Denon 2011 lineup. - Page 9

Yes they are, they are history!! My Denon rep actually told me this about a month ago. Very exciting actually. However with us not being a CI dealer, I hope that doesn't mean we wont be able to sell the new 2112, 2312 and 3312 receivers. I would hate to think I no longer have a 33xx receiver to sell, its kinda tough selling big powerful speakers and only having 90 watt/$500 receivers. Oh well time will tell.

Ed

Hi guys-I am looking for a new AVR-I looked at this because I am interested in being able to use AirPlay from my ipad2. In researching this, I found that Marantz offered this in 2010, but only on the 7005 and then you had to pay to activate this (that's beyond reasonable in my opinion). So, I now see that Denon is offering the AirPlay in some of their 2011 receivers-hopefully you will not have to pay something after the fact to use it. Without really ticking anybody off-I know that some of you own current Denon products or may have in the past (as I have)-do you think that the quality has gone down in the last 5 or so years. I currently own a 6 year old Yamaha, which has great sound, but have beeen told by a Yamaha dealer that the new units are "poc" regarding sound quality.
What is your honest opinion regarding Denon-both from sound quality and reliability? I am very reluctant to purchase almost any receiver brand that is assembled in China.
Thanks for any input.

Airplay is included from what I heard, not a paid FW update.

You should not be reluctant on anything produced in China as they have factories that are huge and have ultra modern assembly lines against better name electronic gear vendors.

Sometimes with any name brand AVR you have issues, for example the AVR-3310 had some bad network cards, but the AVR-3311 didn't have the same issues. But overall Denon's build quality is sound, and they offer a lot for the buck, especially in meeting their amp output spec's against 5 channels loaded. It to be expected that you might have a couple of initial minor FW fixes for minor operation issues like any receiver, but hey all these now can be updated via network.

So did I miss it or is there no announcement for a 4812?

As stated earlier the AVR-4312 (Sept?) is considered the new high end, the AVR-4810 has no upgrade path at this time, while the AVR-5308CI and the AVP-A1HDCI has a hardware upgrade* coming this October to bring some of the features that the current AVR-4311 has.

*Those features being added are Audyssey MultEQ XT32 (including Audyssey Pro), Audyssey DSX Surround Processing, Dolby PLIIz Surround Processing, 3D Video Pass-through via HDMI (HDMI 1.4a)

Damn Denon is making this hard on me. I was going to pass on the 3312CI because of the China made and look more at a discounted 4311 in a few months.

I realize the "lower" price of $999 for an AVR-3312CI is appealing to many, but Denon continues their long slide of reducing internal amp (sound) quality, in favor of gee-whiz features.

The new amp specs/weight of the 3312CI correspond to the AVR-1603 from several years ago. That was a $299 MSRP receiver!

I would not compare the 3312CI to a 1603 GEEZ.....

what evidence, beyond weight, do you have that Denon is reducing amp quality and sound quality?

sound quality is better than it has ever been, thanks to exponential improvements in DSP processing, lossless audio, Audyssey MultEQ / Dynamic EQ, etc. And Denon AVR's continue to bench test very well.

BTW - your claim about "specs" is totally false with the 1603 - it was spec'd at 80W/ch with 0.08% THD. Again, I think all you are looking at is weight and making a false conflation with sound quality + amp power.

So you are comparing a 2002 AVR-1603 (80 watts x5) weighing 22.9 lbs, to the new 2011 AVR-3312 (125 watts x7) weighing 26 lbs. Guess a 80 watt receiver would be a lot cheaper back in 2002, but shouldn't you be comparing this to a $529 AVR-1912 as that is more then a match for it.

plus, if anyone has ever owned an older Denon receiver and also a contemporary one, you would know that many ancillary pieces have gotten lighter/cheaper that have nothing to do with internal components. Old high-end units used to be larger, have these burly heavy metal chassis, and metal faceplates... nowadays it's plastic faceplates, shallower depth, etc.

here's a concrete example of why comments like the above are foolish....

bench-tested Denon receivers from different "eras" at the same magazine, same methodology:

Denon AVR 2803: http://www.hometheater.com/content/d...-labs-measures

Weight: 28.7 lbs

"This graph shows that the AVR-2803's left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 126.9 watts and 1% distortion at 137.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 83.7 watts and 1% distortion at 83.2 watts. With five channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 35.3 watts and 1% distortion at 40.6 watts."

Denon AVR 2311: http://www.hometheater.com/content/d...-labs-measures

Weight: 23.8 lbs

"This graph shows that the AVR-2311CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 126.3 watts and 1 percent distortion at 154.3 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 154.6 watts and 1 percent distortion at 198.8 watts. With five channels driving 8-ohm loads, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 83.3 watts and 1% distortion at 91.5 watts."

If you don't believe Home Theater Mag, here is a british mag (Home Cinema Choice) review of the same models corroborating these results:

AVR-2311 (measured at 81W/ch with 5ch driven): http://hcc.techradar.com/reviews/new...eiver-20-01-11
AVR-2803 (measured at 50W/ch with 5ch driven): http://hcc.techradar.com/node/3172

Hmmm.... from the c.2002 AVR-2803 they shaved off 5lbs on the "cheaper" and lighter contemporary model, AVR-2311.... yet the new model absolutely CRUSHES the 2803 in 5-channels driven and 4-ohm performance.

Oh and the legendary 36lb AVR-3803? Also only 50W/ch with 5-channels driven (at 0.6% THD)! http://hcc.techradar.com/node/2964

I'm hoping may know the answer to this. I noticed on Denon's Website in regard to the new AVR-3312ci receiver. According to the list, the new 3312 does not do TrueHD. Is this the actual case? Or is it that Dolby Digital Plus is becoming the new standard? Is TrueHD backwards compatible with Plus?

Thanks

Of course it does Dolbly True HD, and all the other lossless codecs. The other way around. Dolby Digital Plus is a lossy codec. See this Dolby fact URL

According to this list comparision here,
Here, it doesnt have a check next to TrueHD at all. You have to scroll down a bit to find it. I hope your right, but its odd they would leave it unchecked if the format is supported.

Having decoders that do DTS HD MA and Dolby True HD in AVR's are so standard that its taking for granted.

Its just the usual posted omissions and errors that the webmaster needs to correct on the very recent 3312CI pages on Denon's site.

Im just making sure. I'm thinking about replacing my 3808 with a new 3312 unit.

^^
Make sure it meets all your requirements as the 43XX series replaced the 3808.

Also note that the Denon webpage spec sheets have been hosed up since last year and in fact are still messed up. They also have apparently not QA'd their new XX12 webpages either prior to publishing.

Batpig,

I'm not saying Denon is better or worse then anybody else but I certainly wouldn't use those screw ball tests in determining if an amplifier is more powerful or less powerful then a new unit or an old unit, even using the same publication as all of those publications have steered people to draw wrong conclusions on what receiver is more and less powerful in real world applications. Those tests simply indicate which receiver allows more through without accurate thermal output information you have no idea how it performs...

You've simply shown that one receiver might have thermal limiters while another lets more pass through in order too 'look better' for reviewers 'measurement tests'. The most glaring contradiction I've seen in some time was the Pioneer Elite SC-07 vs the Yamaha Z7. The Yamaha in real world testing was much more powerful. The test methods used in your examples don't always lead to the right conclusions. I'm not saying this is the case with the new Denon product however I might add that the measurements given certainly wouldn't lead me to believe newer and lighter is more powerful.

I don't know why people don't look at numbers before they run their mouth and end up looking dumb. I like how your post has facts instead of blanket statements that have no basis in reality. If I worked for a receiver company I would put a 50lb brick in every receiver because a bunch of people around here would buy it.

So the question is, when will we see either the 1912, 2112 or 2312 selling? I've been without an AVR for 3 months now and I'm desperately needing one.

Unless you absolutely must have the new features, I'd suggest looking at last year's models right now. I was able to get the last AVR-891 at Fry's for a REALLY, REALLY good clearance price today. Prices at Amazon have been dropping like crazy lately too.

I was on the fence between the 891/2311ci and the new 2112, but after reading through some of the problems people were having with the 3311ci vs the "dumb receivers," I decided that a solid dumb receiver would work fine for me-- I can even add an Apple TV and still save hundreds of dollars.

If you are still planning to wait, the new IN-command receivers will be available in May, according to Hi Def Digest, eCoustics and every other source on google news.

I actually got the 22lb weight spec and 90w rating for the AVR-3312CI from the Denon site. When you click on the Specification Sheet for the AVR-3312CI, it actually downloads the spec sheet for the AVR-2112CI. I did not look closely enough at the header. Denon has an error and should update their site, I made an error as well.

So, my comparison is probably more valid between the AVR-1603 and the AVR-2112CI. Those two units have practically the same weight and power rating.

I suggest you all read this article: http://www.audioholics.com/education...nology/trading

If you think Denon can shave 10lbs+ from an amplifier section (smaller/less transformer and caps) and keep the same sound quality, you haven't heard many of their receivers.

And wattage ratings mean little, even when tested on a bench. Those are static loads they feed them, and rarely have any provisions for measuring the varying impedance that a real-world speaker provides to the amp.

Before you think I'm a Denon-hater, realize that I use the AVP-A1HDCI in my theater room, and the AVR-5800 in my bedroom. And I've owned lots of other Denon A/V receivers over the past 10 years. One thing is certain, whenever they cut weight, the new model has never sounded better or more powerful.

If you think "DSP processing, lossless audio, Audyssey MultEQ / Dynamic EQ, etc." makes for better sound quality over genuine robust amplifier design, I invite you over to hear the AVR-5800 (has really none of those things above) in a head to head match up with the AVR-3311CI. You will be shocked at how weak and thin the newer model sounds.

Sam I said what was stated in Gene's August 2010 article online here when Denon started to add functionality over amp capacity when they did the 2809 -> 3310, and the 3808 -> 4310 models. But then Denon got back to redesigning better models, the 4311 was a real improvement (built for 4 ohm operation) and to a lessor degree so was the 3311. Now Denon seems to be concentrating on not only the audio capabilities, network capabilities, but also their interface and operation all at once. So that article is really not applicable to the xx12 line.

I would take the 3311 any day of the week. I mean its MSRP is $1199 while the 5800 was $3800 so Im not sure if we are comparing apples to apples here. It will have enough power for most 8ohm 90db speakers unless you are using it in a cathedral. If the 3311 is clipping it wont sound as good as the 5800 but its pretty easy to add an amp, which is what most people will do when they need more power. The 3311 with an XPA5 would still be less than half the price of the 5800 if power is all your worried about. In my opinion that would sound better because I know how effective Audyssey is. I've seen people go from Denon 3803 to a 1911 and say the 1911 sounded better due to Audyssey.

It seems really obvious Denon has but more attention on streaming features and user-interface with this new line of "IN-Command" receivers. Yes, they mention sound quality attention, but it seems to take second place.

But, that is what the market wants. Heck, I like that stuff too! The market has changed over what was desired 15 or even 10 years ago.

I still think the Audioholics article holds true. Just as when it was written, Denon is trying to cram more features in, at a lower price. From the article, " The bottom line is if you want bleeding edge technology on the cheap, something has to give". I don't see how that has changed. If anything it has increased over the past 2 product cycles, with Denon moving most receiver manufacturing to China.

I'm not trying to rock a cathedral, I mean that those older, bigger receivers sound better at even the lowest of volumes. You don't have to get anywhere near the clipping limits of the 3311 to hear the difference.

Possibly. In a mediocre room, with a movie, I can see that. But put those two head-to-head with just straight up stereo with a high quality SACD or CD. The flaws/differences become very obvious.

first, where are they shaving 10+ lbs? Second, I have indeed heard MANY of their receivers


I've read it plenty of times and linked many other people to it. Yes, the main thrust of the article is correct. Receivers in general weigh less and aren't as powerful as in the past... but that is mostly about satisfying audiophile smugness and not that much about sound quality, which has improved tremendously.


False. Never? Really? NEVER? Guess what: people who make absolute statements are people who are wrong. And with such certainty!

I have personally gone from a bulky, heavy, powerful $1200msrp AVR-3803 to a cheap, light, lower end model like AVR-789 or 2310, and the new models sound MUCH better thanks to MultEQ + Dynamic EQ for the real-world uses in my living room.


They do. Very much so. Perhaps if you have such a narrow scope of use that you define "sound quality" as the ability to drive big, low sensitivity speakers to ridiculous volumes with all DSP turned off, then sure. But considering that 99% of the time people aren't doing this, the lower-powered AVR with better processing will sound better in all these other situations.


so false it's not even funny. Dynamic EQ is a miracle technology for low volume listening.

most people don't do that. Rather, most people do THIS:

That's why you are wrong. Because for the way most people actually use their receivers -- to watch TV and movies and listen to music at moderate volumes in mediocre rooms -- the newer, lighter, wimpy-amped receivers with their fancy DSP chips and modern processing will sound signficantly better.

Look, I get where you are coming from, you are an old school purist "screw the DSP garbage, power is everything" guy who likes to do squats with their amplifiers to build muscle mass, but can we drop this and get back to discussing the new models and FOR ONCE avoid the "they don't make 'em like they used to!" hand-wringing that has to rear its head every single year in every single "new Brand X receivers" discussion thread? Does there have to be one of you EVERY year?

Ok getting back to the topic.

New now online:
AVR-2112CI Owners Manual
AVR-2312CI Owners Manual


Repeat posting:
AVR-3312CI Owners Manual

fingers crossed

the manuals were actually available a day or two ago, but thanks for posting the links... I'm impressed that they dropped the "Advanced" GUI all the way to the 2312 level, and it looks like GUI/volume overlay will go all the way down to 1912. I definitely think it's time that the old C64 black & white block text went away

in general though -- other than networking and GUI overlay trickling way down the lineup -- from what I can tell most functionality is the same as last year.