Official LG xxLK520 xxLK450 - Page 51

Sounds fair - I'll do that

We can argue back and forth or just let owners decide what they want to do, which is all I started to try and do. Which was to present what they can do, make their own efforts to see how their TV can be adjusted with or with or other aids. I gave reference to both sides, plus my own experience. You only present a "must do it this way" position. If I was dogmatic I would not give reference to material as I did. I believe a metered calibration is more exact and has merit, providing it stays accurate, is accurate for all TVs (which we know it may not be), and is the decision of the TV owner. I also believe after making comparisons to settings made with the Spyder 3 I had as well as the X-Rite D2 to manual settings, that manual settings, if properly done, can improve picture quality over stock out of the box settings. Including 2-Point gray scale correction once it is understood. If you do not either understand with what I've presented or just don't agree; that is ok. But that should be enough for everyone here. No need to keep arguing.

Here's a good reference:

Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, or a particular group or organization[1]. It is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted, or diverged from, by the practitioners or believers.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

I finally was able to confirm the pixel shape of my LG 42" Lk530-UC.AUSYLJR TV that I purchased back in October 2011 using a 20x magnifier lens. It is indeed chevron-shaped pixels(<<<<<) pointed in a direction that resembles a (Less Than) Math symbol. I know I'm late in confirming the pixel shape but I guess it's better late than never. I'm feeling rejoice as my LK530 is in the S-IPS club.

Congratulations! The "Y" in the 4th position of the product code has pretty much been reliable for determining S-IPS panels. But great that you were able to actually see it for yourself. I think Otto is gone for the day. Haven't "seen" him for awhile.

I absolutely agree with you that grayscale can not properly set without a meter.

BUT, let's say I don't have a meter and when I put up a 80% gray window pattern it's got a pink tint to it (after setting basic controls properly). If I am able to use the 2 point white balance controls to remove that pink tint, and the picture looks better as a result; why shouldn't I make this adjustment?

I see your point; however, I wouldn't call it a grayscale calibration since the process is highly subjective and prone to error. I would say it is more so just tweaking picture settings to meet personal preferences.

Overall, I'm just saying their is a big difference between the two approaches and the latter isn't truly calibration nor should it be referred to as such.

True, but it's not dogma if it's fact. If the discussion was instead about gravity or evolution, would it be dogmatic to insist those things absolutely and positively 100% exist? I know those are extreme examples, but I think you get my point.

Anyway, you can believe what you want but there is no proper method to calibrate grayscale without a reliable meter, especially not by the standards of 2012.

Sigh, your example is a good example of what I am saying. But apparently he is so set on believing that any adjustment to a visible error on 2-Point gray scale is more erroneous than what existed before doing it that he can't get past that. And, he is hung up on terms. I never used the word "calibration" and even said it does not amount to a full blown 10 or 20 point calibration. But I can say for a fact two things. Having owned two different meters in the recent past and also doing purity adjustment on TVS for years before there were any colorimeters, can result in a gray scale closer the the mark in the case where there is visible tint to something as simple as a 2-Point high and low value adjustment.

I never said this takes the place of a metered calibration. And, unlike him, I can see both sides of it. He won't even see that i said a metered full calibration would certainly be more accurate. But to him, any alternative is out of the question. As I said, let a reader choose to do what they wish . For gosh sakes folks . .. this is only TV and if making some minor adjust makes for better picture quality with some simple built in tools as LG provides, so be it.

I don't think you get my points. I never said it was a calibration. . . never said making a correction to a visible tint in the 2-Point High and Low adjusts was calibration. .. . and said it does not amount to a full blown meter calibration. Try re-reading my original post without all the frustration and anger. Show me where I said it was a "calibration"?

Show me in our interchange today where I said it was equal to a "calibration"? I said gray scale correction if a visible tint was present. I also said in the first post you took issue with Post # 1525 :

"This does not amount to "calibrating" your TV. It will get the gray scale a bit closer though, if there are obvious tints to both 2-Point screens. "

But you seem so bent on your position you can not read anything without your own predisposition. Ergo. . . dogma.

As far as facts go. It is fact that adjusting out some visible tint in the 2-Point High and Low gray scale setting for ths LG TV does result in better picture quality. It will help remove a great deal of the yellow/green tint of the warm color temperature setting some owners experience.

My first post was addressed to an owner who asked about it and apparently wanted to try it. To admonish and forbid a TV owner to try and make adjustments on his own TV is a bit much and obsessive to any observer.

Again, this is only consumer grade TV here of low to mid price value. I understand your zeal for calibration. It's great, gets the most out of a TV with a good meter if you wish to spend the money. An owner can also remove visible tint in the 2-Point and gainn improved picture quality, albeit not a calibration. I have said this many times in the past. Maybe there is something else behind your motives?

If you actually read what I wrote I never referred to it as "calibration" . In fact, I stated otherwise . . " this does not amount to a full blown meter calibration."

All this isn't helping any new owners who happen in here.

Why raise all this ruckus? Why can't we all just get along?

Indeed

Well. . . . "It wasn't me, it was Julie!" Rocketman

Haha- well I had to google it to understand it. I'll have to add that to my "must watch" list.

Good luck to your Pack tomorrow.

I don't believe there are two sides to it when it comes to getting an accurate grayscale on the TV. In fact, I believe trying to set the 2-pt or 10-pt grayscale controls without a meter would actually make the grayscale less accurate, even if it subjectively appeared better to the viewer. So, in that respect, I don't believe what you suggest is a viable alternative to a meter. If I had no meter, I would leave all advanced picture settings including grayscale/gamma/cms alone. I simply would not recommend adjusting any of those picture controls without a meter as I'd likely just be making things worse and not even realizing it without a meter to verify my new settings.


I disagree here as well as "better" is a subjective measure here.


I agree, this argument isn't really helping new owners and I'm getting tired of repeating myself again and again. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

To new owners setting up the picture controls on their TV, keep in mind that not all settings included in the user menu are meant to be set by eye with test patterns alone. In particular, the 2 and 10-point grayscale/gamma controls and the CMS. The basics can and should be set by eye with test patterns, preferably in DVD or BD format as the USB input may behave differently from Component or HDMI.

There's no point in arguing this. Some folks just won't believe until they finally put a meter on their eye-ball "calibrated" display and see just how far they are off.

OTOH, if one can find or construct a proper optical comparator, they might have a better shot, although OC work can be stymied by mismatched luminance between the OC and Display targets, and the only way to be sure you've matched the luminance is to use a meter ... so the cycle of uncertainty continues ...

Neither of you have read and understood much of what I wrote:


I did make comparison to changes made manually with the meters mentioned before and after. When correction was made visually to remove any visible tint to both the High and Low 2-Point screen on the LG the meters validated it got closer to an ideal gray scale. Your statements that making such a correction visually are based on your dogmatic belief that only a meter can make it better and making such corrections visually would be worse. That is wrong and also a subjective statement. You have no basis for this whatsoever. If it is visually better , , it IS better.

New Owners:

Feel free to become familiar with any of the adjusts available on your new LG TV. Read your manual, articles online and determine what you are comfortable doing yourself.


1. To new owners of these great LG TVs, if you find your TV's picture has a colored tint to it with B&W material or an all white screen has red, green, yellow/green, or blue tints to it; you can check the Method setting in the menu and select 2-Point.

2. Two consecutive screen will appear with Red, Green, and Blue contrast and brightness settings. The first screen will be lighter, the contrast screen. If it has any tint to it you can try reducing whatever color or combination of colors you need to reduce the tint. Remember. . . Yellow= green-red combination.

3. The second screen is the Red, Green, and Blue Brightness screen and also may have some tint. Usually it is closer to gray than the contrast or previous brighter screen. If it does have any tint, feel free to make some adjustment to remove any tint using small increments.

4. Check your TV after these adjustments and see if B&W material looks less tinted than before. If not, or you are not pleased, you can always return the 2-Point settings to the original "0" positions.

5. This is not a calibration of your TV, but it will result in better picture quality once you become familiar with these adjusts. If you do not get the results you want, you can always purchase a meter or have someone do it for you $$$.


Regardless, enjoy your new TV and have some fun while learning to whatever extent you wish and how to do that!

Cheers!

Well said Phase 700B, sorry I have caused such an argument but I think I have the picture much better now, seems there are no hints of colours in the grey or white,thanks everyone

Oh, it was not you. This happens often at times. Sorry this has turned into a bit of a rukus.

Everyone here has the same interest. How we get there and to what extent, as you've seen, can differ. To some, only complete accuracy with instruments is "right" and any other visual improvement is not. If it looks better to you and that is as far as you wish to go, then enjoy.

Be aware, as I have stated previously this does not amount to a calibration and colors may still be off from the ideal. When you can try the AVS HD709 disc, you can use more of the user controls to make some color corrections.

Well said, though it seems some of these folks may never put a decent meter on their display and therefore never know how far off the 'better' picture actually is. I guess it's their loss, not mine.

However you wish to look at it is fine.

And Nick1962 above apparently has found the improvement he was looking for.

We understand exactly. We just don't agree. There's a difference.

To new LG owners:

If you don't want to fool with a meter.

1) Set your picture mode to Expert1.
2) Set the Color temp to Warm.
3) Enjoy.

The odds of you "improving" the picture's greyscale without meter assistance are about the same as winning the lottery or having a room full of chimpanzees produce the collected works of Shakesphere by randomly banging on typewriters.

That is all ... Keep calm ...

On my LK450 color temp 'warm' is terrible, the picture becomes extremely yellow. The picture is OK on color temp 'medium', but without a BluRay player for using the AVS Disc (or similar) and proper calibration hardware - for me - it's quite senseless to play around with the color, tint, contrast and brightness settings.

To New Owners: Read the posts in this thread and decide for yourselves what you wish to try. The LG menu settings are there for you to get the most out of your TV and learn and use what you are comfortable with. Keep it simple if you wish or get a meter or purchase a calibration service.

Feel free to become familiar with any of the adjusts available on your new LG TV. Read your manual, articles online and determine what you are comfortable doing yourself.


1. To new owners of these great LG TVs, if you find your TV's picture has a colored tint to it with B&W material or an all white screen has red, green, yellow/green, or blue tints to it; you can check the Method setting in the Expert Picture menu and select 2-Point Method as indicated a few posts above.

Calibration Proposal

Good morning everyone (or good afternoon depending on your geographic location), and hello to djams. Nice to see you again.

This has been another useless argument but with good information from both sides. How about if we agree on some terminology. Calibration is done with meters. Accurate Picture Adjustments are done with calibration disks without the use of meters. APAs (I like making up terms ), if done correctly, can get one very close to a calibrated picture but if you are intent on having a calibrated set, then the use of meters is essential. That way we can discuss the merits of both in relationship to the needs of the user without entering into yet, another pissing match. When we refer to our calibrated sets, we could put calibrated in quotes to indicate that it was done via the APA method as opposed to calibrated, without quotes, to indicate a meter was used in conjunction with software. Maybe then, for those of us who post a lot about calibration, we will understand where each other is coming from and hopefully minimize the acrimonious discussions that eventually ensue. It also may be helpful for new folks wanting to get the best pq but can't afford meters or a professional calibration service. Understanding the difference between the two is step one on the road to the best possible pq that is reasonable. And, on to more important things, the 49ers were just awesome yesterday!

The only difference is of degree. To you and some others, only a calibrated "accurate" picture with use of a meter is acceptable and you do not accept that a decent and satisfying picture CAN be obtained without one and is fine for others.

To others, helping to get that decent and satisfactory picture quality as good as they can without purchasing a meter or calibration service is also acceptable to many. Visual improvement is all that is desired for many and how to use the available user controls can help owners do that. Some folks have trouble just with the user controls and understanding them. For them, using a meter is both a complication and an unnecessary expense.


That is all .. . .

I tried the method last night and it didn't seem to help. I exchanged the tv out this morning and the new set doesn't seem to have the issue at all. Black screens seem to be all dark and uniform. Thanks for the advice.

That would have been my choice. . exchange as well.

Nice to hear you've found a TV with no issues. It is disappointing that all brands still seem to have one issue or another at times. But when you get a "good" one. . .. Life Is Good. . . or so it says each time I turn on my TV.

Well, I used a version of the settings listed here (with a few changes - see underlined comments) on a 42/520 and it seems great. I watched it for a few hours on various HD programs (no Blu-ray) before I gave it to my mom. She loves it. I realize using someone else's settings aren't optimal but it got the TV into the ballpark for my eyes.

BTW, the TV in my theater room is a 65 inch CRT Mits that was professionally calibrated so I know the difference between a Calibration and an APA (see otto's post).

Here is what I ended up with:


HDMI Input Set for Cable Input

ISF Expert Baseline 1

Energy Saving Off for Day Time ( Minimum or Medium at night)

Range of Values based on user reports.

Backlight 41 (27-65) Higher setting causes wash out.
Contrast 86 (83-96) Higher setting causes white clip.
Brightness 56 (50-65) Higher setting causes wash out. – Using 60
H. Sharpness 54 (62-71) 50 is neutral, higher may cause halos
V, Sharpness 52 (55-64) 50 is neutral, higher may cause halos
Color 54 (42-59) 50 is neutral, higher may cause color bleed
Tint 0 (R3 - 0 )

Expert Control
Dynamic Contrast Off (Try Medium for more pop. Low or High causes black crush)
Noise Reduction Off
Dig Noise Reduction off
Black Level Low - Using Auto
Real Cinema Off
Color Gamut BT709 - Using SMPTE
Edge Enhancer Low
xvYCC Auto
Expert Pattern Off (normally)
Color Filter Off

Color Temperature Warm
Gamma 2.2

Method 10Point

Pattern Outer (Inner if you have no calibration DVD)

IRE 100 Luminance = 105

IRE Adj. Points
Revised 3-1-11
When you are in the second page of the Expert Menu, you step down to where "Method" is and change it from "2 Point" to "10 Point". Then enter in your IRE starting at 100, enter the R,G, B values, step back up to IRE 100 , Left arrow changing it to IRE 90, and enter it's values, etc.

R, G, B
100 -1, 0, 1
90 -2, 2, 5
80 0, 2, 4
70 1, 2, 2
60 2, 2, -5
50 2 -1, -2
40 2, 0, -2
30 2,-1, 2
20 1, 0, -2
10 -1, 0, 3
0 1,-2, 1

Color Management System

Red Color -13
Red Tint 7
Green Color -12
Green Tint -6
Blue Color -7
Blue Tint -6
Yellow Color -7
Yellow Tint -13
Cyan Color 2
Cyan Tint 4
Magenta Color -11
Magenta Tint 9

using medium is pretty much all you can do in that case

Btw, our eyes(or brain?) are very inaccurate when it comes to white, it seems. I'm using "Color Temp. - W40" and at first there was a slight yellow tint, but after a few days it became blindingly white without any tints I even thought i accidentally changed settings.