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SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 26

post #751 of 1777
I actually created an evaluation form when I started my speaker audition process so I will be bringing several of those along.
post #752 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMFamily View Post

I actually created an evaluation form when I started my speaker audition process so I will be bringing several of those along.

Very cool. One more week!
post #753 of 1777
Thank goodness for free Wi-Fi - sitting in Kalamazoo and I am about to start getting the audition tracks!
post #754 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJHUB View Post

Sorry for being late with the track list. My only excuse is that I have far too much going on. It looks like I'll even be missing the beginning of my own GTG as I have to coach my soccer team that morning. Nuance will be in charge until I get there.

Track list:
"Boxenkiller" by Cyrill Lutzelschwab and Martin Hess
"Ntyilo Ntyilo (The Love Bird)" by Hugh Masakela
"Walking On The Moon" by The Yuri Honing Trio
"Chant" by Foreplay
"Copland - Fanfare For The Common Man" by Erich Kunzel: Cincinnati Pops Orchestra
"Jazz Variants" by Various Artists
"Red Rain (Instrumental)" by Peter Gabriel
"Dream On" by Kelly Sweet
"Just Like Love" by Steve Strauss
"Rubina" by Joe Satriani
"Into The Void" by Nine Inch Nails
"Hells Bells" by AC/DC

Sorry if this list has too many tracks that people aren't familiar with. Nuance and I spent a lot of time reviewing tracks that we feel really display a speaker's strengths and weaknesses. We have great recordings, and ones that aren't so good. We want to hear just how good the speakers can sound, and we want to find out if they fall apart on any particular genre.

This list is not in stone. There is a track coming to us from Dennis Murphy, and Jim Salk supplied 3 of the tracks. If there is anything you hate, be sure to blame Nuance.

Started trying to get all of these tracks to MP3 (to play on my laptop / iPod) and I am struggling to find a few of them. Any suggestions on where to get these:

"Boxenkiller" by Cyrill Lutzelschwab and Martin Hess
"Chant" by Foreplay
"Copland - Fanfare For The Common Man" by Erich Kunzel: Cincinnati Pops Orchestra
"Just Like Love" by Steve Strauss
"Hells Bells" by AC/DC

I could not find these on iTunes (the AC/DC one was a shocker - a bajillion covers though ) - any chance someone could point me in a direction?

Thanks!
post #755 of 1777
ALM

Ran into the same problem you did. If Amazon had cheap used cd's I bought them there. If not, then next Saturday will be the first time I hear the song. Oh well.

David
post #756 of 1777
Thanks - thought I was the only one that could not find them. I will give the used CD route a try as well.
post #757 of 1777
Sorry guys- been out town. I'll check iTunes later and let you know if I can find the proper tracks.
post #758 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pet Motel View Post

I have been highly conflicted about posting concerning the methodology of the upcoming event, and decided to speak what's on my mind.

Being that I'm a firm believer in scientific methods, and understanding the nature of unconscious bias, I'm concerned about the ability of the listeners not to have a preference for what they own. As much as I would like to believe I can be unbiased, not only is that quite likely not realistic, beyond that I'm so familiar with the sound of the speakers that I own, that as well might be cause for what sounds "best" to me.

Does anyone else share my concerns for a sighted test, as opposed to blind testing? As I've never attended an event such as this, I can only hope my thoughts are received in the spirit in which they are offered. Not intending to be disruptive in any way, it has been on my mind quite a bit.

You need fast speaker level switching and two transports playing the same content slightly staggered in the time domain looping. You then flip the speaker level switch back and forth or various sections of music pertaining to frequency and dynamics et al. This is what I do and within a few minutes I know exactly the speakers acoustic properties as my ears perceive it and what pair I like best in the test.

Perhaps someone can bring a QSC Audio Products "ABX Comparator" ?

For methodology checkout

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSHRA

http://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.1534-1-200301-I/en

Somebody at the get-together should have an ABX Comparator switch and test questions/sheets for each listener using ABX/MUSHRA testing methodology.

Here is some software for MUSHRA or ABX testings.

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/msr/people/c...ne/#additional

Max/MSP application

http://cycling74.com/

All one needs to do is come up with a relay that's PC controlled for the A-B speaker switch. The software really doesn't need to be the transport and can simply be used for questioning and statistical analysis.

PS BS.1534 is much more scientifically accurate than older ABX testing methodology.
post #759 of 1777
I sure hope you guys use the following software for testing!

Max/MSP

MUSHRA Max/MSP Patcher

ABX Max/MSP Patcher

If transport isn't from SACD/CD/Bluray/DVD-A then the encodes should be standardized and done with Spoon's dbPowerAmp and each rip should be verified via AccurateRip with cross-pressing verification.

and you guys are sourcing stuff from iTunes and having troubles downloading PIRATED music...



and you're going to use the converters in you iPod/Macbook...

MEGA :ROLLEYES:

I sure hope someone with a clue and a "transparent" converter is involved in the testing... and a decent amp is used... and it's the SAME AMP for each test, same cable, SAME TRANSPORT.

UGG

Any auditioning song should be one you OWN and are very familiar with IE have listen to in the past COUNTLESS TIMES... (is this not OBVIOUS in order to formulate an accurate opinion?) not some afterthought of a teenage song you don't even own, haven't heard in years and need to source... HORRIBLE methodology if these posts represent the testing that's going to be done... It's silly way to test and a FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY is WASTED if the "testing" is done in this "Fun route" way via wobbly pops...

PS if the venders are going to be participating then make dam sure you guys WITHOUT a vested interest have control over the testing and USE THE SOFTWARE I POSTED LINKS TO!

PSS owhh and also go VISIT THE DOCTOR and have the cerumen blown outta your ears! ROTFL
post #760 of 1777
BTW I put my money on Dave with the Raal in the under $5k category even with the TL-QWT bass section on the Phil... it's going to be a TIGHT RACE though! The Phil will be unstoppable in the bass department with 2.0 as is evident in the published plots. Driver optimization IE fabrication tweaks that Dave has access to with Seas might win out in the midrage/high department. Though Dennis's xover design prowess might offset the driver electrical optimization. If these two are to be compared they have to have the same tweeter. I don't want to see ST go against Phil without them both using Raal. Neo3 could be tested against NrT though and that would be fair even though they use different driver types. I expect Phil to start to "compress" at dbs above 92 on the mid/neo8 section from my experience with the driver... But hey who listens to music at like 95-100 db! I do wonder though how it affects ETC B-H window as it pertains to stored energy and decay time and transient "speed". I think both are going to be absolutely AMAZING with mid "slam" going to ST and "sweet smoothness" going to Phil.
post #761 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

That's a great idea; one I've been pondering myself. I'd like the opinion on the majority about this, though, as I don't want this to be too formal. Our goal is to ensure everyone has fun and gets enough listening time in with each speaker. If an evaluation sheet will inhibit that or slow down the process I think we should skip it. Thoughts?

Hi guys,

Just a suggestion....use a prepared form for speaker evaluation, but keep notes simple and for personal use. With the focus of a form, you'll all have a common jumping off point for discussion of speaker attributes (while enjoying that adult beverage!). And you needn't reinvent the wheel. There are many performance evalution models out there to copy. The loftier your goals of evaluation (vs. entertainment and comraderie), of course, the more detailed and formal your data report forms and A/B/X protocols need to be. But that gets to be a lot of tiring work for the attendees.

We've had GTG's that were casual, or formal, or one that was almost like a mini-RMAF. By far the most fun for the attendees was the casual GTG in 2008 where we just listened and pallavered about the speakers...giving each other feedback while knocking down a beverage or two.

The most rewarding, but entailing way too much work, was the big 2009 GTG we had when Jim and Mary Salk attended. We had a couple dozen sponsors for that one. Fabulous time.

The one providing the richest amount of information was in 2010, when Dennis attended. We were reasonably formal with our (listening format) design, speaker presentation, and reporting. But we were drained at day's end.

Once again....I'd suggest taking the FUN route.
post #762 of 1777
^^^

Are the above two posts from S-S jokes? If they are, please disregard this post.

If not...Wow! I feel really sorry for the guys in WI if they have to put up with stuff like this. Here we have a few enthusiasts sharing their gear and opening their homes to strangers for some audio-geek fun (meant with all due affection for the term as I consider myself and some dear friends audio-geeks as well), and we have people tearing apart testing methodologies. I haven't seen where they were planning on publishing their results in an audio review journal or presenting their findings as empirical facts. Further, attempting to put together an ABX or DBX on the fly is, well, crazy, and fruitless as the "community" will tear the reviews apart regardless if their preferred product doesn't come out on top.

I'm not trying to come across as sanctimonious, just shocked at what some are asking others to do.

To the guys in WI, I look forward to reading your impressions, and hopefully you'll have a great time while you're there. Thanks for going through all of this so the rest of us can geek-out by proxy.
post #763 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

Once again....I'd suggest taking the FUN route.

Well said.
post #764 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

^^^

Are the above two posts from S-S jokes? If they are, please disregard this post.

If not...Wow! I feel really sorry for the guys in WI if they have to put up with stuff like this. Here we have a few enthusiasts sharing their gear and opening their homes to strangers for some audio-geek fun (meant with all due affection for the term as I consider myself and some dear friends audio-geeks as well), and we have people tearing apart testing methodologies. I haven't seen where they were planning on publishing their results in an audio review journal or presenting their findings as empirical facts. Further, attempting to put together an ABX or DBX on the fly is, well, crazy, and fruitless as the "community" will tear the reviews apart regardless if their preferred product doesn't come out on top.

I'm not trying to come across as sanctimonious, just shocked at what some are asking others to do.

To the guys in WI, I look forward to reading your impressions, and hopefully you'll have a great time while you're there. Thanks for going through all of this so the rest of us can geek-out by proxy.


Some of the post was tongue in cheek shocker posts but I do mean what I say overall and I do hope they use the SOFTWARE I POSTED LINKS TO!

It would be much easier than trying to put together a spread sheet and printing them out etc.

People attending should seriously checkout my links!

Max/MSP

MUSHRA Max/MSP Patcher

ABX Max/MSP Patcher

Matlab based MUSHRA software.

http://bass-db.gforge.inria.fr/peass/index.html

http://hal.inria.fr/inria-00567152/PDF/emiya2011.pdf

BTW Max/MSP/Jitter is simply THE MOST AMAZING SOFTWARE you'll ever see/use!

Here is a public project using the software tools.

http://cycling74.com/project/a-big-m...ranean-cinema/

And THE THREAD regarding testing encodes and audio gear!

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...p?showforum=40
post #765 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmanick View Post

^^^

Are the above two posts from S-S jokes? If they are, please disregard this post.

If not...Wow! I feel really sorry for the guys in WI if they have to put up with stuff like this. Here we have a few enthusiasts sharing their gear and opening their homes to strangers for some audio-geek fun (meant with all due affection for the term as I consider myself and some dear friends audio-geeks as well), and we have people tearing apart testing methodologies. I haven't seen where they were planning on publishing their results in an audio review journal or presenting their findings as empirical facts. Further, attempting to put together an ABX or DBX on the fly is, well, crazy, and fruitless as the "community" will tear the reviews apart regardless if their preferred product doesn't come out on top.

I'm not trying to come across as sanctimonious, just shocked at what some are asking others to do.

To the guys in WI, I look forward to reading your impressions, and hopefully you'll have a great time while you're there. Thanks for going through all of this so the rest of us can geek-out by proxy.

Pretty much sums up the reason why I was conflicted in mentioning methodology. Whether others consider our impressions useful, or not, this is going to be an informal GTG, sighted, no direct AB switching.

After all is said and done, not sure whether or not I'll even post impressions. I can tell you I relish the thought of being able to hear all of these awesome speakers, and meet a great bunch of audio enthusiasts! NO ONE is going to dampen this experience for me. I'm looking forward to relaxing, and having a good time. Life is stressful enough .
post #766 of 1777
http://soundexpert.org

Provides fantastic standardized test samples and methodology though the granularity of the data is poor do to lack of participation.

http://soundexpert.org/c/document_li...&groupId=10136

http://soundexpert.org/c/document_li...&groupId=10136
post #767 of 1777
Please stop posting here Sold-State. Thanks.
post #768 of 1777
The attendee list on page 17 has been updated and now includes Mark Seaton. He will try to bring speakers, but if not it'll be great to have him with us anyway.
post #769 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The attendee list on page 17 has been updated and now includes Mark Seaton. He will try to bring speakers, but if not it'll be great to have him with us anyway.

Sounds like this is going to be a legendary ID speakers comparison that will be referenced by shoppers for years to come. When is this going to be?
post #770 of 1777
This Saturday - can't wait!
post #771 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The attendee list on page 17 has been updated and now includes Mark Seaton. He will try to bring speakers, but if not it'll be great to have him with us anyway.

As Darth Vader would say, "Impressive.........very impressive".

I can tell it's all about a group of great guys having great fun listening to great speakers and talking about them.

If I lived there, I would come for sure.

It's not about reviewing and testing speakers for money and publishing reviews for some magazines.

It's a chance for those lucky enough to appreciate these great speakers and enjoy the merry company.
post #772 of 1777
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The attendee list on page 17 has been updated and now includes Mark Seaton. He will try to bring speakers, but if not it'll be great to have him with us anyway.

Nice. Looking forward to meeting some of these folks. This GTG is shaping up to be a memorable one! See you boys Saturday.
post #773 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJHUB View Post

"There" is Manitowoc, WI.

Is this where the ice makers are made?
post #774 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

The attendee list on page 17 has been updated

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post21639424
post #775 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

Starting at post #423 is the beginning discussions of the next upcoming GTG.

Thanks,
Brandon[/i]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post21620198
post #776 of 1777
Thanks for the links, Jeff; we should have included them. I sent you the directions and contact info via PM, right?
post #777 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Please stop posting here Sold-State. Thanks.

Hey guy I'm just trying to help out and contribute so you guys do some decent testing!

You'd think people would appreciate me sharing that FANTASTIC Max/MSP based MUSHRA/ABX software...

huh

You have you're wish I'll just be a fly on the wall. Though I do hope to ask questions after as to what the participants think. Do I have your permission to ask questions afterwards regarding the testing Nuance?
post #778 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mudslide View Post

Hi guys,

Just a suggestion....use a prepared form for speaker evaluation, but keep notes simple and for personal use. With the focus of a form, you'll all have a common jumping off point for discussion of speaker attributes (while enjoying that adult beverage!). And you needn't reinvent the wheel. There are many performance evalution models out there to copy. The loftier your goals of evaluation (vs. entertainment and comraderie), of course, the more detailed and formal your data report forms and A/B/X protocols need to be. But that gets to be a lot of tiring work for the attendees.

We've had GTG's that were casual, or formal, or one that was almost like a mini-RMAF. By far the most fun for the attendees was the casual GTG in 2008 where we just listened and pallavered about the speakers...giving each other feedback while knocking down a beverage or two.

The most rewarding, but entailing way too much work, was the big 2009 GTG we had when Jim and Mary Salk attended. We had a couple dozen sponsors for that one. Fabulous time.

The one providing the richest amount of information was in 2010, when Dennis attended. We were reasonably formal with our (listening format) design, speaker presentation, and reporting. But we were drained at day's end.

Once again....I'd suggest taking the FUN route.

Thank you thank you sir. We'll actually be following your advice, which is more than I can say concerning a certain forum member.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMFamily View Post

I actually created an evaluation form when I started my speaker audition process so I will be bringing several of those along.

Would you mind printing like 20? Thanks bud!
post #779 of 1777
SS,

I'm not trying to be rude, but your post history speaks for itself. You are very disruptive and seem to have an agenda of your own that usually contradicts the goals or topic at hand. Had you thoroughly and intently read this entire thread you'd know how things are going to be handled, what equipment will be used and what our goals are. We've got things handled.
post #780 of 1777
I certainly can - realize though that it is nothing special so no eye-rolling when you see it.
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