good... same goes for some amps... LOL (there are imposters in ID as well though)

You seem IMHO to be the one that was there with a so called "golden ear".

PS Buy a CARPET!!! ROTFL

Depends on your definition of "good". For example a speaker can be super accurate but loses to one that has properties the listener is looking for at that listening session. Afterall this hobby is like wine, all subjective described with the same flowery language to depict something that is... well all too personal. But there is one solid fact that cannot be disputed and that is my speakers are better than yours or anyone else's

Instead of bickering and wasting time, why don't you guys make more $ and order all the speakers you ever want to hear. It doesn't really cost that much compared to let's say collecting exotic cars. The poor sells time, the rich buys it...

Hehe - it'll be fun. Since you cannot make AK Fest this year (nor can I now) I hope you can attend RMAF.


Thanks - I appreciate your appreciation. These things are never easy, and even if they go off without a hitch you still get dumped on by some people. That is why I am done with these events, or at least holding them on public forums.

Because the transistor was bad and was causing the amp on the left side to be underpowered. It explains why no one heard distortion on the right side concerning all speakers. I think most of what you (we) were hearing was the amplifier issue and the weakness in some of the recordings (edgy sounding vocals at times), which if you recall we intentionally chose to see how each speaker would react. As Terry mentioned, most of what we listen to on a day-to-day basis isn't "audiohphile" recordings, so it made sense to put in some poor and average ones, as that reflects what we actual listen to. Your description of losing bitrate quality when hearing the "speakers struggle" is a good one, and further leads me to believe it your seating location and/or recording showing it's flaws.



Yes there is more to the problem. Klaus (the amp designer) admitted the amplifier's characteristics could have changed and caused what we heard. The reason Terry's distorted on Saturday and not Friday is because you used subwoofers with the FMODs on Friday, and probably because we continuously drove the crap out of the amp on Saturday, perhaps causing the issue to worsen. You'll also recall we "hot swapped" speaker cables with the amps turned on, and even though Terry was careful about the leads not touching perhaps it further worsened the conditioned of the transistor? I'm no expert, so I am just including all possible scenarios here.

The fact that you heard no issues on Friday night (even when run full range and listening louder than Saturday) shows something was wrong on Saturday, and it appears to have been the amplifier. I also agree with Randy that sitting where you did (on the floor off center) was not a good spot to evaluate speakers. It was likely the worst seat in the house.


When an amplifier clips it doesn't only distort in the bass frequencies coming from the speakers. The reason the issue was more prominent on the SoundScape 10's is because they are power hungry work horses and had the most resolving/detailed midrange drivers. It's also very possible the damaged amplifier was taxed even harder with the SS's than with the other speakers (at our listening levels, transients could have exceeded 300 watts during dynamic peaks), thus the amps weren't up to the task to begin with; the amp with the damaged transistor simply amplified the distortion more prominently.


If you had just hosted a GTG with 25 people would you easily submit that your amp was flawed, especially since you've never heard it before (because he uses subs)? I'd be skeptical and protective too. It's not his fault, as he never heard the distortion because he crosses to subwoofers, and I still think the GTG was a success.


Yes, I've tested this issue in my home, which I already mentioned in this thread. I went home and tested (I think it was Monday night), and while running full range using the same songs and listening at the same levels I heard no distortion, and my amp puts out less power. An amp could be rated for 1000 watts into 8ohms, but if it's damaged it is compromised and cannot be fully relied on. Concerning the distortion in all of the other speakers that you heard, since no one else really heard it I blame your seating location; it's simply not where you are suppose to sit while auditioning speakers.


You've repeated the statement that you were the one to hear the distortion a number of times already, implying the others were less experienced than you or don't hear as well/know what to listen for. I think that's a little rude. When Terry waved me over (I was in the kitchen mid-conversation) I heard the issue, but I waited until I was sure because I knew some of the musical tracks weren't "audiophile quality." Terry clearly heard the issue too, as did Pete, Jim, etc. Others may have too but perhaps didn't want to speak up about it at that time for a number of reasons unbeknownst to me. Or, as you said, since the right speaker seemed fine perhaps most people sitting off the floor and more centered and to the right didn't hear it as clearly or at all. After all, you were sitting on the floor and closer to the left speaker, so you should have heard it clearer than everyone else.


There you go again. Remember, Jonathan, you were on the floor more towards the left speaker, and subjectively in the worst seat in the house. Speakers aren't meant to be sat 6 feet away from, off to the left and on the floor; that can introduce a number of other issues such as comb filtering. That's why you were asked "Are you sure you want to sit on the floor" on Saturday.

Wow now the attendees are arguing with each other. Chill people chill...

We're not arguing, we're discussing. He and I aren't throwing insults or getting heated.


Randy,

I am bias, I admit it. That's the beauty of a double blind test, though - no bias. I am certainly willing to participate, but only if it is performed correctly, and I honestly don't see that happening, which I mean no offense by; I think you were right to drop it in the first place...it's just too difficult to control everything.

Regarding myself, I am confident, yes, but I don't mean that to come across as being an egotistical d-bag. I'm confident because I love this hobby, have put in a lot time and effort to learn and feel that it has not all been for nothing. We learn by researching and doing, and in case some people weren't aware, I've partaken in blind tests before (that's when I heard the Salk's for the first time, and I didn't even know they would be part of the test); they intrigue and excite me, as I too love the science behind this hobby. I think I've learned a lot over the last 10 years, and I now find it easier to correlate measurements to listening. Thank God for people like Floyd Toole, Nousaine, Olive, Geddes, Linkwitz, etc; they are all amazing teachers that had the decency to share their findings and studies with us. I'm so grateful! So yes, I do think I'd be able to pick out the speakers we listened to at the GTG blind (Terry said he could too, and I believe him), but it has nothing to do with my own ego; each speaker had a difference in sound characteristics, and you cannot tame those with EQ in my opinion. I could be completely wrong, though, and I admit it. I (we) have also heard our speakers in at least 2 other locations, and while there were certainly differences due to the room acoustics, I (we) was still able to hear the general sound of each speaker in each room.

I didn't meant upset you Randy, and I certainly never said you're the only one with bias (who said that?). Meeting you was an absolute treat for me, and I hope to hang out again in the near future. The last thing I wanted was to do was upset/offend you...

I am not offended. Things get heated sometimes.

When people get offended about comments regarding electronics this is what I think of.



Like I said earlier if someone insulted my shirt or pants or something... girlfriend...

It would bother me... but electronics!

LOL

WHAT EVER MAN

LOL

PS I guess if it was on a set of $20k speakers I just slammed money down on I might be... slightly annoyed LOL

^ That was hilarious.

A little levity for the thread. I am in St. Louis getting ready to travel for a trip to Indiana for rememberance and I am in my underwear, wife in pj's and fire alarm just went off. Down 5 floors of stairs and college kids came up.....false alarm "somebody pulled the alarm".

Six foot might be a bit of a under exageration - prolly more like 8 or 9 foot distant. Consider I'm 6'3" and in the pics my legs are still prolly a good six foot away from the left speaker. The vids in my review posts on page 34 show my seating position pretty well.

My opinion was it was a surprisingly good spot when compared to the sweet spot I sat in briefly a couple times as I mentioned before. As to reflections from the vaulted ceiling and comb filtering issues I honestly don't know. I didn't hear anything terrible related to my position or I would have stopped sitting there when I auditioned the sweet spot the few times. I could still definitely hear stereo separation through the auditions! I'm not saying it was the best place, but I don't think it was the worst spot in the room by any means. I was around ear height with most of the tower speakers. It wasn't like I was in a hole or something. At one point someone behind me asked me to move a little bit one way or the other so I would be out of the direct path of the channel to their seating position in the sweet spot - (meaning they at least thought I might be blocking the sound a bit -- so I take that to mean I was in the main sound field). I've heard a lot of folk say a loudspeaker should ideally be on the same plane as your ears. I was pretty much there ------ with the exception of the JTR and Catalyst monoliths on their stands... also if you want to really hear what a speaker is doing when critically listening do you go closer to the speaker or futher away?

Do any of these speakers aim their tweeters up? If not - then I'm not sure why my position was that poor?

No hard feelings man - just discussing. This additional note does not counter the fact the amp may have had problems - it is just discussion about my sitting position solely. I don't sit much further away from my speakers at home in my own room as you'll note in the room pictures in my signature. I've no problem sitting about 8 foot away from speakers and listening from that close...when I wanted to evaluate the Lms5400 subs I sat immediately next to them so I could really hear just the subs. Several times folk walked right up to the speakers to observe their sound in close proximity. I think close listening has merits in addition to flaws.

You're right, it was probably more like 8 feet based on your pics; good call. Yours ears were not at tweeter level, though, which is where most manufacturers request they be (between 36-42 inches generally). You were also sitting off-axis of one speaker more than the other (not centered), so it will affect things. If you think that seat was fine - cool. We can agree to disagree. And yes, no hard feelings. I am glad you sat there, as it allowed you to hear the amplifier flaw on the left channel. Had you not been there at all the distortion may have not been brought up.

Regarding moving closer to a speaker, many designs need a specific distance to allow the drivers to properly blend, else comb filtering will occur. I doubt any of the speakers at the GTG were designed for near-field, and would suspect their performance would worsen when you hit that critical distance (got to close).

This would be a loss for those of us who are unable to attend and enjoy reading/learning from the public discussions that follow.

I have been a lurker on this thread. Some great information - many thanks to all the participants. My only comment is tune out the critics (keep the honest feedback, but ignore the trolls and complainers). There is a lot of value added from GTG's such as these.

+1

Although, I have learned something from the discussion with some of the "critics" as well.

Although, I stand by my general comments, making them personal to Jonathan and nuance was out of line so accept my apologies.

I'm sure you would. I guess Oct is far enough away where I could change my mind....


I say that in jest Randy. The quest for the grail never ends...


That's too bad. I was hoping you'd drag ADTG along, since I doubt the Mrs is going to let him out that weekend. You know most every show has live music, not sure about LSAF though (that's how I got to see/hear John Atkinson play bass..@ CapFest). Can't blame for for passing up listening to stereos vs attending live music btw...I'd do the same.


Yep, but I/we've taken this thread far enough off course with mention of my speakers, which is worse than thread jacking - it's manufacturer self promotion. Feel free to PM me.

Now, there was a nice, peaceful enjoyable loudspeaker GTG in SE WI...

cheers,

AJ

Good speakers properly positioned, simply disappear, generally with no hint of stereo separation, or rather, hard left and right pans. Did you get a good idea of what a soundstage is, with depth, pinpoint imaging and air around each performer/instrument? This experience is what I hoped for you to take away from the GTG. I was surprised to see you sitting on the floor.

Honestly, most audio enthusiasts have no clue what those terms mean, or sound like. They are used to hearing stereo sound come from left or right, not from the middle! 2 channel listening is an experience that few people understand. I didn't for years, until I heard a properly setup system, then I was hooked. Dove right out of car audio and into home audio.

Several of these tracks had very clear channel separation. Sax from left speaker - voice from right - that kind of thing. Sweet spot made the voices sound better - that was the main difference I noticed as I moved in and out of the sweet spot. --- most of that sweet spot audition experience for me occurred Friday night. On Saturday during the meet I only hit the sweet spot a few times.

Very cool GTG ladies and gents. I selfishly enjoy the hell out of the information provided and appreciate the effort.

edit: I want to say that it seems a bit rash at times how people talk to each other on these forums, but in this particular thread you can obviously tell that the disagreements/ conversations are out of passion and love of audio and not grinding of axes which is quite refreshing.

Thanks for sharing,
Jeff

In an anechoic chamber playing a sine wave, there may be some merit to this theory. But in the real world, it is perhaps a bit too simplistic.

If you are playing that middle C on an instrument, for example, the overtone structure of the instrument will be unique to that particular instrument. And since there is no such thing as a speaker that can reproduce a perfectly flat frequency response and each speaker's FR will vary by some degree, each speaker will reproduce that sound in a subtlety unique way.

The environment will also impact the results. Each speaker will vary in terms of off-axis response. So the overtones of that middle C will interact with the room differently based on each speaker's unique dispersion characteristics.

While there is some merit to the theory, we don't live in a theoretical world. In practice, there will be sonic differences that are both measurable and audible.

Of course, this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

- Jim

That makes sense.

And the soundstage and image may also differ. I think a quick switching of speakers back and forth within seconds could identify the differences easier.

Yesterday I redid all the volume matching of my speakers. I was able to switch between speakers within seconds. And I was able to tell the difference between the speakers.

Of course, my speakers are side-by-side and the room acoustics is compromised due to size and side-by-side speakers.

So I take back what I said about speakers sounding the same.

Hypothesis and reality are 2 different things for sure.

But the theory that all great speakers sound fantastic is true for sure.

Here are a couple of thoughts...

First, there is a significant difference between "average" and "peak" power levels. During the tests, while the average power levels were well within the amp's capabilities, transient peaks were likely hitting well north of 250 watts. How audible this clipping was is a matter of debate, but there was definitely clipping taking place.

Secondly, if there was an issue with the left monoblock (and I'm relatively certain there was), there is a high probability that the issue was present with respect to all the speakers. While the distortion was totally noticeable with the left channel when the SoundScape 10's were playing, it was likely present with all the speakers, just to a lesser degree. It is not likely that the monoblock was distortion-free until it hit some threshold. It is more likely that it was progressive in nature. Which means that the higher the sensitivity of the speaker, the less noticeable the distortion would be since less power was being drawn.

I would have to re-read your analysis to see how you compared the various speakers, but I seem to recall that the speaker with the fewest issues was Mark's Catalysts. These speakers were self-powered, so the amp in question was not used.

With that in mind, I think you can rule out anything upstream of the amplifiers. And since I have tested that particular pair of SoundScape 10's at higher SPL's than were used at the GTG and was not able to reproduce the issue, the problem wasn't with the speaker either. That leaves the amp.

I can't speak to the other speakers involved, but I do know that when we test speakers prior to shipment, we stress test with higher SPL levels than were used at the GTG and do not hear what you clearly heard. So my conclusion is that much of what you heard with respect to ALL the speakers (except the Catalysts) was at least somewhat related to the amp.

Who knows, I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other explanation.

- Jim

Nobody, anywhere, ever, has said they cannot hear the difference in individual speakers.

Moving on...

Off topic but if anyone is available on Monday April 30 I might be in the SE Wisconsin area for some listening. PM me here if you're interested.

Where are you going to be? I'd open my home to you.

And I would invade your home and join you.

Jim Salk,

Thanks for your input.

Sorry, but what is the song in the background of this video? I have heard it but cannot put my finger on it, Joe Satriani?

I'm not sure whose house this GTG took place in, but whoever it belongs to: You have an absolutely beautiful home.