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SE WI Tower speaker GTG - Page 29

post #841 of 1777
Just got home from an amazing GTG. A special thanks to Terry for opening his home to us and to Jim, Mark and Jeff for bringing some amazing speakers. Everything went very well with one snafu: the SoundScapes were found to have a damaged Accuton midrange driver on the left speaker, which caused cone breakup on certain musical tracks at certain frequencies. This was a total bummer but was the only roadblock we hit of the day. It was an absolute pleasure to meet everyone!

Listening impressions from the masses may be posted here or in a dedicated thread for the results/opinions of this event. I'll let Archaea handle the dedicated thread if that's the route we go.
post #842 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Jim and Dennis both wanted "Fanfare for the Common Man." They also recommended "Chant" by Fourplay and "Jazz Variants" by The Ozone Percussion Group, and it just so happens those are two tracks I had already wanted so it worked out well.

That's funny because it's one of my main test tracks as well as TAPP's Sirius... Also various Kraftwerk tracks like Aero Dynamik, Vitamin and some Donna Summer & Giorgio Moroder like I Feel Love. For modern recording that are "dynamic" I like A.R. Rahman's Slumdog and Tron Legacy soundtrack from Daftpunk. Also Garry Numan and other electronica like Peter Kruder/Peace Orchestra and stuff like PPK Resurrection and it's various mixes like Robots Outro and The Perfect Edit. Who am I is in that list of 10 with Fanfare and Sirius. For female vocals I use Norah Jones, Carole King and Diana Krall. A great NJ track to checkout is the Wax Poetic Tell Me feat. Norah Jones (Temple of Soul Remix). The Carole King SACD remaster is amazing and really shows the engineering on that LP back in the day. Of course I'm joking right... sometimes the best way to spot the accuracy of a loudspeaker is to know mistakes/distortions in classic recordings you've heard thousands of times and to listen to those tracks to see how revealing the speaker is regarding the studio master flaw... or some background noise... The Toccata and Fugue in d minor from Rollerball is another reference for me and in that top ten demo/audition list... it's the defacto Toccata with all it's engineering flaws... a FANTASTIC reference track! Peter Gabriel's stuff is also so well engineered I use it as a reference as well. In particular his LP called Passion (Of These, Hope is in the top ten). Vangelis (Chariots of Fire is in the top ten list)... and others... you get the picture... It's not everyday stuff one would listen to but it's a great selection to showcase a loudspeakers performance.

I'm sure happy to hear everyone had a good time and got home safe and sound. Sorry to hear about the Accuton mid. Those drivers are very very easy to damage and why they have the cage around them.

I can't wait to hear what all you guys thought of the gear. It's all great gear so I can only imagine it was a very close race with taste being the major factor.

PS don't forget Lady GaGa - The Fame Monster as it's one of the best all around albums since Michael Jackson's Thriller and Madonna's Like a Prayer in terms of "dynamic" pop music!
post #843 of 1777
Disclaimer: All of the below is opinion and has no scientific base.

Sound Quality: All the speakers sounded really good. The only mirror flaw I could pick out was the Philharmonic 2 had a small issue in the upper bass/lower midrange where some of the vocals sounded a little thick.

Bass: The room had an issue in the bass region that was very apparent on some of the speakers. The Seaton was the best sounding in the bass region and then the Salk Tower (didn’t excite the room). The Salk SoundScape 10, Salk HT2-TL, Philharmonic 2, and Ascend Tower all had an over tone in the bass region that was clearly a room issue. The JTR didn’t have significant output in this region to judge (designed to be used with a subwoofer).

Output: The Seaton, JTR, Salk SoundScape 10 didn’t show any signs of stress. The Salk HT2-TL, Philharmonic 2 presented a slight bit of strain. The Salk Song Tower and the Ascend Tower showed a little more strain than the others.

Voicing: The Seaton was the most laid back, the JTR was a hair more forward and the rest were all a hair more forward that and similar to each other.

Notes: The Salk SoundScape 10 had a defective midrange which probably masked some of its strengths.
post #844 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

Playing around now. Meet is finished. Half the folk have already left. Great get-together! Enjoying listening to the experts discuss at this time!

Mark Seaton has a certain video I hope he'll upload. It has two things in common - 1) Justin Bebier and 2) JTR Speakers!

Yes, Archaea REQUESTED Justin Bebier
post #845 of 1777
Just got home as well and wanted to say thanks again to Nuance and TJHub for putting the whole thing together and to Jim, Jeff, and Mark for bringing some great speakers - IMO, they were all well worth the trip to hear them.

I have quite a few photos, but for now you all will have to settle for a couple group shots!



post #846 of 1777
Can't wait to hear more/see more....
post #847 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

The only mirror flaw I could pick out was the Philharmonic 2 had a small issue in the upper bass/lower midrange where some of the vocals sounded a little thick.

Was there any stuffing in the midrange chamber of the Phils? I think the SoundScapes and the Phils need at least a puff of polyfil to kill the chamber resonance. It just takes a light puff. Dennis or Jim please correct me if I am wrong.

Bob
post #848 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsimms View Post

Was there any stuffing in the midrange chamber of the Phils? I think the SoundScapes and the Phils need at least a puff of polyfil to kill the chamber resonance. It just takes a light puff. Dennis or Jim please correct me if I am wrong.

Actually, to me it sounds like the room treatments absorbed too much of the rear wave.
post #849 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

Actually, to me it sounds like the room treatments absorbed too much of the rear wave.

A puff won't dampen the loudness of the back wave, it will just kill the chamber resonance.

Bob

Edit: Blow into a coke bottle and you will hear a resonance. Toss in just one square of toilet tissue in the bottle and it won't resonate.
post #850 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsimms View Post

A puff won't dampen the loudness of the back wave, it will just kill the chamber resonance.

You misunderstood me. I wasn't there, but look at the second photo posted by ALMFamily. Giant absorption panels right behind the speakers.

I would expect that to shift the tonal balance of the Philharmonics, which I believe are voiced with the expectation that the rear wave is reflected or diffused forward.
post #851 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

All the speakers sounded really good. The only mirror flaw I could pick out was the Philharmonic 2 had a small issue in the upper bass/lower midrange where some of the vocals sounded a little thick.

That's exactly what I expected... at or near the lowpass of the Neo8 at around 640 Hz to 900ish Hz

BUT

That must only come into play when you're really pushing them REALLY HARD like over 95 db or more right? I bet that Neo8/Raal combo is really something with female vocals and orchestral music!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

The Seaton, JTR, Salk SoundScape 10 didn’t show any signs of stress. The Salk HT2-TL, Philharmonic 2 presented a slight bit of strain. The Salk Song Tower and the Ascend Tower showed a little more strain than the others.

By strain I take it you mean distortion or compression at high SPL? What SPL levels were you guys reaching to when this "strain" came into play. This also doesn't surprise me as Dave's midwoofers are rather small really but this is apart of the design philosophy for baffle dimensions and that is a rather large room by the looks of it...

I sure wish you guys had a Jed Kunz Dynamic 4CC, Duet 10 Accuton and a Zaph ZRT to compare against Phil, ST and QWT Song and Jim's flagship choo choo. I have a feeling those two JUST MIGHT... and I KNOW Duet 10 will...

hahah

This anecdotal evidence has me rethinking DIY again!

LOL

PS 4 RS-180s has gotta out perform 2 5.5" mineral filled midwoofers right! Plus the Tangband W4-1337 is BRILLIANT for midrange...

owhh JED!!!

LOL

PS How about a Duet 10 L26 ROY C90 with Raal 70-20XR Jed in kit at $3500 without cabs ! That's about the only one that could take on the choo choo! Shame the C90 was damaged as you all sure were in for a TREAT!
post #852 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMFamily View Post

Just got home as well and wanted to say thanks again to Nuance and TJHub for putting the whole thing together and to Jim, Jeff, and Mark for bringing some great speakers - IMO, they were all well worth the trip to hear them.

I have quite a few photos, but for now you all will have to settle for a couple group shots!




Okay, start naming names in these pictures.
post #853 of 1777
I just want to give a big thanks to the manufacturers that attended and brought or provided speakers: Dennis Murphy, Jeff Permanian, Jim Salk, and Mark Seaton. I find it incredible you guys do things like this. Jim's drive was really long, but at least he had Pete to keep him company! Mark Seaton was with us until 10:30pm!

I'll be honest and say that what makes these GTG's fun is the people. It was just great to meet and talk to all of you. I had a level of expectations, and they were exceeded in every way. Thank you all for that!

Also not to be forgotten is Nuance for being the one to get this GTG started, and include the manufacturers. Maybe things got a little big, but I have already forgiven him. Thanks Brandon!!
post #854 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by fsimms View Post

Was there any stuffing in the midrange chamber of the Phils? I think the SoundScapes and the Phils need at least a puff of polyfil to kill the chamber resonance. It just takes a light puff. Dennis or Jim please correct me if I am wrong.

Bob

I'm assuming the Phil 2's had about 1/3 fill--at least that's what I recommended. I can't say as I've noticed any thickness on voices, but then I don't use room treatments near the rear wave.
post #855 of 1777
Nuance, If you or Terry want to start a new thread then either of you should (the one to do it. I think the idea works well but I don't want the thead in my name, I didn't do any work on this meet at all. If you make a new meet thread just link it here and ask no one but those that attended the meet to post in the thread for a few days until the attendees have all reserved posts on the first page. This worked well for all three of the recent subwoofer meet threads.
post #856 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Murphy View Post

I'm assuming the Phil 2's had about 1/3 fill--at least that's what I recommended. I can't say as I've noticed any thickness on voices, but then I don't use room treatments near the rear wave.

I can only imagine it's when they pushed them over 96db or something like that and also back wave room treatments and perhaps not ideal fill BUT it does hint at the limitations of Neo8 crossed as low as the design calls for. Nothing is perfect, you know that, and there are tradeoffs... Perhaps a custom BG unit? They really need to make a newer neoplanar specifically for midrange use. I guess the other solution is to use more than one but then costs start to really climb through the roof. I've heard line arrays with the PDR push 120 db with non of the 600-1200 compression.

I could find out in about two minutes using Shabba Ranks if this is a property of the design.

Mr. Lover Man



SHABBA!!!



PS did the "thickness" of the voice sound like in that video? LOL
post #857 of 1777
Were the Song Tower and Sierra Tower sufficient for a room that size?
post #858 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by funkmonkey View Post

Sweet! Now I know where to get my next X-mas tree!

-just kidding bud... looks like a lot of work. Nice job. Now are you sure that it was the snow that caused the tree to break, or was it that you turned your subs up to 3


Hahah Good one...

Its been alot of work, but certainly alot of fun... and worth it...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Were the Song Tower and Sierra Tower sufficient for a room that size?

With them crossed over to a sub, they work nicely.... But running full range on their own they will struggle a touch, but only when pushed hard - they will not have an issue filling the room...
post #859 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

Disclaimer: All of the below is opinion and has no scientific base.

Sound Quality: All the speakers sounded really good. The only mirror flaw I could pick out was the Philharmonic 2 had a small issue in the upper bass/lower midrange where some of the vocals sounded a little thick.

Bass: The room had an issue in the bass region that was very apparent on some of the speakers. The Seaton was the best sounding in the bass region and then the Salk Tower (didn't excite the room). The Salk SoundScape 10, Salk HT2-TL, Philharmonic 2, and Ascend Tower all had an over tone in the bass region that was clearly a room issue. The JTR didn't have significant output in this region to judge (designed to be used with a subwoofer).

Output: The Seaton, JTR, Salk SoundScape 10 didn't show any signs of stress. The Salk HT2-TL, Philharmonic 2 presented a slight bit of strain. The Salk Song Tower and the Ascend Tower showed a little more strain than the others.

Voicing: The Seaton was the most laid back, the JTR was a hair more forward and the rest were all a hair more forward that and similar to each other.

Notes: The Salk SoundScape 10 had a defective midrange which probably masked some of its strengths.

Probably not the most professional thing for a manufacturer to do.
post #860 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post


Probably not the most professional thing for a manufacturer to do.

Huh? If you meant his post I thought it was tasteful and I appreciated it. I'm confused...
post #861 of 1777
+++++1 ?????
post #862 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Probably not the most professional thing for a manufacturer to do.



Where did Political Correctness ever get us?

Thanks for the opinions Jeff. I'm not sure how saying "every speaker sounded very good" is distasteful. Especially considering the Soundscapes had a broken midrange and the Philharmonics were probably at an disadvantage with the absorbed backwave as far what you heard. It's clear you had fun there. I would expect the same from Jim, Mark, Dennis, and Dave, as the lot of you are just plain classy people. Hiding one's opinion does not make someone classier, even if there's a financial bias.
post #863 of 1777
Perhaps I'm in the minority here. I always appreciated the way Mark Seaton handles these affairs. He might address comments about his own speakers' performance but would not discuss other manufacturers' products relative to his own.
post #864 of 1777
When can we expect to see some of the respomces from the folks who attended the gtg in regards to the performance and comparisons between all of these great speakers? I am so eager to hear from you guys!
post #865 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Permanian View Post

Disclaimer: All of the below is opinion and has no scientific base.

I appreciate your post, and thank you. This is what I like to read, and
helps to look at things from different stand points.
post #866 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

not discuss other manufacturers' products relative to his own.

The only comments he even made about his own speakers was that they were more laid back than most, but also more forward than the Seatons. These are subjective voicing differences, and I'm sure Dennis, Mark, Dave, and Jim are perfectly fine with such a basic assessment.

Unless you think pointing out that speakers with dual 12" woofers, a 12" midrange, and a compression tweeter, > 100db sensitivity.... sounded less strained at very high SPLs than a 2-way MTM with 5.25" midwoofers, is unprofessional. That's pretty much.............. common sense. That the Salk Soundscape 10s did not sound strained is the real useful information, as their low sensitivity would lead some to believe they are compressed sounding.
post #867 of 1777
I appreciate Jeff's candor and his ability to describe what he heard. For me, everyone's opinion of all the speakers present is important since i am baseing a speaker purchase on these opinions.
post #868 of 1777
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcousticSoul View Post

For me, everyone's opinion of all the speakers present is important since i am baseing a speaker purchase on these opinions.

+1 as I am too...
post #869 of 1777
I didn't get a chance to meet everyone, and some people are missing from this photo, including Mark Seaton, Jim Salk (pictured on the second photo that ALMFamily (Joe) posted), Jay (Pet Motel), PAD and me Alex (pennynike1, a.k.a. the only person wearing shorts). In any event, here are the people that I spoke directly with and that I can identify in the photo:

1) Our host, TJHUB (Terry) is seated on the left couch looking at his computer.
2) Gregg (Terry's friend) is seated on the left side of the middle couch.
3) Jeff Permanian of JTR speakers is on the left behind the middle couch.
4) Nuance (Brandon) is in the middle behind the middle couch.
5) Justin is to the right behind the middle couch.
6) Mrs. Nuance (Brandon's wife) is seated wearing blue.
7) Randy Bessinger is seated to the right of Mrs. Nuance wearing a red shirt.
8) Jonathen (Archea) is sitting on the floor up front (waiting for the opportunity to hear the live track of Justin Bieber).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALMFamily View Post



post #870 of 1777
I thought that Jeff's post was tasteful and respectful mrlittlejeans. It is his opinion and offers a viewpoint from a professional who has an ear for the technical side of things. People are certainly free to disagree with his opinions, but I see nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion on what his ears told him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Probably not the most professional thing for a manufacturer to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Perhaps I'm in the minority here. I always appreciated the way Mark Seaton handles these affairs. He might address comments about his own speakers' performance but would not discuss other manufacturers' products relative to his own.
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