Official LG xxLK520 xxLK450 - Page 71

Thought I'd provide this link that defines the D65 white point well.

And here's yet another:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...ifference.html

And. . . yet another:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1344825


The confusion and conflict that arises seems to be related to the CCR of a color, verses that of a light source. And, confusion between the two. A standard "Warm White" CFL bulb is usually 2700K on it's label, a "Daylight" CFL bulb is labeled 6500K. So the 2700K is much more red/yellow than the 6500K when looking at them at the same time. And newly available 3500K, 5000K and 5500K are somewhere in between. A 6500K CFL bulb appears very blue compared to the 2700K, but not so much to the 5000K or even some 3500K CFL bulbs.

An old reference but still a valid one. However, in my case, I have no way of accurately verifying the color temperature of the bulb that I use as my bias light. I'm sure the CRI is less than 90 so the color temp may be not quite what it is listed on the packaging. I am then left to depend on my own eyes and viewing environment to determine "what looks good", so the accuracy comes down to a subjective evaluation, not a scientific one. I wish it weren't so, but for the majority of us who don't have accurate light measuring instrumentation, science can only take us so far until subjective interpretation comes into play.

I meant this as a reply to PlasmaPZ80U but Phase770B got there before I could hit the send button. My comment is in no way to be interpreted as an argument starter, just as an observation.

That's encouraging. Got two LK520s with DSE and it might be worth seeing if I can swap for the D630. I've only had the 2nd LK520 for a couple weeks, but the original purchase from best buy for the 1st one was a month and a half ago...hmm

There must be something with the 2011 production runs of the 520s cause I have an LD520 (2010) with none of the issues reported here

i think Snow on cloudy day is purple blue, abscence of green which is close to yellow.

I would highly encourage anyone new to use the cnet settings, or find a good calibrator if you have extra money as you can spend so much time adjusting worrying about the tv that you never watch the programs .

What looks good is many times what a person has to settle for. Also, the color of paint on the walls and ceiling will change the color temperature of any bias light reflected off of it too. Sooo. .. . And, as you've said, the CFL bulbs in the Home Depot may be plus or minus who knows how many degrees K. I've attempted measurement lighting color temp in a room and luminance is one thing , color temp is another. . . But I've tried a number of bulbs since Focus On Energy has CFL deals here for half price lately! I've settled for some "Bright White" which is not as blue as Daylight 6500K, but waaayy cooler than 2700K. Which brings up another conundrum. . . the higher the degrees Kelvin, the "bluer" or cooler the light looks. Which, to many people, sounds backwards, since thinking "warmer" might imply higher values.

Anyway. . .. interesting stuff and TV watching is a magnitude better than color sets years ago. . . by a long shot.

IF CNET settings work for you it is fortunate, but a better choice for new owners is to learn and use Disney WOW , AVS HD709,of Digital Video Essentials discs to do a Media Assisted Calibration on their TV.

Settings are highly dependent on an individual TV, room lighting, and other factors. CNET settings did not work for others on LK models nor on 2010 LD models. It's a crap shoot really.

Lk I had was reddish so a more red bulb (lower k)would be better for that tv, otherwise the blue bulb would make tv look more red.Then try and match the dark screen color adjustments to the color of the lighting in room.Most people's tv the dark screens looks more blue (although my lk was reddish in dark screens)than your lighting which is yellowy.Just a small decrease in blue.

Another point worth mentioning is that just because a display's grayscale is set to D65 across the entire brightness range doesn't mean all whites in TV program or movie will be pure D65. Snow in movies is often white mixed with blue and a little red and often movie credits are in a off-white color that is biased towards red. Actual subtitles in movies are typically pure white (D65), assuming they are white and not pure yellow (actually yellow, not yellow-white). My point here being that just because pure white is set to D65 doesn't mean you won't see much redder and much bluer whites in real program material. Not all whites in such content are meant to be displayed as pure white (D65).

That is a good point, and one that I think confuses someone who tries his/her hand at a calibration or accurate picture adjustment for the first time. Dialing in the grayscale to be dead-on-balls perfect and then have the source "screw up" the picture can be very disappointing after spending hours getting the settings to pass rec.709.

My cable on a number of channels if you look at a guy wearing a dark black suit there is a green tinge to it(either the show or the cable is greenish on dark scenes).If its like that on quite a number of channels,you can turn down the control that adjusts the dark screen greens,and possibly turn up the reds but careful with the red)

So there is turning down the blue dark screen adjustment to match yellow room lighting(if it is yellow).And there is also turning down the green dark screen adjustment because the cable company or tv show has.Finding a happy medium between them.Don't turn them down to much or you will lose the color.

That's one way of doing it

I mentioned before I raised the red up a bit in the light screens to match the reddish darks.If skin is to red maybe move tint toward green and see what that looks like.

You're better off to adjust your tv with a calibration disk like AVS HD709, WoW, or DVE, etc instead of constantly fiddling with the controls for every program and trying to do it by eye. At least with a disk you have patterns and instructions to adjust your set to rec.709 standards as best as you can without instruments. Let you eyes get used to it and then leave it, unless you're a constant tweaker

After doing it for a long time by eye I agree.I have video essentials disc.There was some helpful things on it.Not sure how helpful color calibrating was on it.Maybe I didn't follow the directions.Cant remember.Been a few years since using it.And also does it not look different using DVD player vs cable vision?

Don't think there was anything for color balance,10 point balance or color space etc. on video essentials.

D65 lighting is one of those things that you eventually get use to. Although, it's true that you have to overcome a few hundred thousand years worth of evolution/conditioning from sitting around campfires and candle light. After all, it is bluer and "brighter" than midday sunlight. I had to laugh when my sister-in-law asked,"Why is it so bright in here?," when the only light in the room was a 60W equivalent D65 CFL.

If anyone is old enough to remember using high-speed film indoors without flash, you'll see just how bad color rendering can be under under "warm-white."

But we digress ...

For evening TV viewing my only light source (other than the TV) is the D65 bias light behind the set.

Try the AVS HD709 disk. It's a free download from AVS. You can burn it as a regular DVD but you need to play it back on a BD player.

I could never find a 60W equivalent (15W) CFL rated at D65. 5500k is the best I could find in a round, regular screw socket bulb. Works fine for us though.

Well at the risk of. . . . .

I think you would find a 6500K CFL lamp much bluer. They call these D6500K "Daylight" bulbs and they are suspiciously blue like the old "cool white" florescent tubes. At Home Depot, they have a display you can put your hand under 4 different bulbs. One is incandescent , a CFL Warm White (2700K) , a CFL Brite White (3500K), and a CFL Daylight (6500K).

Well, today is a sunny day so I can put my hand out under the direct sun and see natural fleshtones. I was just in the Home Depot this morning and did the "hand test" again. The incandescent was obviously very red/yellow with the CFL Warm White (2700K) a bit cooler. . . skin on hand looked a bit pinker rather than yellow/red. Under the Brite White (D3500K) it was definitely more pinkish, but now more my natural skin color.

Under the CFL "Daylight" (D6500K) my skin looked pinkish/blue and not natural at all. Much like you would look under Cool White florescent tubes in a store or some working environments. Now . .. I have to ask, why would you want such an unnatural bluish light behind your TV when it is hard on your eyes in a working environment and taints skin tones an unnatural blue/pink? I use D6500 Daylight bulbs in my basement work shop and garage. In the the living room, it would be bright alright. And also harsh and contributes to eye strain to me, where the D3500 Brite White does not.

So then, I no longer sit around camp fires or live in a cave, and if I have to "get used" to a light temperature that causes me distraction and eye strain, then I guess it isn't going to happen. I'm fine in my work shop where I NEED lot's of bright (even blue) light to do intricate work. But myself and family prefer otherwise in the living room.

One more thing. The paint department in Home Depot and other stores have a special area to view color chips so a person can see how the color will most closely look in daytime lighting coming into your windows at home. And the light is NOT a D6500K source. And... go to any Macy's, Boston Store or high end cosmetics stores and the LAST thing you will see is a light source that makes women's skin tones look pinkish/blue. They want to see how they look outside under natural light and it isn't like a red lobster or little pink piglet.

Quoted from the article below:
"In order to see all variants in temperature (and values) correctly, the skin should be examined under full spectrum white light spill ( a minimum of 3200 degress Kelvin up to 5500 degrees Kelvin) or roughly the equivalent of noon day sun. This white light reveals accurate colors in unfiltered bloom to the eye."

So Otto, it looks like you and I are in the ball park. 3200K to 5500K. Never mentions 6500K.

HERE. v v v . . is a good article:

 

temp_values_in_skin_tones.pdf 28.1953125k . file

Odd ... lot's of them around here. Wallyworld, Lowes ... They're almost always in a blue package labeled "Daylight" ... I can't vouch for the CRI though probably 75-85ish.

That's not the point. The point is to avoid having conflicting references wrt color rendering. I'd be willing to bet that causes more eye-strain and headaches.

Your brain can auto-correct color to a certain degree. To your eye/brain, colors will look "normal" under warm-white (2500K ish) but take a picture under those conditions and you'll see just how ruddy-brownish the room is.

OTOH, I suspect that prolonged use of D65 for "room lighting" will completely hose one's natural circadian (sic?) rhythm.

Did you miss the part about how the 6500K did give us eye strain??? You are assuming I never tried using them.

I've been using an indirect, soft bias lighting since 1988. I had to because of the low light output RPTVs had back then, and , a bias light always worked even before that. I know what works for me and my family. . . and what doesn't.


Also, back in the late 80's and early 90's when "Circle-line" round floresent became available with screw in bases, people avoided them like the plaque because of eye strain and they were/are the "Cool White" temperature close to the now available 6500K CFL bulbs.

Then it was probably too bright for a bias light. Plus, I interpreted your statement as meaning you had other lights on in the room besides the TV and the bias light.

I *agree* that D65 may be "too much" for use as general room lighting. Like I said, it goes against millions of years worth of evolution to see "daylight" in the middle of the night.

PS: So-called "Cool White" is normally around 4000K (ish)

We don't know if you implemented the technique of bias lighting correctly in your home video system. It is common practice for video colorists to provide ambient lighting that matches the white point of their monitor. Here is an updated list of current confirmed proponents and users of D65 and 6500K bias lighting from the international community of experts in the field of video imaging:

The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE)
The International Organization for Standardization (ISO)
The International Telecommunications Union (ITU)
The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Industrial Light and Magic (ILM)
The Imaging Science Foundation (ISF)
THX, Ltd.
Electronic Arts (EA)
Deluxe
Microsoft Corporation
Image Entertainment
Universal Studios
PostWorks
Joe Kane Productions
Ovation Multimedia
DisplayMate Technologies
CNET Labs
Radical Games
Factor5 Studios
High Moon Studios
CinRam
Rev13 Films
Advanced Television Evaluation Lab- Communications Research Centre- Canada
Apple Corporation
Filet Post Production
Post and Beam
Cheyenne Mtn. Entertainment
Zombie Studios
CBS Television
Deluxe Digital Studios
Splice Here
Slant Six Games
New Hat LLC
Roush Media
Samsung Germany
Digital Film Lab- Denmark
Nice Shoes, VFX New York
Desperate Housewives, Editorial
Rockhopper Post
Live Nation Studios
LionAV Consultants
Avical
Technicolor-NY
Technicolor-Canada
Max Post
Bandito Brothers Studio
Chainsaw Edit
Twin Cities Public Television
Colorflow Post
ABC Television
The Moving Picture Company
Dolby Labs
Dreamworks Animation
Univ. of Quebec at Montreal
No6 Studios
UberMedia-Canada
Powderhouse Productions
Colorama
ColorWorkz
IndieColor
Simplexity Digital Post
The Mews-London
Contact Studios
Blue Post-Australia
The Cutting Room
Shapeshifter Post
Fading Signal
Oroboros Films
Keystone Pictures-Canada
90 Degrees West
Blizzard Entertainment
Jam Edit
Hotpixel Post
Special When Lit
Flanders Scientific
Ed Kulzer Post
Out Of The Blue NY
Blacklist Productions
Vision On
Pure
Van Hurkman Productions
Ninja Goldfish
Color Image Post
Red Futon Films
235 Studios
Pinata Studios
Flavour Productions-Portugal
Color Cafe
Greenasia Production Co.-Thailand
SRJ Media Services
Encore Hollywood
Headquarters Post
Light Of Day Studio
Jupiter Entertainment
Digital Post Ink
Films In Motion
Matero Productions
MTI Film
POSTDIGITAL
Buck NY
echoblack productions
Studio Element
Virginia Tech
Independent Edit
Engineering & Consulting Services
Film Tek: Lost Planet Editorial
Oblique FX-Canada
Whipping Post Services
McIntosh Productions
Wildbrain Animation Studio
Herzog & Company
Digital Cave Media
Westwind Media
Comprehensive Technical Group
Running Man Post
Post-Op Media
Red Echo Post
David Snow Design
The Criterion Collection
Junebug AVO
Fancy Film
UBC Digital Multimedia Lab- Canada
Quanti Studios
Therapy Studios
Shed Media
Broadcast Equipment Corp.
Alpern, LLC
m ss ng p eces
North West Digital- Canada
Crayon- Australia
Showcase Productions
Stick Figure Productions
Remedy Editorial
Bella Facie Sports Media
School Of Visual Arts NY
East Coast Cine Services- Canada
Kong Gulerod Film- Denmark
Digital Cut, Inc.
Frame Linear
Studio Element- Canada
EditLab
BYTEMonkeys
Switch FX, Inc.
Digilab Services- UK

There are exceptions to the norm when it comes to human visual perception. However, bias lighting implemented according to decades of internationally agreed upon video industry recommended practice is well proven to preserve image fidelity and enhance viewer comfort. Here is a "sticky" thread which outlines correct practice and the associated benefits: 'D65 Video Bias Lighting- Fundamental Theory And Practice'

Best regards and beautiful pictures,
G. Alan Brown, President
CinemaQuest, Inc.
A Lion AV Consultants Affiliate

"Advancing the art and science of electronic imaging"

Yes, Cool White at 4000K IS closer to the way too cool Daylight 6500K.

The Brite White is as far as I can and will go for the previous reason I mentioned.

And as far as the bias light being "too bright". . . well, First. . the same wattage Brite White is not too much light. . . and Second. . . one 13 watt CFL bulb behind a 46" LCD and an entertainment center with twin 6 foot towers and in a 27' x 16" room with 10 foot ceiling is not very much light.

Besides. . . no one else HAS to agree that this is what works for me and my family. I have no problem at all if some one else wants to use 6500K bulbs. So no convincing is needed here. _

Bottom line. . . it is working for my and my family. That's enough for me. I understand about "industry best practices" and "viewing science" and all the many other die hard "rules" the experts have decided on. This is just an area where I differ. Garrish, blue/white florescent light. . . indirect or not gives me and many other people headaches and eye strain. And the article I posted earlier also contains other evidence. It would seem 3200K to 5500K is more the ideal.

Yes George. . . we have seen the long list of advertising you have posted scores of time. Any excuse I guess.....

And , no, I don't accept it as a reason to "educate and clarify". You are WELL aware that I have seen this list numerous times and read many, many articles regarding said subject. It is simply my choice to do so with the lighting I have. You an no one else HAS to agree. I have no problem if someone wants to use a 6500K bulb. . . and no one should have a problem if I chose not too.

Who are you referring to as "we?"

"Advertising?" Untrue. If you mean advocating imaging industry best practices, you would be right. Where did I mention any specific product or service?

"Scores?" Untrue. You choose to distort when you accuse. Prove it.

"Any excuse?" Untrue. You're distorting again. Only one excuse- setting the record straight on a subject I have dedicated over a decade of research to. There is no shortage of misinformation in this and other forums. When it comes to "AV Science," there is a continuing need to educate consumers regarding video best practices. Each viewer can deviate from recommended practices as they wish. However, image fidelity requires following consistent standards to avoid altering/distorting the original program.

"I have no problem if someone wants to use a 6500K bulb." You sure seem to. You are known on many occasions to advocate for differing personal preference when 6500K/D65 bias lighting is brought up. You are not satisfied with just doing it your own way, are you? You appear to enjoy serving as the regular naysayer on this topic.

"No one should have a problem if I chose not too." I don't have a problem if you choose not to follow best practices. What inspires my intervention is when erroneous information is being publicly promoted about a subject that is important to me. Video is a standards-based medium and technology. Consumers will get much more consistent quality from their purchasing and viewing experiences as they understand this factor better. Owners of LG and every other brand of HDTV will always get more from their viewing experience the closer they come to implementing video industry best practices correctly.

You obviously sought this avenue out to attack anyone having a different view or experience than what you promote. I am not marketing anything, nor have I derided any product or source of technical information.

As I said in my first post #2138 regarding this subject :

We have a Lowes's here, and I did try a "Daylight" one, but I don't remember what the exact temp was. All I remember is that it seemed too "blue" on my off-white walls and yeah, the CRI was unknown. What I'd like to find is an LED screw-type bulb just because of the energy savings (the bias light is on every evening), and the no-warm up, but they are expensive. We are slowly replacing the house lights with LEDs and I really like them, but only when they are on sale. However, finding one at 5500k+ is difficult. A continuing weekend project....

Those of us vocal and private individuals who have been following your posts in the DisplayCal Forums for quite some time.

Who may I ask you is the "we" in your post #2162 above? Just curious.

I don't find any given color temp more or less straining to my eyes. The light output from the bulb(s) themselves determine that. In fact, the placement of the light source also matters since ultimately it is about how much light reaches your eyes not just the amount directly output from the bulb. We are all free to do what we want regarding lighting in our homes and also more specifically bias lighting. However, there are standards and guidelines for good/best practices by SMPTE. They exist for those who want to follow them and gain the full benefit that they provide. Even if the best practices aren't followed 100%, it's still possible to follow them to whatever extent your budget and preferences allow as good practices might not be the best ones but they are still way better than having a setup that is completely off.